romans8

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  1. romans8

    Was Jesus married

    How is the Holy Spirit God without eternal marriage?
  2. romans8

    The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?

    Hi Traveler, After viewing some church links relating to this Eden epoch, I see that we all suffer from an internal conflict, one between the spirit and the flesh. I do not think we can always apply human logic to God's justice. This is from the gospel topic "Fall of Adam and Eve" As descendants of Adam and Eve, we inherit a fallen condition during mortality (see Alma 42:5–9, 14). We are separated from the presence of the Lord and subject to physical death. We are also placed in a state of opposition, in which we are tested by the difficulties of life and the temptations of the adversary (see 2 Nephi 2:11–14; Doctrine and Covenants 29:39; Moses 6:48–49). In this fallen condition, we have a conflict within us. We are spirit children of God, with the potential to be "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). However, "we are unworthy before [God]; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually" (Ether 3:2). We need to strive continually to overcome unrighteous passions and desires. Repeating the words of an angel, King Benjamin said, "The natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam." King Benjamin warned that in this natural, or fallen, state, each person will be an enemy to God forever "unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father" (Mosiah 3:19). The idea of being inflicted in the above verse seems to have a negative connotation, as if a punishment or a hardship to strengthen us or teach us something. The disciplining/punishing aspect of the father/son interaction is taught more fully in Hebrews 12:7-11. I found several other references of justice in the Book of Mormon. "The devil beguiled our first parents. This was the cause of their fall and all mankind becoming carnal, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil" (Mosiah 16:3). "Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state" (Alma 42:10). The Eden epoch, that seems to be problematic for you, also troubled Alma's son. He could not understand the concept of God's justice in punishment so his father explained using the primary example of Adam and Eve. "And now, my son, I perceive there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind, which ye cannot understand- which is concerning the justice of God in the punishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery. Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken-yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life" (Alma 42:1-2). "Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God" (Alma 42:13). "Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul" (Alma 42:16).
  3. romans8

    The second coming is in March

    What is the meaning of this verse? "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days" So the church of God (assuming the identity mentioned in the JST and not an apostate church) is protected by God, but who is feeding her and for how long?
  4. romans8

    The second coming is in March

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a unique interpretation of Revelation 12. JST, Revelation 12:7 - And the dragon prevailed not against Michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains, and brought forth the kingdom of our God and his Christ. JST, Revelation 5:6 - And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having twelve horns and twelve eyes, which are the twelve servants of God, sent forth into all the earth. The woman is the church of God and the twelve stars are the Twelve Apostles. It does not identify the moon and the sun. I would not agree that the church of God gives birth to Christ, but instead Christ gives birth to the church. The Interlinear Greek has a different reading of Revelation 5:6 https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev5.pdf "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth".
  5. romans8

    The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?

    I know, but that is what he believes. I am praying for him. The church should not use harsh punitive measures towards non-Christians and heretics. This should be left to the Law. If we continue to act in sinful ways and do not repent, God disciplines (punishes) us. Hebrews 12:7-11 says, "If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby". That makes sense. What do you believe were the first events recorded in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon which showed the justice of God in the consequence of a person making a bad choice?
  6. romans8

    The second coming is in March

    Some interpret the woman of Revelation 12 as being Israel, according to Joseph's dream (Genesis 37:9-11). In that dream, the sun represented Jacob, the moon represented Joseph’s mother Rachel, and the eleven stars were the sons of Israel which bowed down to Joseph. In this sign with twelve stars, Joseph is now among the other tribes of Israel.
  7. romans8

    The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?

    I agree. The choice is ultimately ours even though I never met someone who would admit that he chose to go there. My brother always compares himself to the vilest of sinners as proof that he does not deserve to go where God is not.
  8. romans8

    The second coming is in March

    About these verses 95 And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled; 96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him. 97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven Does verse 97 happen before verse 96?
  9. romans8

    The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?

    I hope with you that God does not cause someone to endure endless misery for those who do not repent and change their ways but what I read in this church manual has me worried. https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-18?lang=eng The torment of the wicked is to know they have come short of the glory they might have enjoyed. “God has decreed that all who will not obey His voice shall not escape the damnation of hell. What is the damnation of hell? To go with that society who have not obeyed His commands. … I know that all men will be damned if they do not come in the way which He hath opened, and this is the way marked out by the word of the Lord." "The great misery of departed spirits in the world of spirits, where they go after death, is to know that they come short of the glory that others enjoy and that they might have enjoyed themselves, and they are their own accusers." "There is no pain so awful as that of suspense. This is the punishment of the wicked; their doubt, anxiety and suspense cause weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth." "A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone [see Revelation 21:8]. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. I say, so is the torment of man. … " Some shall rise to the everlasting burnings of God, for God dwells in everlasting burnings, and some shall rise to the damnation of their own filthiness, which is as exquisite a torment as the lake of fire and brimstone."
  10. romans8

    The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?

    I am not sure where you are getting that incorrect concept from. God does not delight in making people suffer or making them miserable. I am not aware of anyone who delights when God punishes people. Despite the many biblical passages which refer to God punishing people for their sins, we also find it in the Book of Mormon. I will give just two examples. 2 Nephi 23:11 - "And I will punish the world for evil, and the wicked for their iniquity". Mosiah 2:33 - "For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge". Then we have the Second Article of Faith - "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression". Of these 3 references, I see God is the punisher. What is your opinion? Matteo
  11. romans8

    The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?

    I was looking at Isaiah 53:4-6 to support my view. "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all". Jesus was smitten of God, taking our place. That is mercy and love to satisfy the demands of justice. Do you believe God punishes you for transgressions?
  12. romans8

    The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?

    Thank you Laronius. To prevent members from misinterpreting, are there teachings by leaders which clarify the punishments upon Adam and Eve in the episode of the Fall? Matteo
  13. romans8

    The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?

    Sorry to have misquoted you. That was not my intention. Based on the definition of punishment that I mentioned earlier, which parts of my list did you agree or disagree with? Matteo
  14. romans8

    The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?

    What about my list on the punishments upon Adam and Eve did you agree or disagree on? If you list some others, then I can comment. Upon eating from the forbidden tree, I see that Adam refused to take responsibility for his action. He indirectly blamed God for giving him the woman and directly blamed Eve for giving him the fruit. Eve also refused to take responsibility and put the blame on the serpent. When do you believe Adam and Eve awoke themselves and turned themselves around because of their punishment? What exactly was their first punishment and what brought it about? I have been punished for disobedience to God. But I have never looked back and said I was happy to have disobeyed God because I learned from my mistake. Take for example driving a car. Driving a car in Zermatt is not permitted. It's against the law. Now suppose I drive my car there and receive a $200 Franc fine. I have to go to court, fill in some paper work, and eventually pay the fine to the clerk. I gained some knowledge and experience - I learn where the court is located - I learn how to fill in the paper work - I learn how to get myself off the record so I had nothing outstanding against me - and I learn that in some cases I can do this over the Internet instead of visiting the court personally. In hindsight, it would have been better if I followed the law and not broken it. The knowledge that I gained by my disobedience were not blessings from God. It was just the result of my learning what happens when I do what I am not supposed to do. I think in the United States this is referred to something like going to the school of hard knocks. Would you give me one example when God blessed you for disobeying Him? If my parents tell me not to touch the hot stove because I will get burned/hurt and I touch it and get burned/hurt, am I blessed by my parents for learning not to touch a hot stove in the future? I would say no. Should I also disobey my parents on the handling of hot water, pour that on my hand, so that I can get experience of what it feels like to get burned and to learn the lesson not to do that again? I would say no. Jesus took our place. He was punished (bruised) for our transgressions so that we would not experience the wrath of God on us for sin. Jesus was not doing anything wrong. Was this a blessing? Yes. For Christ's obedience; not for our disobedience. Was this a blessing in disguise? Not in the sense of an Atonement based on our wilfull disobedience. I could answer that question with another similar one. Should I sin more so that I can get more knowledge and experience so that God can cleanse more of my sin by His Atonement? No. Here is something that I would consider a blessing in disguise. I apply for a job that I really like. I am competing with about 20 other applicants and I don't get the job. A week later I apply for another job, which ends up being better than the first job that I failed to get. This is what I see as a blessing in disguise. Was it based on obedience? No. On disobedience? No. On God knowing what is better for me? Yes.
  15. romans8

    The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?

    From https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/punishment Suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution A penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure I see several of these in the Fall. - They became mortal (Genesis 2:!7) - Adam felt fear (Genesis 3:10). - The relationship between Adam and Eve changed. Adam would rule over Eve. Her desire would be to her husband (verse 16). - Eve would bring forth children in sorrow (verse 16) - The ground was cursed and in sorrow would Adam eat of its produce (verse 17) - Thorns and thistles would mare the earth's produce (verse 17) - Adam would have to work hard for food (verse 18). - They were expelled from the garden and God's presence (verses 23-24) Matteo