romans8

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Everything posted by romans8

  1. i would say that had the Fall not occurred, child-bearing would not entail the sorrow brought upon by it. Also, the relationship between her and Adam would not have changed as the latter part of Genesis 3:16 refers to. I think the first part of verse 16 applies initially to Eve, and then extends to all women who would have husbands and give birth to children. The same would be said of the men after Adam in verse 17. In their fallen state, they could eventually be redeemed and experience joy. But should they commit further evil? No. Or maybe verses 16 and 17 could be interpreted to mean they have their effects on Adam and Eve only. Like Moses 5:10-11 might be said that transgression enabled Adam and Eve to gain the ability to have children whereas subsequent parents did not have to transgress God's command to gain this ability to procreate. Regarding the second question. The Fall brought upon all mankind (starting with Adam and Eve and their first children) a separation from God. We live in a broken world, filled with mental and physical suffering. Even nature and the animal kingdom was harmed in the Fall. I view their change of existence as a punishment for disobedience. Even though their descendants are not directly punished for their sin, they do suffer the consequences thereof. I found some interpretation of this at https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/how-are-women-saved-through-childbearing I do not necessarily agree with all of it. "Even though many women today and in history may feel the ongoing effects of the curse in the pains of childbirth and the lifelong wounds that it may leave, I urge all of our Christian sisters not to despair. God’s word to you is hope, not curse. God’s plan for you is salvation, not destruction. Yes, just as the man must work out his salvation through the cursed futilities and miseries of his labor (Genesis 3:18–19), millions of women must find her salvation through the pains and miseries of childbearing. The path of salvation is the same for her as for all the saints: continuing in faith and love and holiness, with self-control". I find the concept of the curse of Adam mentioned in Moroni 8. "Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me". What curse of Adam is taken from little children in Christ?
  2. What changed in Eve's child-bearing and her relationship with Adam when God said "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee"?
  3. I am here to understand some LDS beliefs. If you take my questions the wrong way, then kindly excuse me. If I were to ever quote something from a church teaching manual that may be contrary to a belief you hold dear, then we can agree to disagree.
  4. When was the church of the devil founded and then behave as 1 Nephi 13:4-9 describes?
  5. 2 Nephi 2:15-16 mentions opposition and enticement. "And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, ... it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter. Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other" I can see that Eve was enticed to eat the forbidden fruit but were Adam and Eve ever enticed to eat from the tree of life and all the other permitted trees, and if yes, by whom? In light of what Adam and Eve said in Moses 5:10-11, did they eventually come to view the forbidden tree as more sweet than bitter? Did Nephi also come to view the tree more sweet than bitter if it was the means for them to experience joy, gain the ability to procreate, and to start their progression? Matteo
  6. For me , it would mean a religious organization.
  7. Did the persons mentioned in the Book of Mormon have different concepts as to what "church" represented, for example 2 Nephi 28:3,12,18 and Mosiah 25:19,21?
  8. 1 Nephi 14:10 seems like a generalization between one church and every other false religious system. "And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth". 1 Nephi 13:34 and 1 Nephi 14:17 even mention there being other harlots, with the great and abominable church being like a mother figure. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1985/10/the-only-true-church?lang=eng "One doctrine presents a particular challenge. It is our firm conviction that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is, as the revelations state, “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth.” (D&C 1:30.) "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof" (First Vision account).
  9. I do not believe I was stretching. I believe it is reasonable to assume they were enjoying their fellowship with God and each other in the marriage relationship. As for narrative, what are your thoughts on these LDS teachings on the Garden of Eden. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-student-manual-genesis-2-samuel/genesis-3-the-fall?lang=eng The accounts in both Moses and Genesis state only that Satan approached Eve, but latter-day revelation records that he first approached Adam and was refused. Eve, however, was deceived by Satan and partook. Knowing that she would be driven out and separated from him, Adam then partook. Paul the Apostle wrote of the Fall, "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" (1 Timothy 2:14). I could not find LDS revelations which record: - Satan first approached Adam and was refused. - Adam knew Eve would be driven out from the Garden of Eden. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-stories-2022/adam-and-eve?lang=eng God our Heavenly Father and the Lord Jesus Christ visited them and talked to them. God let them eat the fruit of every tree but one. If they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they would have to leave the garden and would eventually die. God and the Lord visited them, but Adam and Eve were afraid and hid. God asked if they had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve promised to obey all of God’s commandments. I am not aware of a scripture which says: - Heavenly Father and Jesus visited them in the Garden before the Fall. - They were pre-warned about having to leave the Garden if they ate from the forbidden tree. - Heavenly Father and Jesus visited them in the Garden after they realized they were naked. - Adam and Eve made such a promise.
  10. I believe the command was sufficient enough and he had already warned them about the punishment of death. From my reading of Moses 3:17, God forbade Adam from eating and he reinforced it with a reminder. "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die". Like Adam and Eve, we are free to choose for ourselves to obey or disobey the commandments.
  11. Do you believe Adam and Eve had meaning and joy in their fellowship with each other and God (through worship) in the Garden before the Fall and with what God had initially tasked them with? For the later, I refer to Genesis 1:26,28 and 2:15,18
  12. What are the attempts by Adam and Eve to cover their nakedness with the fig leaves representative of? Are the aspects of nakedness and fig leaves literal or figurative?
  13. Part of it, I believe, involves his deception to her that she would not die. Another involves the temptation for her to become like God. Maybe another could be that he tricked her into believing God was withholding something from her that she believed she truly deserved. I found a rather lengthy exposition written by S.K. here. There is a connection to something Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 11:3.
  14. I am reading the first part of this chapter and have some difficulty understanding its meaning. Rather than break it up into separate threads, it might be easier to group the questions into the same thread. #1 - Opposition. "For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility". Were Adam and Eve considered dead because they had neither happiness/joy nor misery before the Fall? #2 - The timing of their ability to act for themselves. "Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other". Were Adam and Eve able to act for themselves and perform anything God had tasked them with and to eat from any of the permitted trees *before* Satan enticed Eve to eat from the forbidden tree? Or could they only act for themselves after being enticed by Satan? #3 - The timing of their ability to act for themselves is again mentioned in Alma 12:31. "Wherefore, he gave commandments unto men, they having first transgressed the first commandments as to things which were temporal, and becoming as gods, knowing good from evil, placing themselves in a state to act, or being placed in a state to act according to their wills and pleasures, whether to do evil or to do good" Did they place themselves in a state to act after they ate from the forbidden fruit or were they already in a God-given state to act to obey or disobey before the Fall? What commandments (plural) did they transgress to become as gods? #4 - Becoming as gods. Is there a difference in doctrine by translating it "as Gods" in Alma 12:31 (1981 Book of Mormon which I have) versus the current "as gods" (in the online version)?
  15. What parts of the Garden of Eden narrative do you believe are literal and not figurative?
  16. Did the two cherubims on the mercy seat each have 4 faces, 4 wings, and hands under their wings as Ezekiel 10:21 describes? If yes, what do these represent?
  17. How do you understand Alma 42:3 and Moses 4:31? "Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit". "So I drove out the man, and I placed at the east of the Garden of Eden, cherubim and a flaming sword, which turned every way to keep the way of the tree of life". Do you believe Jesus is the one and only literal angel placed there to prevent Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life or were there other literal angels there with him? Or is this an unknown angel?
  18. I was referring to all the trees mentioned in Genesis 2:16-17 and 3:2.
  19. In your analogy, is the Cherubim and flaming sword literal representations of a person or object or are they symbolic representation of a non-person or non-object? What do all the other trees God created for Adam and Eve represent?
  20. What about all the other trees?
  21. If it was good to them, why did they feel fear and shame?
  22. All the dispersed Ukrainians we met had a profound sadness in their eyes. They left homeland and husbands/fathers. While we provide food, shelter, and comfort to them, they still yearn to return to the only home they ever had and to hopefully be reunited with their loved ones. As Ukraine survived and recovered after the second World War, let's hope the recovery happens again. It will take time, prayer, and God's provision. I especially note the strength and resiliency of their children with all they have gone through. It is almost like they are battle hardened with everything that has happened throughout their history.
  23. I was away for a while dealing with family matters in lieu of what is going on in Ukraine. Things have settled down a bit but we are still doing hospitality work with the hurting.
  24. In Exodus 25:18-22, I got the impression that you believe the cherubs really do not have wings but that wings is symbolic of power or authority and that face to face means their are not in unison but in opposition. I will assume you believe Jesus has more power/authority than Satan. If you look at the construction of the mercy seat as described in Exodus, what would give you the impression that the two cherubs were unequal in power or authority? Would you always be able to tell which left or right cherub was the advocate cherub as you faced the mercy seat from the other side, assuming it was rectangular?
  25. Regarding this March 2021 Liahona article. "While waiting to have children, I learned that I could multiply and replenish the earth in other ways". "During my ups and downs, I have found myself often reflecting on the commandment given to Adam and Eve. We believe that this commandment remains in full force today and that we are expected to follow it. However, my husband and I haven't yet been able to. But neither could Adam and Eve, at first. So what did they do? The only thing they knew how-they took care of the garden. While I don't live in the Garden of Eden, I do live in the garden of the earth, the garden of the Netherlands, the garden of my family, and the garden of my ward. These are my gardens that the Lord has asked me to multiply and replenish". When God gave the commandment to be fruitful and multiply, did he only have procreation in mind or were Adam and Eve being fruitful and multiplying by taking care of the plants and trees in the Garden of Eden? Can this commandment be applied to married couples or single people who do not or cannot have children or who remain single? Matteo