romans8

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Everything posted by romans8

  1. How do you understand these teachings from Joseph Smith? Maybe the misery will overpower the happiness. “God has decreed that all who will not obey His voice shall not escape the damnation of hell. What is the damnation of hell? To go with that society who have not obeyed His commands. . . . I know that all men will be damned if they do not come in the way which He hath opened, and this is the way marked out by the word of the Lord.” “The great misery of departed spirits in the world of spirits, where they go after death, is to know that they come short of the glory that others enjoy and that they might have enjoyed themselves, and they are their own accusers.” “There is no pain so awful as that of suspense. This is the punishment of the wicked; their doubt, anxiety and suspense cause weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.” “A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone [see Revelation 21:8]. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. I say, so is the torment of man. . . . “. . . Some shall rise to the everlasting burnings of God, for God dwells in everlasting burnings, and some shall rise to the damnation of their own filthiness, which is as exquisite a torment as the lake of fire and brimstone.”
  2. If Adam and Eve were not held responsible for what they did, then why does the church teach Adam and Eve and their descendants were under the curse? When I read Alma 42:1-2, Adam and Eve are used as an example to reveal the justice of God and the punishment of the sinner. 2 Nephi 26:3 says "And after the Messiah shall come there shall be signs given unto my people of his birth, and also of his death and resurrection; and great and terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish; and they perish because they cast out the prophets, and the saints, and stone them, and slay them; wherefore the cry of the blood of the saints shall ascend up to God from the ground against them" Why does it say the wicked would perish when 3 Nephi 8:25 says the women and children of Moronihah were destroyed but the men, who killed and stoned the prophets, were spared"?
  3. No. The Gospel Principles just mentioned a qualifier. The "a god" part.
  4. From the previous edition of Gospel Principles: All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like him—a god. He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).
  5. D&C 138:20-21 mentions this. "But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised; Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face". After reading Mosiah 2:38-39, Alma 40:11-14,26, and Alma 41:2-4,10, it is hard to see those in darkness (from D&C 138) coming forth to inherit happiness instead of misery.
  6. It was not a matter of who (God or Satan) was lying. God had already told them not to eat from the forbidden tree. Based on everything God had given them already, there was no reason for them to suspect God was lying. Cain and Abel could have also been created by God like Adam was created initially (in a state of being in God's presence) but scripture reveals they were not. They were born to Adam and Eve (who were already in a fallen state) and so they inherited that state. I believe Adam and Eve , like the animals, already had the power to procreate before the Fall. I do not believe they gained this power by transgressing the command. God gave Cain and Abel the ability to live, as He does with all humans and all life forms. A church president taught this curse fell on all their descendants. But Adam, in breaking the law, himself became subject to the curse, and being under the curse could not atone, or undo what he had done. Neither could his children, for they also were under the curse, and it required one who was not subject to the curse to atone for that original sin. Moreover, since we were all under the curse, we were also powerless to atone for our individual sins. This church manual teaches the curse came upon everything else. The effects of the Fall were universal. Then came the curse upon the fruit, upon the vegetables, and upon our mother earth; and it came upon the creeping things, upon the grain in the field, the fish in the sea and upon all things pertaining to this earth” (“Instructions,” Deseret News, July 6, 1864, 318).
  7. Welcome to the forum. In addition to what others have mentioned, I believe the phrase child of God also describes a specific group of people in the spiritual sense, for Jesus referred to some as children of the devil. This is from Romans 8:14-17. I will bold the key parts. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
  8. Why is it Moroni when the Joseph Smith papers says the angel is Nephi? When I first looked upon <him> it I was afraid; but the fear soon left me: calling me by name, <he> said. that he was a messenger. sent from the presence of God to me. and that his name was Nephi.— that he had a work for me to do that my name
  9. How can baptism be a covenant for them when they rejected the gospel?
  10. Children are in danger every day despite any attempts to warn or protect them. Children could be killed, kidnapped, or harmed in other ways. My parents knew this before they ever conceived me. I suppose your logic would also make other parents (including you if you had children) of being complicit parents because they foreknew all these things and still decided to have children. As for Adam and Eve, they had nothing to fear from the serpent as long as they remained obedient to God. He had already warned them of the consequences of eating from the forbidden tree. Cain and Abel were born in a spiritually separated state from God because of what their parents did. God is not to blame for that.
  11. From what I have seen, the curse is much more universal. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-pearl-of-great-price-student-manual-2018/the-book-of-moses/moses-4-20-32?lang=eng Then came the curse upon the fruit, upon the vegetables, and upon our mother earth; and it came upon the creeping things, upon the grain in the field, the fish in the sea and upon all things pertaining to this earth” (“Instructions,” Deseret News, July 6, 1864, 318). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-joseph-fielding-smith/chapter-3-the-plan-of-salvation?lang=eng But Adam, in breaking the law, himself became subject to the curse, and being under the curse could not atone, or undo what he had done. Neither could his children, for they also were under the curse, and it required one who was not subject to the curse to atone for that original sin. Moreover, since we were all under the curse, we were also powerless to atone for our individual sins.
  12. The church does teach this as truth however. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1982/06/christ-and-the-creation.p2?lang=eng#p2 Christ is the Creator and Redeemer of worlds so numerous that they cannot be numbered by man. As to his infinite and eternal creative and redemptive enterprises the divine word attests: “And worlds without number have I created,” saith the Father, “and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. … But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you.” As to all of the other worlds of the Lord’s creating we know only that it is his work and his glory “to bring to pass”—through the Redeemer—“the immortality and eternal life” of all their inhabitants. (Moses 1:33, 35, 39.) In what is probably the most glorious vision given to mortals in this dispensation, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon saw “the Son, on the right hand of the Father,” and “heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.” (D&C 76:20, 23–24.) Christ is thus the Creator and the Redeemer. By him the worlds were made, and through his infinite atonement the inhabitants of those worlds are adopted into the divine family as heirs with himself.
  13. What about those who reject the gospel like the Plan of Salvation says of the terrestrial inhabitants?
  14. Does "a lesser degree of exaltation" = "without exaltation"?
  15. Based on your comments, my mom is complicit - she did not prepare me sufficiently. Indirectly punished because we are born in a fallen state due to their disobedience. What are the trees of Moses 4:7-9?
  16. My mom told me to never to touch a hot stove and I never disobeyed. As I grew old, I did disobey some of her other commands but I never was blessed by her for my disobedience to her.
  17. Those in paradise are saved in the kingdom of God (D&C 138:51-52) but I don't know what labors they continue to perform after they are resurrected. "These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, to enter into his Father’s kingdom, there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life, And continue thenceforth their labor as had been promised by the Lord, and be partakers of all blessings which were held in reserve for them that love him". Lesson 8 says "According to Lehi, what makes salvation possible in God's plan? (Students should identify the following: We can be saved only through the merits, mercy, and grace of Jesus Christ. You might share the following definition of what it means to be saved or to receive salvation: "Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom. With few exceptions this is the salvation of which the scriptures speak" In that sense, all the others abide without salvation. They suffer because they will never live with Heavenly Father.
  18. What do you mean by immediately received? And to where?
  19. "The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation". True to the Faith says "Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory (see D&C 76:81–85)" Based on that definition, the telestials are not redeemed by repentance or accepting the gospel but rather by suffering. This suffering is also mentioned in Kingdoms of Glory and Perdition. In verse 58, what ordinances of the house of God must they be obedient to after they have repented?
  20. Here are a few teachings to support my earlier premise - that they had to disobey one commandment in order to obey another. Old Testament Instructor’s Guide, Religion 301–2 Eve was deceived and beguiled by Satan into partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (see Moses 4:5–6, 19; 1 Timothy 2:14). As a result, Adam was required to make a choice. He chose to obey the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth, which choice was in harmony with the will of God. Nevertheless, because of his choice and his partaking of the fruit, Adam, with Eve, was removed from the Garden of Eden. The following statement by President Joseph Fielding Smith clarifies the account of this event: “What did Adam do? The very thing the Lord wanted him to do, and I hate to hear anybody call it a sin, for it wasn’t a sin. Did Adam sin when he partook of the forbidden fruit? I say to you, no, he did not! Now, let me refer to what was written in the book of Moses in regard to the command God gave to Adam. [Moses 3:16–17 quoted.] Discuss why Adam’s transgression was “the very thing the Lord wanted him to do.” In giving Adam the two commandments, the Lord placed him in a position to choose between a higher law and a lesser law. In either case, Adam was responsible for the consequences of his choice. He could not blame the Lord. The Fall of Adam and the Gift of Agency [Adam and Eve] transgressed a commandment of God which required that they leave their garden setting but which allowed them to have children before facing physical death. To add further sorrow and complexity to their circumstance, their transgression had spiritual consequences as well, cutting them off from the presence of God forever. Because we were then born into that fallen world and because we too would transgress the laws of God, we also were sentenced to the same penalties that Adam and Eve faced. This same curse of Adam was inherited by his descendants. Teachings of President Joseph Fielding Smith But Adam, in breaking the law, himself became subject to the curse, and being under the curse could not atone, or undo what he had done. Neither could his children, for they also were under the curse, and it required one who was not subject to the curse to atone for that original sin. Moreover, since we were all under the curse, we were also powerless to atone for our individual sins.
  21. I wonder then if the child is incentivized to keep disobeying (choosing to touch the hot stove) knowing that the healing balm is coming afterwards.
  22. What do you mean by "it was done out of order"?
  23. Your comparison to the Eden epoch is invalid. God told them not to eat from the forbidden tree and did not attend to them 100% of the time. So I would not say He was an irresponsible parent. Your introduction of a child predator into the epoch is invalid too. Adam and Eve had nothing to fear from the serpent. Neither was God to be viewed as an irresponsible parent for allowing the serpent to speak to them. As for your last question. God is not responsible for the Fall anymore than your parents are responsible for your sin.
  24. Do you have an example of how many is "many"?
  25. Could spirit children of heavenly parents (as taught in this church) be created in the image of 3-dimensional beings or be okay as 2-dimensional offspring that later became 3-dimensional on earth? When I read the following from Gospel Principles, I would say 3 dimensions. All spirits are in adult form. They were adults before their mortal existence, and they are in adult form after death, even if they die as infants or children.