romans8

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Posts posted by romans8

  1. On 5/7/2023 at 9:13 AM, laronius said:

    These individuals are going to experience a complicated mix of misery and a degree of happiness. The happiness will come as a result of being released from hell and receiving a degree of glory.

    How do you understand these teachings from Joseph Smith?  Maybe the misery will overpower
    the happiness.

    “God has decreed that all who will not obey His voice shall not escape the damnation of hell.
    What is the damnation of hell? To go with that society who have not obeyed His commands. . . .
    I know that all men will be damned if they do not come in the way which He hath opened, and
    this is the way marked out by the word of the Lord.”

    “The great misery of departed spirits in the world of spirits, where they go after death, is to
    know that they come short of the glory that others enjoy and that they might have enjoyed
    themselves, and they are their own accusers.”

    “There is no pain so awful as that of suspense. This is the punishment of the wicked; their
    doubt, anxiety and suspense cause weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.”  

    “A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into
    the lake that burns with fire and brimstone [see Revelation 21:8]. The torment of disappointment
    in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. I say, so is the
    torment of man. . . .

    “. . . Some shall rise to the everlasting burnings of God, for God dwells in everlasting burnings,
    and some shall rise to the damnation of their own filthiness, which is as exquisite a torment as
    the lake of fire and brimstone.”

  2. On 5/8/2023 at 12:38 AM, Traveler said:

    I find it most difficult to worship a G-d that would allow someone that does not understand the difference between good and evil to be so deceived and be held responsible for what they obviously did not understand.  I believe that there is an answer – but I have not fount a suitable explanation outside of the modern revelations provided in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

    If Adam and Eve were not held responsible for what they did, then why does the church teach
    Adam and Eve and their descendants were under the curse?

    When I read Alma 42:1-2, Adam and Eve are used as an example to reveal the justice of God and
    the punishment of the sinner.
     

    On 5/8/2023 at 12:38 AM, Traveler said:

    I have no disposition to worship a unjust G-d, especially a G-d the punishes anyone for the sins of anyone else.

    2 Nephi 26:3 says "And after the Messiah shall come there shall be signs given unto 
    my people of his birth, and also of his death and resurrection; and great and 
    terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish; and they perish 
    because they cast out the prophets, and the saints, and stone them, and slay them; 
    wherefore the cry of the blood of the saints shall ascend up to God from the ground 
    against them
    "

    Why does it say the wicked would perish when 3 Nephi 8:25 says the women and children 
    of Moronihah were destroyed but the men, who killed and stoned the prophets, were 
    spared"?

  3. On 5/4/2023 at 12:43 PM, Carborendum said:

    Then I had to wonder about Moses 1:39.  Why does the Lord want that?  So we're happy?  To what end?

    From the previous edition of Gospel Principles:

    All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like
    him—a god. He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the
    immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

  4. On 5/3/2023 at 3:30 PM, Jersey Boy said:

    Doctrine and Covenants 138 and you’ll get the information you need to be set straight as to whether or not the inheritors of the lower kingdoms of heavenly glory will have a covenantal relationship with Christ.

    D&C 138:20-21 mentions this.

    "But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled
    themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised; Neither did the rebellious who rejected the
    testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face
    ".

    After reading Mosiah 2:38-39, Alma 40:11-14,26, and Alma 41:2-4,10, it is hard to see those in
    darkness (from D&C 138) coming forth to inherit happiness instead of misery.

  5. On 4/29/2023 at 6:24 PM, Traveler said:

    But the serpent said that they would not die (suffer any consequences).  How were they to know that the serpent was lying?  How could they know which was correct?

    It was not a matter of who (God or Satan) was lying. God had already told them not to eat from the forbidden
    tree. Based on everything God had given them already, there was no reason for them to suspect God was
    lying.
     

    On 4/29/2023 at 6:24 PM, Traveler said:

    You assume that Cain and Able (or for than manner anyone else) could not have been created in the same manner as Adam and Eve were initially and therefore not in the same spiritually separated (fallen) state from G-d that Adam and Eve ended up.  I would like you to tell me who you think is responsible for Cain and Able being forced (without choice?) to be children of parents that screwed up.  Who gave Cain and Able power to live?  Could they have been born to Adam and Eve without G-d making it so.  Could Adam and Eve have had children without G-d making it so?  By what power did Cain and Able come to live in a fallen state?

    Cain and Abel could have also been created by God like Adam was created initially (in a state of being
    in God's presence) but scripture reveals they were not. They were born to Adam and Eve (who were
    already in a fallen state) and so they inherited that state.  

    I believe Adam and Eve , like the animals, already had the power to procreate before the Fall. I do not
    believe they gained this power by transgressing the command.

    God gave Cain and Abel the ability to live, as He does with all humans and all life forms.

    church president taught this curse fell on all their descendants.

    But Adam, in breaking the law, himself became subject to the curse, and being under the curse 
    could not atone, or undo what he had done. Neither could his children, for they also were under 
    the curse, and it required one who was not subject to the curse to atone for that original sin. 
    Moreover, since we were all under the curse, we were also powerless to atone for our individual 
    sins.

    This church manual teaches the curse came upon everything else. The effects of the Fall were
    universal.

    Then came the curse upon the fruit, upon the vegetables, and upon our mother earth;  and it came
    upon the creeping things, upon the grain in the field, the fish in the sea and upon all things pertaining
    to this earth” (“Instructions,” Deseret News, July 6, 1864, 318).

  6. 21 hours ago, Michael Hickman said:

    Hello, thanks for having me on your forum. In the scriptures, the Savior says, "Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." I know we are taught that every person born into this world is a "Child of God." So what does the Savior mean by his statement that peacemakers will be called "children of God?" Are we all not already children of God? Thanks so much for any help

    Welcome to the forum.

    In addition to what others have mentioned, I believe the phrase child of God also describes a specific
    group of people in the spiritual sense, for Jesus referred to some as children of the devil.

    This is from Romans 8:14-17. I will bold the key parts.

    For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the
    spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba,
    Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children,
    then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ
    ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be
    also glorified together.

  7. On 4/23/2023 at 9:49 AM, laronius said:

    I guess you could argue that baptism is the covenant of the Terrestrial Kingdom. That might make for an interesting discussion.

    How can baptism be a covenant for them when they rejected the gospel?

  8. On 4/22/2023 at 11:49 AM, Traveler said:

    Are you kidding??? – you are telling me that your mother, being fully aware of a child molester, deliberately left you at a place she knew the child molester was present and stocking children – and she did not make any attempt to warn or protect you as a child.  It is my honest opinion that not only is she complicit – she belongs in jail, far away from caring for any innocent and venerable children.

    Children are in danger every day despite any attempts to warn or protect them.  Children could be killed,
    kidnapped, or harmed in other ways.  My parents knew this before they ever conceived me.  I suppose
    your logic would also make other parents (including you if you had children) of being complicit parents
    because they foreknew all these things and still decided to have children.

    As for Adam and Eve, they had nothing to fear from the serpent as long as they remained obedient to
    God.  He had already warned them of the consequences of eating from the forbidden tree.
     

    On 4/22/2023 at 11:49 AM, Traveler said:

    I assume then, that you do not believe that G-d is a just being.  I honestly wonder why you, or anyone else, would worship an unjust G-d.

    Cain and Abel were born in a spiritually separated state from God because of what their parents did.
    God is not to blame for that.

  9. On 4/6/2023 at 9:06 PM, pam said:

    All of God's actions are for our benefit.  On the surface, the curse on the land would seem to have no redeeming value.

    From what I have seen, the curse is much more universal.

    https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-pearl-of-great-price-student-manual-2018/the-book-of-moses/moses-4-20-32?lang=eng
    Then came the curse upon the fruit, upon the vegetables, and upon our mother earth;  and it came
    upon the creeping things, upon the grain in the field, the fish in the sea and upon all things pertaining
    to this earth” (“Instructions,” Deseret News, July 6, 1864, 318).


    https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-joseph-fielding-smith/chapter-3-the-plan-of-salvation?lang=eng
    But Adam, in breaking the law, himself became subject to the curse, and being under the curse 
    could not atone, or undo what he had done. Neither could his children, for they also were under 
    the curse, and it required one who was not subject to the curse to atone for that original sin. 
    Moreover, since we were all under the curse, we were also powerless to atone for our individual 
    sins.

  10. On 4/7/2023 at 11:14 AM, Traveler said:

    It is interesting to me that there are no indications that another planet exist similar to earth that is likewise full of an abundance of life (as we know it). 

    The church does teach this as truth however.

    https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1982/06/christ-and-the-creation.p2?lang=eng#p2

    Christ is the Creator and Redeemer of worlds so numerous that they cannot be numbered by man. 
    As to his infinite and eternal creative and redemptive enterprises the divine word attests: 
    “And worlds without number have I created,” saith the Father, “and I also created them for mine 
    own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. … But only an account 
    of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you.” As to all of the other worlds of 
    the Lord’s creating we know only that it is his work and his glory “to bring to pass”—through the 
    Redeemer—“the immortality and eternal life” of all their inhabitants. (Moses 1:33, 35, 39.)

    In what is probably the most glorious vision given to mortals in this dispensation, Joseph Smith 
    and Sidney Rigdon saw “the Son, on the right hand of the Father,” and “heard the voice bearing 
    record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—That by him, and through him, and of him, the 
    worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto 
    God.” (D&C 76:20, 23–24.) Christ is thus the Creator and the Redeemer. By him the worlds were 
    made, and through his infinite atonement the inhabitants of those worlds are adopted into the 
    divine family as heirs with himself.

  11. On 4/9/2023 at 9:24 AM, laronius said:

    The ordinances of the temple are performed on their behalf here in this world and they have the opportunity to accept those covenants in the spirit world.

    What about those who reject the gospel like the Plan of Salvation says of the terrestrial inhabitants?

  12. On 4/9/2023 at 1:47 AM, laronius said:

    Next, the term salvation (or being saved) can be used as a synonym for exaltation (a fullness of salvation) or it can be used to describe a lesser degree of exaltation, as in the following:

    D&C 132:17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

    Does "a lesser degree of exaltation" = "without exaltation"?

  13. On 4/8/2023 at 8:46 PM, Traveler said:

    If you left your child (without any understanding of right and wrong or good and evil) in a playground to be beguiled by a child molester – and you knew in advance what the child molester would say and do and you did nothing to prevent or prepare your child for the molester – I do not care what else you told your little child – I believe you are complicit – obviously you did not prepare your child sufficiently.

    Based on your comments, my mom is complicit - she did not prepare me sufficiently.
     

    On 4/8/2023 at 8:46 PM, Traveler said:

    And I do not understand your last statement – Why are you punished (as well as everyone else) for the transgressions of Adam and Eve?

    Indirectly punished because we are born in a fallen state due to their disobedience.
     

    On 4/8/2023 at 8:46 PM, Traveler said:

    My point is that the Eden epoch is not to be understood or interpreted literally. 

    What are the trees of Moses 4:7-9?

  14. 1 hour ago, zil2 said:

    Seriously?  You never burned yourself as a child?

    My mom told me to never to touch a hot stove and I never disobeyed. As I grew old, I did disobey
    some of her other commands but I never was blessed by her for my disobedience to her.

  15. On 3/28/2023 at 1:37 PM, laronius said:

    I especially like that phrase "abide without salvation" as it pertains to the idea of "suffering."

    Those in paradise are saved in the kingdom of God (D&C 138:51-52) but I don't know what labors they
    continue to perform after they are resurrected.

    "These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, 
    to enter into his Father’s kingdom, there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life, And continue
    thenceforth their labor as had been promised by the Lord, and be partakers of all blessings which
    were held in reserve for them that love him
    ".

    Lesson 8 says

    "According to Lehi, what makes salvation possible in God's plan? (Students should identify the
    following: We can be saved only through the merits, mercy, and grace of Jesus Christ. You might
    share the following definition of what it means to be saved or to receive salvation: "Salvation in its
    true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an
    inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom. With few exceptions
    this is the salvation of which the scriptures speak
    "

    In that sense, all the others abide without salvation.  They suffer because they will never live with
    Heavenly Father.

  16. On 3/26/2023 at 7:51 PM, laronius said:

    59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

    This verse concerns those who are in spirit prison and have the gospel preached to them.

    "The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
    And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a
    reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation".

    True to the Faith says "Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in
    spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be
    resurrected to a telestial glory (see D&C 76:81–85)
    "

    Based on that definition, the telestials are not redeemed by repentance or accepting the gospel but rather
    by suffering.  This suffering is also mentioned in Kingdoms of Glory and Perdition.
     

    In verse 58, what ordinances of the house of God must they be obedient to after they have repented?

  17. On 3/25/2023 at 10:16 AM, Carborendum said:

    Try again.

    Here are a few teachings to support my earlier premise - that they had to disobey one
    commandment in order to obey another.

    Old Testament Instructor’s Guide, Religion 301–2

    Eve was deceived and beguiled by Satan into partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge 
    of good and evil (see Moses 4:5–6, 19; 1 Timothy 2:14). As a result, Adam was required to make 
    a choice. He chose to obey the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth, which choice 
    was in harmony with the will of God. Nevertheless, because of his choice and his partaking of 
    the fruit, Adam, with Eve, was removed from the Garden of Eden. The following statement by 
    President Joseph Fielding Smith clarifies the account of this event:

    “What did Adam do? The very thing the Lord wanted him to do, and I hate to hear anybody call 
    it a sin, for it wasn’t a sin. Did Adam sin when he partook of the forbidden fruit? I say to 
    you, no, he did not! Now, let me refer to what was written in the book of Moses in regard to 
    the command God gave to Adam. [Moses 3:16–17 quoted.]

    Discuss why Adam’s transgression was “the very thing the Lord wanted him to do.” In giving 
    Adam the two commandments, the Lord placed him in a position to choose between a higher law 
    and a lesser law. In either case, Adam was responsible for the consequences of his choice. 
    He could not blame the Lord.

     

    The Fall of Adam and the Gift of Agency

    [Adam and Eve] transgressed a commandment of God which required that they leave their 
    garden setting but which allowed them to have children before facing physical death. To 
    add further sorrow and complexity to their circumstance, their transgression had spiritual 
    consequences as well, cutting them off from the presence of God forever. Because we were 
    then born into that fallen world and because we too would transgress the laws of God, we 
    also were sentenced to the same penalties that Adam and Eve faced.


    This same curse of Adam was inherited by his descendants.

    Teachings of President Joseph Fielding Smith

    But Adam, in breaking the law, himself became subject to the curse, and being under the curse 
    could not atone, or undo what he had done. Neither could his children, for they also were under 
    the curse, and it required one who was not subject to the curse to atone for that original sin. 
    Moreover, since we were all under the curse, we were also powerless to atone for our individual 
    sins.

  18. On 4/1/2023 at 11:05 AM, zil2 said:

    If she was born more than 30 years ago, she probably said, "I told you not to do that. But come to me and I'll break this aloe plant and apply its healing balm."

    I wonder then if the child is incentivized to keep disobeying (choosing to touch the hot stove) knowing
    that the healing balm is coming afterwards.

  19. On 4/1/2023 at 3:55 PM, Vort said:

    Whatever was involved in Adam and Eve's fall, it was a necessary step. We may assume based on scriptural accounts that it was done out of order and therefore unapproved of God.

    What do you mean by "it was done out of order"?

  20. On 4/3/2023 at 7:20 PM, Traveler said:

    That is one way to interpret the Eden epoch.   This may be difficult because the information may be incomplete – but here is a thought.  What do you think of a parent that not only leaves their child unattended to experiment with a hot stove but knowing that they are in grave danger beyond just the hot stove but for their very life - knowing that a child predator will take any advantage possible of the child, abuse the child and bring about the child’s death.  Then, after this is done, the parent takes no responsibility for un-attending the child in their need and allowing the death of the child and then blames the child for not listening when the child was told not to touch the stove – even though the parent knew full well the plan of the predator and not only did nothing to stop the predator but did nothing to protect the child (that obviously was not experienced enough and did not know better nor understand the dire consequences).    Would you trust such a parent to look after your child? Or trust such to protect anyone in danger or anyone in need of assistance?  Do you really believe such a parent has no responsibility what-so-ever concerning the outcome?

    Your comparison to the Eden epoch is invalid.  God told them not to eat from the forbidden tree and did not
    attend to them 100% of the time.  So I would not say He was an irresponsible parent.  Your introduction of a
    child predator into the epoch is invalid too. Adam and Eve had nothing to fear from the serpent.  Neither was
    God to be viewed as an irresponsible parent for allowing the serpent to speak to them.

    As for your last question. God is not responsible for the Fall anymore than your parents are responsible for your
    sin.

  21. 21 hours ago, Traveler said:

    Perhaps if I give the example of the intersection of two-dimensional space with 3-dimensional space.   The two dimensional space could be represented by a sheet of paper with objects in 2 dimensions appearing on the sheet of paper.  As an observer in 3 dimensional space it would be easy to observe all that takes place in the two dimensional space but for someone in two dimensions would observe very little of the 3 dimensional space – just on occasions when  a part of an object from 3 dimensions touches the paper.  But the observer in 2-dimensional space would only see limited occasions of touches in their dimensions. 

    As I have pondered these notions I have pondered if dark matter and dark energy are indications in our 3 dimensional universe of other dimensions intersecting our space time universe.

    Could spirit children of heavenly parents (as taught in this church) be created in the image of 3-dimensional
    beings or be okay as 2-dimensional offspring that later became 3-dimensional on earth?

    When I read the following from Gospel Principles, I would say 3 dimensions.

    All spirits are in adult form. They were adults before their mortal existence, and they are in adult form after
    death, even if they die as infants or children
    .