romans8

By Israel, I see you mean the nation and not the individual. Initially the birthright went to Reuben as the first born; which he subsequently lost and it went to both the sons of Joseph, Manasseh and Ephraim (1 Chronicles 5:1). Jacob then gave a blessing where Ephraim would be greater than Manasseh (Genesis 48:19). I read that Ephraim is regarded as the firstborn (Jeremiah 31:9) but I also see that he apparently lost this status by his apostasy, which eventually led to the captivity of the northern kingdom by the Assyrians (Isaiah 7:8; Hosea 4:17; 5:3-4; 6:10; 7:1-16; 8:11-13, 9:3, 9:11-17, 10:6, 12:1-2,14, 13:1-3,12-15, 14:8) Psalm 78:67-68 gives a good picture of this. "Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim: But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved". Eventually Judah and Ephraim will come to some semblance of peace. "The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim" (Isaiah 11:13) That is how I interpret the scripture. Regarding your earlier point - how do you believe Ephraim's role in the priesthood/covenant birthright was shown to be exercised in Bible and Book of Mormon times? Merry Christmas to you and your family.

I posted something similar to Just_A_Guy In D&C 76, only gods are members of the "Church of the Firstborn".

From my understanding of the Old Testament, the Levites are taken by God instead of the firstborn (Numbers 3:12,41,45; 6:23-27; 8:16-19) to officiate for the spiritual welfare of the nation as a whole. But Levi's first child and Levi's first grandchild would be holders of the birthright even though they may have each had multiple children. Extending this to other tribes, even Judah's and Asher's first child and grandchild, and all the subsequent first born children in the lineage would hold the birthright. Technically there is no such thing as a "birthright tribe" since all the first born of any tribe in all subsequent centuries would be birthright holders. Thousands of years later, I too am the first born son of my parents, holding the birthright. I have two other brothers. But this birthright does not give me any right to a priesthood anymore than my two other brothers would be denied being a priest because they are second and third born to my parents. From what I read in the D&C 76, only gods are members of the "Church of the Firstborn".

No extra question other than the different groups which I identified.

1 Nephi 10:12-13 - "Yea, even my father spake much concerning the Gentiles, and also concerning the house of Israel, that they should be compared like unto an olive tree, whose branches should be broken off and should be scattered upon all the face of the earth. Wherefore, he said it must needs be that we should be led with one accord into the land of promise, unto the fulfilling of the word of the Lord, that we should be scattered upon all the face of the earth". Are all the lands that the Israelites were scattered to now considered their lands of promise or will the land of Israel ultimately be the land of promise and inheritance for all the 12 tribes?

I saw the feedback but didn't understand how some viewed it as non-linear time events.

What are the covenant blessings and responsibilities of those who exercise the right of the firstborn in the other 11 tribes? I understand your point about the temporal care of a family, but I only see that the Levites were tasked with the spiritual welfare of the family or nation of Israel. In all the blessings bestowed upon Joseph by Jacob before he died or mentioned by Moses in Deuteronomy 33 (Levi - verses 8-11; Joseph - verses 13-17), the right of the firstborn did not deal with priestly ordinances or the spiritual welfare of the family.

@Poseidon I found this aspect of "majority" mentioned in "Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual" Page 66 - "It is essential in this dispensation that Ephraim stand in his place at the head, exercising the birthright in Israel which was given to him by direct revelation. Therefore, Ephraim must be gathered first to prepare the way, through the gospel and the priesthood, for the rest of the tribes of Israel when the time comes for them to be gathered to Zion. The great majority of those who have come into the Church are Ephraimites. It is the exception to find one of any other tribe, unless it is of Manasseh". "It is Ephraim, today, who holds the priesthood. It is with Ephraim that the Lord has made covenant and has revealed the fulness of the everlasting gospel. It is Ephraim who is building temples and performing the ordinances in them for both the living and for the dead". What does "exercising the birthright" mean? Why are no other tribes mentioned as members of the LDS Church who are building temples or with whom the Lord has made covenant? Searching online, I see that D&C 68:15-21 ; 86:8; 107:16,40,69-70,76 ; and 113:8 puts emphasis on the right of priesthood for a true literal descendant. Does that mean most or all Latter-day Saints who hold the Aaronic priesthood are true literal descendants?

Am I understanding 1 Nephi 8 correctly? Lehi sees a tree and partakes of its fruit (verses 10,11). After partaking, his soul was filled with joy and he began to desire for his family to also partake (verse 12). His wife Sariah and his two sons come and partake of the fruit also (verse 16). His other sons Laman and Lemuel would not (verses 18 and 35). Verses 21-22 mention a group of many people who press forward on the path that leads to the tree. Verse 23 says a mist of darkness arose which caused all the people of verses 21-22 to be lost. I can identify several groups of people after Lehi and family partook of the tree. The first set of people come to the path, do not hold unto the rod of iron, enter the mist of darkness, and are lost (verses 21-23). The second set of people hold unto the rod of iron, go through the mist of darkness, partake of the fruit, experience shame due to the scoffing of those in the spacious building, and are lost (verses 24-25, 28). A third set of people held unto the rod of iron, but did not go through the mist of darkness, and reach the tree (verse 30). It appears that none in this third set heed the scoffing so they are not lost. There is no mention of the existence of this mist of darkness until after Lehi, Sariah, Nephi, and Sam partake of the tree back in verse 16. What is the mist of darkness and when does it arise in historical terms? Verses 33-34 says that those in the spacious building "did point the finger of scorn at me and those that were partaking of the fruit also; but we heeded them not. These are the words of my father: For as many as heeded them, had fallen away". Why does this latter part (33-34) seem to allude that all who partook of the fruit did not heed the scorners and were saved whereas verse 28 says the first set of people (who came after Lehi and family) ate of the fruit, heeded the scorning, and became lost? Is there a difference between the scoffing (verse 28) and the scorning (verse 33)? The *strait and narrow path, which led to the tree (verse 20,22), is footnoted to other scriptural passages (Matthew 7:14; 3 Nephi 31:18; which is a reference to eternal life). Since eternal life is exaltation, this would mean that everyone else would be considered as lost because, even though they had eaten the fruit, they still failed to keep on the strait and narrow path. This is in addition to the lost people of verses 21-23. Is that an accurate depiction? Matteo

Maybe he did not believe Genesis 9:8-17. Flood and water are mentioned several times.

I would say enduring to the end; meaning eternal life.

When I read the definition section of The Plan of Salvation and Alma 12:31, they indicate the Fall/Spiritual Death was caused by multiple events The Fall The event [singular] by which mankind became mortal. It resulted in a spiritual and physical separation from God. Because Adam and Eve, the first humans, disobeyed God's commandments [plural], they were separated from His presence (this separation is also called spiritual death) and became mortal (subject to physical death). Spiritual Death Separation from God as a result of disobeying His commandments [plural]. Alma 12:31 Wherefore, he gave commandments unto men, they having first transgressed the first commandments [plural] as to things which were temporal, and becoming as gods, knowing good from evil, placing themselves in a state to act, or being placed in a state to act according to their wills and pleasures, whether to do evil or to do good. I would agree with what was stated on page 6 - the Fall was caused by the decision [a singular event] to eat from the forbidden tree. Satan tempted Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit, and they chose to do so. This was part of God's plan. Because of their decision, they were separated from God's presence physically and spiritually. They became mortal, that is, subject to sin and death. They were unable to return to Him without His help. Their physical and spiritual separation from God is called the Fall.

From my knowledge of Catholic teachings, they believe parishioners need human priests in their interaction with God, even using Mary as their mediatrix. I believe Christ is our only high priest in heaven or on earth with whom we have to deal with, our only Mediator, and that all believers (both men and women) constitute the royal priesthood of believers (1 Peter 2:5,9).

I never thought of it that way. I do have adulterous thoughts in my mind from time to time. Maybe they will come to fruition some day and lead to a holy outcome. But for sure my wife would divorce me if I did this.

I found an aspect of "blood" mentioned in the following teachings that would indicate Adam and Eve gained the ability to procreate with the fall. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1993/10/constancy-amid-change?lang=eng "While I do not fully understand all the biochemistry involved, I do know that their physical bodies did change; blood began to circulate in their bodies. Adam and Eve thereby became mortal. Happily for us, they could also beget children and fulfill the purposes for which the world was created". https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/8-the-fall?lang=eng "When Adam was in the Garden of Eden, he was not subject to death. There was no blood in his body and he could have remained there forever. This is true of all the other creations” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:76–77)." I wonder if their disobedience also opened the door for the plants and animals to gain the ability to procreate.

My answer would be no. But I would not commit an adulterous act with a woman so that we can eventually celebrate the birthday of a child or children that will be born. What you refer to as "incidental positive benefits" (mortality, child birth) are called "great blessings" (Gospel Principles, chapter 6). I believe Adam and Eve, with the animals, already had the ability to procreate before the Fall. What are your beliefs about the animals? Did they also gain the ability to procreate when Adam and Eve disobeyed God or did they already have this ability when God commanded them? I do not understand why you consider it a wrongful decision for Adam and Eve to disobey God for it was something they had to do. If they made the right decision and abstained from eating of the forbidden tree, Cain would not be able to be born (what from I understand of your church teachings). Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said: "I never speak of the part Eve took in this fall as a sin, nor do I accuse Adam of a sin. ... This was a transgression of the law, but not a sin ... for it was something that Adam and Eve had to do!" The part of this act not being a sin also confuses me since many other church teachings indicate that it was sin. When I look at Moses 5:10-11, it appears that only Eve understood that transgression led them to have children. As for the eyes of Adam being opened, it was the eyes of both of them being opened only after Adam ate from the forbidden tree. Eve's eyes (of understanding) were not opened when she first ate (Genesis 3:7). Initially they felt fear and shame in their sin. LDS scripture has them becoming glad and blessing God for their act of disobedience. Going back to the birthday and adultery example. My wife and I would not say "Thank you God and blessed be your name for because of our adultery we could now have this child and today we celebrate his birthday". I understand we disagree on some theological points but I hope you do not take offence at my comments or questions. Hopefully we can continue discussion on this and/or other matters without me be accused by others as being "anti'". I do not think of the members of this forum as as "anti-evangelical" or "anti-reformed", etc. Sometimes contention surely does arise when even those among Christian sects discuss spiritual things.

I see what you are saying. I did not mean to sound like I was doubling down. My earlier statement was based on what I read in the church's manual (Religion 327). “It was Eve who first transgressed the limits of Eden in order to initiate the conditions of mortality. Her act, whatever its nature, was formally a transgression but eternally a glorious necessity to open the doorway toward eternal life. Adam showed his wisdom by doing the same. And thus Eve and ‘Adam fell that men might be’ [2 Nephi 2:25]. “Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed by it. Not the Latter-day Saints! Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve’s act and honor her wisdom and courage in the great episode, called the Fall". I suppose, by extension, Adam's act should also be celebrated and his wisdom honored too.

What types of joy do you believe they experienced in the Garden before the fall?

What are your thoughts on these teachings. I may have referenced them before. Maybe being happy means not having joy? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/friend/1973/02/our-first-parents?lang=eng Adam and Eve were happy in their beautiful home in the Garden of Eden, for they had been given everything they could want for food and for pleasure. They knew nothing of evil, for their world was all good. Often in the cool of early evening the Lord would walk and talk with them, and their happiness was complete. He told them that everything had been made for them to enjoy except one tree—the tree of knowledge of good and evil—and that they should neither touch nor eat the fruit of that tree, for if they did, they would be punished. Adam promised that they would not disobey this commandment.

Did this positive effect also extend to the plants and animals or did they already have the ability to procreate before the Fall? As you are aware, other churches do not believe Adam and Eve should be celebrated for their act of disobedience in the Garden of Eden.

“The mediator turned then to the debtor. ‘If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?’ “ ‘Oh yes, yes,’ cried the debtor. ‘You save me from prison and show mercy to me.’ Our sins are our spiritual debts. Without Jesus Christ, who is our Savior and Mediator, we would all pay for our sins by suffering spiritual death. But because of Him, if we will keep His terms, which are to repent and keep His commandments, we may return to live with our Heavenly Father. Initially the debtor accepted the creditor (Jesus). But if they did not keep His terms, they would not return to live with Heavenly Father. I believe this separation is referred to as spiritual death (also the second death - Jacob 3:11; Alma 12:16; Alma 13:30; Helaman 14:18-19; Revelation 2:11; 20:6, 20:14). The prison in this sense may refer to a time after mortal death (a separation of spirit from body) or a life in mortality where a person is living without accepting Christ as Savior. Jesus paying the debt seems to be the resurrection of the person to stand before God for judgment or being free from God's wrath by accepting the atonement while living. I view the parable as having two destinations - salvation or damnation. To supplement that view, I add the following: Helaman 12:23,25-26 Therefore, blessed are they who will repent and hearken unto the voice of the Lord their God; for these are they that shall be saved. And I would that all men might be saved. But we read that in the great and last day there are some who shall be cast out, yea, who shall be cast off from the presence of the Lord; Yea, who shall be consigned to a state of endless misery, fulfilling the words which say: They that have done good shall have everlasting life; and they that have done evil shall have everlasting damnation. And thus it is. Amen. 3 Nephi 11:33-34 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God. And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned. John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish.

A large part of America is into conspiracy theories .

Thank you. I always thought of the Fall as bringing both mortality and a spiritual separation from God. Adam and Eve brought these upon themselves, whereas Cain and Abel and all subsequent children inherited these two consequences.

What does rejecting Christ as mediator in that parable mean to you?

Question 1: I believe that Adam and Eve experienced joy before the Fall. They lived in a perfect paradise and had fellowship with God and each other, and experience all the beauty around them. Unless they were robots and had no emotions ... which I don't believe. I believe God wanted them to only experience good and not evil. If we parents today, we could use the example of our children. If I were a father, I would not want my children to know about evil or to experience it. I searched and found this church teaching. Adam and Eve were happy in their beautiful home in the Garden of Eden, for they had been given everything they could want for food and for pleasure. They knew nothing of evil, for their world was all good. Often in the cool of early evening the Lord would walk and talk with them, and their happiness was complete. Question 2: my answer to question 1 was no. But I can address it too. I do not consider it a moral duty or a duty for all human beings to experience mortal life as you stated. They experience happiness in their life but also experience misery due to consequences which began with the Fall. I do not refer to the Fall as the curse of Adam as Moroni 8:8