romans8

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  1. Like
    romans8 got a reaction from Anddenex in long absence   
    I was away for a while dealing with family matters in lieu of what is going on in Ukraine.  Things have settled down a bit but we are still doing hospitality work with the hurting.
  2. Sad
    romans8 got a reaction from Still_Small_Voice in long absence   
    All the dispersed Ukrainians we met had a profound sadness in their eyes. They left homeland
    and husbands/fathers. While we provide food, shelter, and comfort to them, they still yearn to
    return to the only home they ever had and to hopefully be reunited with their loved ones. As
    Ukraine survived and recovered after the second World War, let's hope the recovery happens
    again.  It will take time, prayer, and God's provision.
    I especially note the strength and resiliency of their children with all they have gone through.  It
    is almost like they are battle hardened with everything that has happened throughout their history.
  3. Like
    romans8 got a reaction from askandanswer in long absence   
    I was away for a while dealing with family matters in lieu of what is going on in Ukraine.  Things have settled down a bit but we are still doing hospitality work with the hurting.
  4. Like
    romans8 got a reaction from NeuroTypical in long absence   
    All the dispersed Ukrainians we met had a profound sadness in their eyes. They left homeland
    and husbands/fathers. While we provide food, shelter, and comfort to them, they still yearn to
    return to the only home they ever had and to hopefully be reunited with their loved ones. As
    Ukraine survived and recovered after the second World War, let's hope the recovery happens
    again.  It will take time, prayer, and God's provision.
    I especially note the strength and resiliency of their children with all they have gone through.  It
    is almost like they are battle hardened with everything that has happened throughout their history.
  5. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to Just_A_Guy in long absence   
    Welcome back!  We disagree a lot, but I sincerely hope you are well.  
  6. Like
    romans8 got a reaction from JohnsonJones in Liahona article on infertility - to multiply and replenish the earth   
    Regarding this March 2021 Liahona article.
    "While waiting to have children, I learned that I could multiply and replenish the earth in other ways".
    "During my ups and downs, I have found myself often reflecting on the commandment given to Adam and Eve. 
    We believe that this commandment remains in full force today and that we are expected to follow it. 
    However, my husband and I haven't yet been able to. But neither could Adam and Eve, at first. So what 
    did they do? The only thing they knew how-they took care of the garden. While I don't live in the Garden 
    of Eden, I do live in the garden of the earth, the garden of the Netherlands, the garden of my family, 
    and the garden of my ward. These are my gardens that the Lord has asked me to multiply and replenish".
    When God gave the commandment to be fruitful and multiply, did he only have procreation in mind or were
    Adam and Eve being fruitful and multiplying by taking care of the plants and trees in the Garden of Eden?  
    Can this commandment be applied to married couples or single people who do not or cannot have children
    or who remain single?
    Matteo
  7. Like
    romans8 got a reaction from JohnsonJones in First covenant?   
    From reading Galatians chapter 4, I would say law (applied to the Israelites) versus grace (applied to first
    the Israelites and then to all peoples).
    "For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But as then
    he that was born after the flesh [Ishmael] persecuted him that was born after the Spirit [Isaac], even so it is
    now ... So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.".
    I am of not from any of the literal tribes of Israel but I would consider myself a child of the free.
  8. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to Just_A_Guy in What does “Eternal Families” mean?   
    Sure, the idea of a divine council whose origins stretch back through the eternities can be mind-boggling in some of its ramifications; and at this point we simply don’t know how they all work out.  As someone who presumably subscribes to the Athanasian Creed, I would think you’d be used to accepting a certain amount of mystery in your concept of divinity.  
    On the other hand, I am inclined to think your “golly gee willikers, this is just soooo hard to understand” is something of an affectation.  Do you find family reunions confusing?  If you go to a multi-generational gathering of parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, aunts and uncles and cousins multiple times removed—does the existence of all those people really create difficulties in your relationship with your own parents?  When a toddler at a family reunion stubs his toe and runs to seek comfort—does the presence of all those additional family members make him somehow forget who his own mother is?  
    You know very well that Traveler was talking about the way individual parties to a marriage leave their parents, not the way they bond to their spouses; and in this context, your resorting to changing the topic with a cheap shot about polygamy just shows that you’ve conceded the argument about the purported confusion caused by multiple generations of gods.  Thank you for acknowledging the soundness of the Latter-day Saint theology in this topic.  Glad we could help you understand it!
    As to polygamy, though:  you are absolutely right.  LDS polygamous families were not seen as “group marriages” between a man and all his wives—in other words, there was no formal theological or social covenant as directly between the various wives.  Rather, an individual man was bound to each wife in a marriage that was separate and independent from his marriage to each of his other wives.  
    And yes, this created some interesting discussions in LDS culture of the late 19th century about what it really meant to “be one” in the marital covenant and how it could be that a man could “be one” with multiple individuals simultaneously.  (Too bad they didn’t have good old Athanasius to tell ‘em how it’s possible to simultaneously be three, and yet one, and yet three, and yet one, but also three, but also one.)
  9. Okay
    romans8 got a reaction from Just_A_Guy in Gays and the church   
    What do you mean by a God who creates humans ex nihilo?
    I find it hard to grapple with the mercy of God and his judgment. Especially when I read the parable
    about final outcome for the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31.
    God does not desire suffering or wickedness, but he has allowed it to happen. It all originated with
    the fall.
  10. Like
    romans8 got a reaction from Traveler in The unclean   
    I do not get any indication that the cherubs on the mercy seat are in direct opposition or in a game to
    defeat the other.
    How does the power and direct involvement of the accuser cherub on the mercy-seat represent mercy?
  11. Okay
    romans8 got a reaction from Anddenex in Gays and the church   
    I believe the sins mentioned in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (sexual immorality, idolatry, adultery,
    homosexuality, etc) all begin with a personal choice.  Then the person who wishes to maintain
    this lifestyle shifts to a belief they were born (or made by God) that way to try to soften any
    guilt, pain, or reason to repent.
    After reading some passages like Deuteronomy 1:35 and Ezekiel 23, I do not see God accepting
    all his children for who they are and however they live their life and then preparing a future place
    of glory for such.
  12. Okay
    romans8 got a reaction from Traveler in The unclean   
    If God is the father of both Christ and Satan through procreation with a heavenly mother, then
    there should be no cause for concern for they would indeed be spirit brothers.
  13. Like
    romans8 reacted to Just_A_Guy in Mathew 11:21   
    For that matter, why didn’t He come to the Nephites rather than the Jews?
    As to Tyre and Sidon specifically:  Christ isn’t saying the people of Tyre and Sidon of the first century AD would have accepted Him.  He’s saying the people of Tyre and Sidon of the 4th-7th centuries BC, who were condemned by Isaiah/Jeremiah/Ezekiel and subsequently destroyed for their wickedness (like the people of Sodom who were destroyed for their wickedness) were less hard-hearted than the people of Judah.  This may have been objectively true; or it may have been hyperbole intended by the Lord to shock His hearers into repentance and warn them that they were living on borrowed time.
  14. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to Just_A_Guy in Article of Faith #2   
    Genesis 3:3, though you’re right that from a semantical standpoint I should substitute “die” (or, per Moses 3:17, “surely die”), for “be expelled from Eden”.  The point being, Adam and Eve knew beforehand from God Himself that there were consequences to their partaking the fruit.  God is not being capricious or unfair here.  If Eve deluded herself into thinking that death was not a direct and certain consequence of her decision, it wasn’t because God hadn’t warned her; it was because she momentarily gave greater credence to the serpent than to God.
    We, being in a state of innocence (and enjoying God’s direct presence), forsook that state and (notwithstanding we did it in hopes of a greater long-term gain in accordance with the Father’s plan of salvation, and knowing ab initio that a Savior would be provided) subjected ourselves to the power of Satan.
  15. Okay
    romans8 got a reaction from wenglund in For Romans8   
    First of all, Merry Christmas to you and your family.
    Thank you for your kind words and invitation.  I am not there yet - as for getting baptized into this church, but I
    am still learning.  More prayer and study are in order though. I meet with the occasional missionaries with face
    to face zoom/google sometimes.
    Matteo
  16. Thanks
    romans8 got a reaction from askandanswer in For Romans8   
    First of all, Merry Christmas to you and your family.
    Thank you for your kind words and invitation.  I am not there yet - as for getting baptized into this church, but I
    am still learning.  More prayer and study are in order though. I meet with the occasional missionaries with face
    to face zoom/google sometimes.
    Matteo
  17. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to Anddenex in The unclean   
    I believe the scripture quoted answers this question already. The unclean equal, in this verse, those who "sought to do wickedly in the days of [their] probation." I would then recognize the more important question is what does it mean to seek after wickedness?
    Cast off would mean anyone who is not able to remain in God's presence in the next life. This then would include those who are in the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms.
  18. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to JohnsonJones in Article of Faith #2   
    It is clear from his writing that he felt that little children should not need to be baptized from the start.  That he felt that was the doctrine already, but he inquired nonethless.
     
    He was sad because they were arguing about this.  He found out that they were arguing about the matter but, asked about it anyways.  The way he condemns anyone who thinks this way (that little children need to be baptized) show his thought process later.  He was very unhappy people even thought about it in that way, and that he ALWAYS felt that there was no need for little children to be baptized, and in fact says of those who think that they do that he feels this way about them...
    These are not the words from someone who didn't not feel strongly about the matter already.  He already felt in his personal beliefs that little children should not need to be baptized and could not imagine that anyone who was Christian could think or feel otherwise.
  19. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to Traveler in Article of Faith #2   
    Why I believe the 2nd Article of Faith to be necessary revelation to clear up corrupted understanding concerning the Atonement of Christ and the divinity of a just G-d:  I came to my understanding through careful study, logic and what I think is divinely inspired personal revelation.  All posting at the forum are encouraged, by me, to read through my understanding and dray whatever conclusions they will.  I also encourage any criticism, correction, addition, questions or any other discussion to my post by anyone – LDS or otherwise.  I will consider all responses and will respond in kindness and as best to my understanding as I find appropriate.
    First point – when we speak of punishment (in the Second Article of Faith) we are referring to punishment enacted by G-d to accomplish his purpose.  My understanding is that there can be no purpose by a Just G-d that is not in and of itself – Just.  If a punishment is meted out that is not just; the source of such punishment cannot be thought of as just.  Thus any punishment by G-d must be just or such a G-d is NOT a just G-d.  I do not believe that anyone other than Adam can be punished for his transgressions (sins) by a Just G-d.
    Because of this “first point” we are left with two seemingly paradoxical contradictions and doctrines.  The first is dealing with how it is possible that all of mankind became fallen from divine grace into a state of sin and unavoidable death because of the fall of Adam?  The second is how is it possible that Jesus Christ being innocent is justly able to redeem (be punished) for all the sins of mankind?  Because of these two contradictions – I cannot logically believe in any other Christian doctrine and teachings other than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I will explain the logic I find uniquely in LDS teaching of the Plan of Salvation.
    Second point – Unique to modern religious doctrine the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints unequivocally teaches that all mankind lived with G-d before there was a creation of our earth or any living thing upon earth.  In this pre-earth existence, G-d held a great counsel with all his spirit children (including all of mankind to live or ever live on this earth).  In this grand counsel G-d presented a plan called the Plan of Salvation that made possible for his spirit children (including all of mankind) to learn by experience and obtain knowledge of good and evil.
    Elements of this divine plan of salvation were taught to the first of G-d’s spirit children to live on earth.  This first of G-d’s spirit children was a man we call Adam.  Adam recorded the revealed elements of this plan in scripture for all generations that would follow him and also taught his children so that this essential information was passed down through generations by scripture and by word of mouth.
    A quick summary (not complete) of this plan included: 1. A creation of our earth where we could experience mortal life.  2. A fall from grace meaning that we would live without knowledge but by faith and eventually die.  3. That a chosen and anointed Son of G-d (Messiah or Christ) would grant us Agency to choose between Light (good) or Darkness (evil) after we have experience the fruit of good and evil.  This Agency also allowed us to accept or reject the plan of salvation long before we would be born as well as being tarnished by sin during mortality.  Our knowledge of evil would be concluded by our suffering death.  Our knowledge of good would be completed by our redemption from sin by the Atonement of Jesus Christ.  This redemption would require that Jesus Christ (Jehovah) grant us our agency and by right of his divine G-dhood and proctor of the covenant given to us through the plan of salvation – thus Jesus the Christ became accountable for allowing our choice to fall and suffer death.  Therefore he was the only possible redemptions for our sins that would require his condescension to suffer even unto death (both physical and spiritual) without himself committing any sin or transgression of the law.
    Then after we have experienced a fall from grace – we also will suffer death and atonement and with this knowledge of good and evil; which came by our experience we will then come before G-d the Father where we will complete our exercise of Agency and present our eternal choice of good and evil before G-d at what is called the Final Judgement.
    I have logically concluded that in this pre-earth existence, that we, under the Agency granted by Christ (the Son of G-d) that we chose (as symbolically presented in scripture as the fall of Adam) to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (meaning the sacrifice by way of atonement as good and suffering death as evil)
    And so it is I believe we chose to become mortal to suffer physical death and live with a vail of forgetfulness which is a spiritual death.  Because we chose to partake of this fruit of knowledge of good and evil we are punished and suffer – even unto death in this life - first of a forgetfulness of our previous estate (which is a spiritual death) and second we die.  Indeed the scriptures speak of both death and a second death.
     
    The Traveler
  20. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to Fifthziff in Article of Faith #2   
    I believe Adams Transgression to be all the things that come as a result of adam's transgression, i.e. - living in an carnal body.  For example, I don't think the apostles will be punished for falling asleep while Christ was in the Garden of Gethsemane.  They tried to stay awake but because of Adam's transgression their body was not able to stay awake. Their spirit was willing but the body not able.  So the things for which the spirit is willing but the body not able, we will not be punished for.  Another example would be if a person blurted out a profanity because they had some physical ailment that caused such a thing, like Tourette's or even Alzheimer's etc. a person would not be punished for "Adam's transgression" - an imperfect body. 
  21. Like
    romans8 got a reaction from JohnsonJones in Article of Faith #2   
    I believe we are all indirectly punished as a result of Adam's transgression (in that we are all 
    fallen by nature, including infants). I don't believe in infant baptism and I don't believe unbaptized
    or deceased infants go to Hell.  In their death, they are heaven bound due to Christ's atonement.
    Matteo
  22. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to laronius in Revelation 7 and the Restoration   
    If you look at the footnote in our version of the Bible for 2a it will reference you to a verse in the D&C talking about the restoration.
    It does not specifically say that the earthquake will happen as soon as the sixth seal is open, just when it is opened. There is speculation on the exact dates of the seals and some believe they can even overlap so that some of the sixth seal signs will happen in conjunction with some of the seventh seal times. But a quick Google search will show past events that some believe qualify for these signs as well.
  23. Okay
    romans8 got a reaction from Just_A_Guy in Mark 4 - The Parable of the Sower   
    I found the definitions on page 14 in this publication.
    https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/ldsorg/content/english/manual/missionary/pdf/36950_the-plan-of-salvation-eng.pdf
  24. Like
    romans8 got a reaction from laronius in Are we sure wickedness isn't happiness?   
    @Fether
    God had originally created Adam and Eve good; without a sinful nature. They were created in
    the image of God. However, with their disobedience, sin entered into their nature. When they
    had children,  Adam's image and likeness was passed along to his offspring (Romans 5:12).
    This verse also depicts the truth that sin leads to death (Romans 6:23 and Ephesians 2:1). 
    Those who are in the realm of the flesh (or sinful nature) cannot please God (Romans 8:7–8).
    The Book of Mormon indicates likewise.
    "This is the thing which I was about to explain. Now we see that Adam did fall by the partaking of
    the forbidden fruit, according to the word of God; and thus we see, that by his fall, all mankind became
    a lost and fallen people" (Alma 12:22).
    "Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death
    as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that
    mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death. Therefore, as they had become carnal,
    sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it
    became a preparatory state" (Alma 42:9-10).
    "And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds,
    tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state,
    to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters" (Mosiah 27:25).
    "... but I say unto you they are blessed; for behold, as in Adam, or by nature, they fall, even so the
    blood of Christ atoneth for their sins" (Mosiah 3:16).
    "For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, 
    forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the 
    natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord" (Mosiah 3:19).
    Matteo
  25. Okay
    romans8 got a reaction from Traveler in The Record of the Jews   
    I found some mention of the brass plates at https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1988/01/the-plates-of-brass-a-witness-of-christ?lang=eng
    The Brass Plates may well have been the official scripture of the Ten Tribes. It is probable that some
    prophets wrote on these plates whose writings may not have been recorded on the records kept in
    Judah. Were Zenos, Zenock, Neum, and Ezias … among them?” (Answers to Book of Mormon Questions,
    Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1967, pp. 43–44.)