romans8

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  1. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to Traveler in The Record of the Jews   
    There have all ready been some very good comments.  I thought to add some thought as an armature student of ancient middle eastern studies.  The discovery of the vast array of Dead Sea Scrolls has drastically changed our view of the world of the Jews at the time of Jesus and before (from the second temple era on).  These precious artifacts has demonstrated that what has been handed down as tradition over the last 2,000 years is extremely inaccurate.  For example documents like the "Testaments of the Patriarchs" and the Book of Enoch that were left out of our modern Bible are historically more accurate than accepted1700 years ago.  The reasons given anciently for rejecting these documents turns out to be completely untrue - leaving modern students to wonder if deliberate deception (lying) was involved in the early evolution of what is now Traditional Christianity .  
    But there are other interesting facts about ancient scripture.  Within the Dead Sea Scrolls there was a very distinct hierarchy of their scripture texts.  Not just which books of scripture but which copy and version of each text.  One of the primary reasons for the Dead Sea settlement was what was known as a scriptorium.  Copies were made of sacred scripture text - most likely to be used at ancient synagogues.  But some copies were obviously more sacred than others.  Select breeds of sheep were used for certain copies of the scrolls.  These were believed to be like standard copies kept at the scriptorium from which other copies were made for distribution.
    There was another purpose for the Settlement that is not often mentioned in modern religious circles.  This purpose was to maintain a pure and clean cadre of priest for officiating in the ordinances at the temple in Jerusalem.  One of the greatest mysteries of the Dead Sea Scriptures is what is known as "The Copper Scroll".  This is a most unique scripture that relates directly to the Temple of Jerusalem.  A number of prominent scholars (Catholic scholars dominate as the experts and currently control the Dead Sea Scriptures) believe that the most accurate scriptures were kept at the temple on mettle scrolls or plates in the Arch of the Covenant in the Holy of Holy of the temple.  It is my personal theory that these very special copies of ancient scripture that were kept at the temple were what Nephi calls "The Record of the Jews".  We know from records at the Dead Sea Settlement that any scriptures kept at the temple were to be watched over and kept at the temple by covenant.  The fact that Laban had this sacred artifact in his residence was a gross breaking of a sacred covenant.  Anciently the punishment for breaking such a sacred covenant with G-d was to be beheaded. 
    We know from the Book of Mormon that the record of the Jews was what became known as the Brass plates of Laban.   The Book of Mormon tells us that this record was very sacred and will be preserved.  This all makes it very unlikely that Joseph Smith conjured up the Book of Mormon as a fantasy and in fact the more we learn about the times in question the more accurate we learn to Book of Mormon must be - even more accurate than the Bible as it is presented to us in our modern era.
     
    The Traveler 
  2. Like
    romans8 reacted to Grunt in Why Do We Reference Heavenly Mother and Not Heavenly Mothers?   
    If I cared what the world thought I wouldn't be in the church at all.
     
  3. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to Just_A_Guy in Discovering the teachings on the plates   
    Neither the manual nor the verses you cite say that the spokesman who Joseph of Egypt prophesied would come through his loins, would also be a descendant of Joseph-ben-Lehi.  They merely state that Joseph-ben-Lehi’s seed would repent through the words of a book of writings created by the aforementioned spokesman (cf vv 18-19), who would “rise up among” the seed of Joseph-ben-Lehi.
    “Rise up among” can as easily refer to “come to the physical proximity to” as “be a literal descendant of”; in fact, if literal descendancy were the intent, Lehi could have explicitly said that the spokesman would come “through the loins” of Joseph-ben-Lehi (as he did when he wanted to convey that the spokesman would be a literal descendant of Joseph of Egypt).  But he didn’t.
  4. Like
    romans8 reacted to Just_A_Guy in Tried even as Abraham?   
    Mais oui.  We are all entitled to our own English interpolations; we just aren’t entitled to our own Greek grammar and we aren’t entitled to write out key portions of the Genesis narrative regarding Isaac’s birth.  
  5. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to Just_A_Guy in Discovering the teachings on the plates   
    1.  As it pertained to the individuals Ephraim and Manasseh, I presume it would have had to do primarily with inheritance.  As it pertained on their progeny—I mentioned above, as time went on the material benefit of being a member of the birthright.
    2.  As authors—not much, as far as I know.  Again, the significance to Lehi isn’t that he is of the tribe of Ephraim; it’s that he is of the seed of Joseph.  But when it comes to the book being translated and published in our time—Joseph Smith was of the tribe of Ephraim.
  6. Like
    romans8 got a reaction from laronius in Children Provide Restitution for Parent's Sins?   
    That makes sense. I also found this article on desiringgod
    1. The sins of the fathers are punished in the children through becoming the sins of the children.
    I the Lord...visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of
    those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my
    commandments.” (Exodus 20:5; cf. Numbers 14:18)
    The generations to come who experience the penalty of the fathers’ sins are those who hate God.
    We are not told how the fathers’ sins become the children’s sins. But what we are told is that when
    the father’s sins are visited on the children it is because the children are really sinful. That is the
    form in which the fathers’ sins are visited. Therefore, all judgment is really deserved by the person
    who is punished.
  7. Thanks
    romans8 got a reaction from dprh in The Purpose of Life: To Learn to Love   
    How is a person obtaining a physical body better able to show or experience love than another person
    who only has a spiritual body?  Or let me rephrase  - did you love God more or less in your pre-mortal
    life than you do now in your physical body?
  8. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to Just_A_Guy in Discovering the teachings on the plates   
    Romans, bud, I love you; but your perseverating on this indicates that you have completely missed the point of my post’s first paragraph.  
    Let me try to rephrase my point.
    Descendancy is not exclusive.  The fact that one is literally descended from a person who lived thousands of years ago through one line, does not mean that one is precluded from also being descended from that ancestor’s sibling through another line.  In the House of Israel, tribal membership was primarily an indicator of subcultural identity, covenant obligations, and specific sets of inherited blessings.  If Lehi had grown up considering himself (say) a Levite, then looking at an actual family tree that confirmed he also had Josephite ancestry would have been meaningful to him in light of Jacob’s deathbed blessing upon Joseph and his posterity.
  9. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to CV75 in Discovering the teachings on the plates   
    At the time, given where the Church was growing, that was probably the case. Literal and adoption are two different things, but both are valid and the Lord has His purposes for organizing His children either way.
    PS according to the Book of Mormon, the Lord has great blessings in store for the Gentiles as well, so don't be perplexed!
     
  10. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to Just_A_Guy in Encouraging Temple recommend renewals?   
    No; those who fail to keep their covenants, fail to avail themselves of the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, and reject His grace are in the end condemned by the Lord.
    Being unworthy to enter the temple is merely an indicator that one is engaging in damnable behavior and/or attitudes; it is not the cause of the damnation.
  11. Like
    romans8 got a reaction from LDSGator in Satan's little ironies   
    I would disagree.  I would say that secular society views anyone with passionate faith (no matter
    what religion) as weird.
  12. Like
    romans8 got a reaction from Anddenex in Tolerance vs inclusion.   
    This is a complicated balancing act. Tolerance portrays the concept of non-acceptance or viewing
    something as being wrong whereas inclusion could also give one the impression that their actions
    are okay from God's view.
  13. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to Just_A_Guy in The slaying of Laban   
    https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1976/09/i-have-a-question/how-can-i-explain-nephis-killing-laban-to-my-nonmember-friends?lang=eng
     
    https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/was-nephis-slaying-of-laban-legal
  14. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to Traveler in The slaying of Laban   
    It was believed by the ancients that there is an order before G-d that those that break their sacred covenant (duties) in open rebellion against G-d are to be beheaded by the new Proctor or successor of that Covenant.  Another example is the beheading of Goliath by David.  
     
    The Traveler
  15. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to Just_A_Guy in Matthew 11:29 - 30   
    Soteriologically, in comparison to other Western sects of Christianity—Oh, heavens, yes.
    You should read the link I provided.  It’s hard to swim against five centuries of anti-Catholic propaganda; but many Protestant Biblical scholars are beginning to come around.  
  16. Like
    romans8 got a reaction from JohnsonJones in Reaching Out -- The Shame of Ignorance   
    I would not blame yourself.  Even if you had become friends with her, possibly another circle of
    friends may have led her to the same place.
    The past is the past.  But you can change how you would react in a future situation should it arise.
    Matteo
  17. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to Just_A_Guy in Moses and the Red Sea   
    1.  I had never caught that before.  I’d be inclined to take it literally in the absence of good reason to reject it.  (Yes, I’m aware that Exodus only mentions Moses stretching out his arm; I see little reason why it couldn’t be both.)
    2.  I don’t know that Nephi is presuming to modify or supplement the Book of Exodus’s account here.  Exodus itself is sufficiently vague as to Pharoah‘s own fate that DeMille’s The Ten Commandments had him surviving the debacle at the Red Sea.  Whatever archaeology, literary analysis, or other scholarship has been able to divine or postulate about the crossing of the Red Sea or Pharoah’s fate, I don’t think the BoM really seeks to engage with that conversation (except, I suppose, that its narrative does seem incompatible with the “sea of reeds” business that secularists keep pushing).
  18. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to Just_A_Guy in Conclusions from D&C 132: 16 - 17?   
    For the purposes of this particular section that conclusion would be misleading.  This section is drawing a distinction between “angel” and “god”; but it’s more of a rhetorical distinction than a theological/definitional one.  The point of verses 16-19 is that, amongst all who are ultimately redeemed by Jesus Christ,  those who do not enter and keep the new and everlasting covenant of marriage (v 16) will be directed in the work of saving souls by (“ministering for”) those who do enter and keep that covenant.
     “Angel” in this context is simply a catch-all term to describe people who attained salvation but not exaltation.  As blessed and holy as their final state is; they have neither spouse, nor continuation of seed, nor any thrones or dominions.  But in other sections of scripture and LDS discourse, “angel” and “god” can be used interchangeably.  We refer, for example, to “angels” like Moroni and Gabriel and Michael (the latter two of whom we equate respectively with Noah and Adam) without making any inference about their somehow having failed to attain eternal marriage or godhood; and indeed Adam is our liturgical archetype for the marital covenant itself.  So, we can’t really develop a consistent, narrow, precise definition for the word “angel”; because the scriptures aren’t that consistent or precise linguistically.
  19. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to Traveler in Preserving the Nephite language   
    Here is my observation as an engineer and scientist.  If you are not willing to "pay" the price for truth in the here and now and for every here and now moving forward - you will most likely end up quite lost and confused - whether you ever come to realize it or not.  The scripture reference to such is to be blown about with every wind of doctrine.
    I wish you well in your journey and if I can assist you in your quest for truth - I will do so as best I can.  Many years ago I was given divine instruction of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon but have ended up in the years that have followed in a constant quest trying to figure out and understand the treasures (often hidden - or needing spiritual assistance) to be discovered.
     
     
    The Traveler
  20. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to Just_A_Guy in Preserving the Nephite language   
    As @bytebear alludes, it was the gold plates (created and initially written by Nephi) that were written in “reformed Egyptian”).  The brass plates to which Nephi and Lehi are referring in 1 Nephi 3:19 had been created by someone else and were (presumably) written in Hebrew.
    The Lehites may have initially brought other Hebrew documents from Jerusalem with them initially; but they were acutely aware that any physical records they possessed/created would, at some point, be lost (Jacob 4:1-4); the brass and gold plates being the only exceptions to this general rule (Alma 37:1-5).
  21. Like
    romans8 got a reaction from JohnsonJones in Doctrine and Covenants 7: 5 - 6   
    I looked at Doctrine and Covenants 138 and verse 10 says "For for this cause was the gospel preached 
    also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according 
    to God in the spirit".
    This appears to be the same description given to those who inherit a terrestrial glory in Doctrine and
    Covenants 76:71-73 - "And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who 
    are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received 
    the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament. Behold, 
    these are they who died without law; And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the 
    Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the 
    flesh".
    Is there a reference to show proxied work elevates someone into the celestial kingdom?
    Matteo
  22. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to CV75 in Laman and Lemuel rebellion   
    2 Nephi 4 gets into the ongoing and increasing tension between the elder and younger brothers. The bone of contention seems to be focused on Lehi's "first blessing" (the the right of succession and to receive a "double portion" of inheritance belonging to the firstborn child) falling from Laban to Nephi should they refuse to heed his prophetic word (see 2 Nephi1:28-29). We know that Laban and Lemuel had difficulty with that all along.
    The moment of rebellion took full measure in 2 Nephi 5: 1-5, once they sought Nephi's life and the Lord warned in a dream to flee).
  23. Thanks
    romans8 reacted to CV75 in Conclusions from D&C 132: 16 - 17?   
    In this context, it seems to me "angels" means a resurrected person, and all of any kingdom beneath "a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory." will be appointed as ministering servants in some capacity.
  24. Like
    romans8 reacted to CV75 in Lehi and the twelve visitors   
    Good question. As visions go, numbers can be both literal and figurative, and have blended significance, as with other terms such as "luster", "brightness", "book"  and other elements of the vision. In a figurative sense, "12" among the ancient Jews represented perfection, or the union of the people with God. In a literal sense, the vision prefigured the mission of Christ (the "One" and "the first") and His Twelve Apostles, and suggests it may be far more expansive than just their mortal time on earth.
  25. Like
    romans8 reacted to Traveler in Singular righteousness vs unified righteousness   
    I believe this is a great topic for study.  Anciently the meaning of righteous was someone that covenants with G-d.  Here are some of my thoughts:
    - The home teacher that had the greatest impact on my family was a guy to took special interest in our children.  He sometimes came to their sporting events or competitions.   Every Sunday he would talk to the kids about their sports or anything they were doing prior to sacrament meeting - rather then sitting in his pew reverently. 
    - I have always been concerned with temple recommend interviews when I am asked if I am worthy to be at the temple.  One of the main reasons I personally attend the temple is to become more spiritually in tune (more worthy to be there).  Attending the temple - at least for me - is part of a repentance process and an effort to become more closer to being worthy to be in the presents of the Father and the Son.
    - When I lived in Maryland working for the Defense Department - I was the only member in Anti Submarine Warfare division at the Naval Base where I worked.  I also worked for a company in Utah where most were LDS and was a lead engineer on projects where all the engineers were worthy LDS.  To be honest - I felt to be more of a instrument used by G-d when I was the only member.  Sometimes spiritual strength comes of necessity.  The big problem in being in Maryland is being so far from family - but this was also a blessing.  My wife and I had only been married for 3 years when we moved to Maryland where we had no friends or family - we became close having to rely on each other.  It was perhaps our greatest challenge and blessing and made our family very strong and united.
     
    It is my personal belief that those that focus on their individual spirituality and worthiness - do so not understanding their covenants with G-d.  The first covenant with G-d is a turning from individual self righteousness to the care and love of others.  To morn with those that morn and comfort those in need of comfort.  Something I struggle with - weather I am in the midst of the saints are alone myself.  But it does seem there is more opportunity  to morn with those the morn and comfort those in need of comfort in the wilderness seeking out and looking for the one lost sheep than safely in the fold with the 99.
     
    The Traveler