BobMaster

Then that makes two of us. :-).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/38-church-policies-and-guidelines?lang=eng#title_number118 Transgender individuals face complex challenges. Members and nonmembers who identify as transgender—and their family and friends—should be treated with sensitivity, kindness, compassion, and an abundance of Christlike love. All are welcome to attend sacrament meeting, other Sunday meetings, and social events of the Church (see 38.1.1). Gender is an essential characteristic of Heavenly Father’s plan of happiness. The intended meaning of gender in the family proclamation is biological sex at birth. Some people experience feelings of incongruence between their biological sex and their gender identity. As a result, they may identify as transgender. The Church does not take a position on the causes of people identifying themselves as transgender. Most Church participation and some priesthood ordinances are gender neutral. Transgender persons may be baptized and confirmed as outlined in 38.2.3.14. They may also partake of the sacrament and receive priesthood blessings. However, priesthood ordination and temple ordinances are received according to birth sex.

God didn't "take the keys" they already lost them. They polluted and perverted the ordinances to such a point that they lost all meaning. Such as baptism, to baptism another individual who has no concept of right or wrong (i.e. a baby) losing the meaning of what a baptism really is. To baptism an individual who has no understanding of the reality of their own physical biology is a mockery of baptism and it's meaning. Yes, the people of the Church have already been picking and choosing what words they can and cannot follow. This has already been happening for many, many years. We are much, much farther along in the process of apostasy then many members believe (quite a few recognize many issues but are afraid to speak up) for fear of being labeled apostates themselves.

I guess for you, the only disciples of Christ are those who are at the top? No need for you as an individual to proclaim to others they need to repent and follow Christ, as long as the leadership does it, your job is done? You can sit back and not take an active role in declaring repentance? "24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. 26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. 28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents."

The same thing it always is. Repent and turn to Christ. If individually each person repents and turns to Christ, studies the Scriptures-the actual Word of God-rather than hanging on every word of the leadership-hang on the Word of God, it will be very obvious and very plain when they are acting as God's mouthpiece and when they are saying a bunch of nonsense. There is no need for "Revolution" or "Secession", because if and when the body of the Saints become so wicked that they cannot discern truth from error, they will cast out all those who do. For darkness cannot stand to be next to light.

No, we as a people are lacking because we believe all we are given right now is the best that it is. We as a people have a very rigid mindset, which is that a man of God must come from the religious hierarchy and that every word which he speaks is direct from God. When both are false. A man of God, who one who prophesies can come from all walks of life, many times they come from outside the hierarchy (like Abraham-who aid his tithes to Melchezidek, or Lehi, or Jeremiah, and Abinadi). They are always bold, never wavering. We want it both ways, and we are a double-minded people. We want our leaders to be prophets, yet then we ignore what they have prophesied, immediately after they are dead. We have prophets in the 70s and 80s who condemned very forcefully homosexuality and all forms of immorality, yet today as a people we invite homosexuals in to be baptized, hold hands in Church, to cross-dress. We have prophets who condemned pornography, yet at least 30% do it and then we make excuses for it like "it's an addiction" or some other such nonsense. We don't want prophets of God, we want prophets to tell us what we are doing is right. I don't want someone to blow smoke up my rear and say, "your such a wonderful, great, awesome individual", I want someone to tell me where I'm going wrong. I want Apostles who boldly proclaim, "I have seen Christ, he is real". As it is now, their testimonies are no more powerful than mine. The fact that anytime anyone desires for better leaders and is told to shut-up you are an apostate because you desire something other than that which is given, is a real sign of the times. At some point, a lack of desire for better leaders and a lack of desire for leaders who will tell us what to and wherefore, will lead apostasy (if it hasn't already) . . . Unless you believe in your heart that an individual who has such minuscule concept of whether they are a boy or a girl at the most fundamental level can even remotely have a concept of being a disciple of Christ. To believe that someone who is so confused in their mind that they cannot understand basic biology and believe they are a boy when they are a girl-that that individual has the wherewithal and capacity to actually be a disciple (i.e. one who follows in Christ's footsteps) is so outrageous it is stunning that other disciples fall for it. Not a clue whether one is a boy or a girl, confused about the most basic aspect of life, yet that same individual is going to be able to know Christ lives, that he died? The individual can't tell basic physical reality between fact or fiction-how in the world is he/she going to be able to testify (i.e. witness) that Christ lives. That individual believes a fantasy about make-believing he is a girl. When that individual preaches to me about Christ, it makes a mockery of Him. An individual living in a fantasy world, preaching about an individual they have never seen nor heard...Since they live in a fantasy physical reality, how can they possibly tell me of a non-fantasy past world? It makes Christ out to be a fantasy. That other disciples fall for it, is quite sad.

I already said it; again you and carb. are looking for another answer. You want to box me into denouncing the leaders of the Church and thereby doing so be able to completely discard any and every word that I say; I have not and will not do so. They are doing the best they possibly can-but me saying that won't matter.. You already have a pre-concieved notion in your mind as to what I am. No amount of words at this point will convince you otherwise. What is the OP of this thread?

Is every word that a prophet speaks true and from God?

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Which is more important to follow a leader or to follow Christ? They may be one in the same, but not always.

ROFLOL . . .woah, woah, woah. I have not once claimed they are "false" prophets, i.e. that they have prophesied and given Revelations which are false. In fact, if you were paying attention (which is clearly not the case because you have glossed over and ignored many of my comments), I have said that many things Nelson has said are prophetic and are true.

I am no inquisiter, I have not branded you as apostate, but you have done so for me.

Lol-not to an inquisitor who brands themselves as the arbiter of truth.

Lol, and you only see with one eye yourself. You eliminate Enos because it was "only for him", because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Isn't that wonderful. Anyone who conflicts with your ideas is an "apostate". I didn't "dodge" any question, you just like to think I did.

No, Enos? We are so righteous that we don't need one like unto old, I guess.

Again you undercut your own argument. Jeremiah was the son of a Jewish priest, he wasn't the head of the Jewish religious organization. He was a commoner. And actually we are more of a democracy than everyone thinks. Joseph Smith was voted in as 1st Elder, Ridgen was voted in as counselor (regardless of the fact that Joseph Smith didn't want him as one). Brigham Young was voted in by the people. Breaking off and forming your own church is another type of apostasy? RFLOL, then we should all be Catholics, or Orthodoxes! Okey dokey.

You miss the point, if it were scripture we would add it to the canon and treat it as such-but we don't. You are using a circular argument, again, to prove your point. Which boils down to-"ignore everything just follow the leader", "well I'd like to see the leaders show me God's Word", "doesn't matter just follow him because he is the Prophet and gives us Scripture", "but if he gives us Scripture why do we not treat it as such", "doesn't matter follow the Prophet", ignore anything and everything, just "Follow him"-he is treated as Christ without the works of Christ.

Apologies; I keep bringing it up to a meta-level discussion. How can I drop it to a less than meta-level?

Behind the scenes stuff? Sure it's possible. That we as a people are so easily fooled by charlatans who sing praises to God all the while committing whoredoms openly and proudly, speaks much to our current status of being able to discern right from wrong. No it is not a bold prediction-it already has entered into the Church (see above)-those who can see, see it. The amazing thing with the carnival is if people saw it as a carnival it would never become one. They see it as normal. We have instructions that a deluded carnival individual who is a man but believes he is a female should be spoken to with their "preferred" pronouns. We have policies in place that someone who claims they are a female but are a male can be baptized. It's already a carnival, but the ride has just begun! I agree with you on the sustaining comments. I would generally agree with your comments about death/rebirth with a Prophet being removed. I might amend that to say without some split or division occurring-so yes I think that's probably accurate. You are welcome for the liveliness. I enjoy it too, writing and thinking helps clarify things, many times I write to think.

We must be talking cross purposes. I do apologize for the confusion. Yes, I agree with what you wrote above. The question I have is thus: is it possible for a people to sustain as a prophet a man who is not one?

Yes, it is interesting. It is also interesting to know that was one of the things that Monson felt God told him to do and yet 3 years later and not much into Nelson's Presidency it was reversed? That is very curious; I think God was testing his people. How much wickedness do they desire? Yeah well we desire quite a bit of it-so it's going to end up being a full-on carnival in the Church. You are going to see so much carnival upside/down inside the Church it will blow your mind. There will be no reverence for keeping inside the Church holy and sacred; just like allowing an openly homosexual choir (who proudly proclaims their sin) to sing praises to Christ (mind-blowing hypocrisy) on Temple ground. The carnival will enter the Church. It's okay though. I understand with the patterns of death and resurrection. That which is true dies and resurrects, that which is false just dies. Out of this death process we are going through, the resurrection of the Church will be impressive. When Nelson states STE get ready it is going to be impressive, I am absolutely in 100% agreement. But first we have to die.

??? Okay, maybe I misinterpreted your writings, if so I apologize. I thought you were saying the did need a people to sustain them.

"to lead astray", i.e. to teach that which in the sight of God is not right. Obviously if, a Prophet cannot lead astray a people, "i.e. teach that which is wrong", then whatever he teaches is right. Apologies I should have said teach not do. Do I believe homosexuality in the Temples. Yes, I absolutely do believe it is going to happen. 10-15 years. The members will clamor for it. To not do so in will bring such amount of persecution upon the Saints it will be bad. As a people, we haven't been persecuted in over 100 years. There is no evidence that as a people we have a backbone strong enough to withstand any measure of persecution. I'm not rejecting their calling. They have broken the patterns in Scriptures, at the highest levels on a very symbolic level. Now whether those patterns being broken are because they wanted them broken, or simply a manifestation of a people who has broken the patterns. That's what you're not understanding, I pay very close attention and they are merely manifesting the outward change in symbols of the inward change in the people. I can say with absolute firmness and assuredly that the Saints as a body are whoring after other gods. Why do you think Hosea married a prostitute? He was a prophet and commanded by God to do so. Why? Because he was only demonstrating at a higher level the inward corruptness and wickedness of ancient Israel. Why do you think God commanded Nelson to break the patterns? Because he is only demonstrating at a higher level the inward corruptness and whoring after other gods of modern Israel.

So Samuel the Lamanite, a wonderful prophet? The people took a vote to sustain him? Might want to read that story again. A prophet does not need a formal sustaining vote to be a prophet. Whether a group of people recognize a man as a prophet or not is irrelevant to him being a prophet. Jonah? He didn't need to be "sustained", he just was. In fact, many, many times the people reject the prophets because they come from outside the established lines of authority and hierarchy.

Now much of that I agree with. Thank you; very well stated. I do agree that WW was shown a vision and then he was given the choice, so were the Saints. Where did they place their faith? Did they place their faith in the commandments that God gave them and they would submit to those commandments regardless of the outcome, giving up their very lives if necessary? Or would they submit to Caesar? I agree with you on that aspect. Totally. It's why I don't have animosity or anger to WW. He made a choice, that choice was his to make. What I have issue with is that if we truly believe in our faith, if we truly believe in Nephi's statement, then there is no way they should have ever submitted. The submitted because their faith in God failed. They did not have sufficient faith to endure all trials in order to do what God commanded. And yes, for now there is no other place. Yet at some point, the Church body will become so corrupted, so wicked that they will cast out any who do not follow in whoredoms. At some point, the ordinances will have become so corrupted that it won't really matter. My allegience is to God not the Church and for now it is the best and only place to reside. At some point that will probably change.