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Aparently there are those who DO feel the chuch has "gone too far" with this. This was on KSL web site yesterday: Some upset by LDS Church call for political participation June 28th, 2008 @ 1:14pm By JENNIFER DOBNER Associated Press Writer SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- Lester Leavitt wrote a letter asking family members to make a decision. The Pompano Beach, Fla. man wanted his siblings and children to choose family over a call from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints leaders to support a November ballot initiative to define traditional marriage in California's constitution. A lifetime member of the Church who came out as a gay man in 2004, Leavitt wants his California relatives to walk out when a letter from the Church's leaders is read. "I thought by asking my family to do this, I was simply asking them to send a strong message to Salt Lake City that they disagree with the idea that any church has the right to entrench clearly religious dogma into the constitution of a state or country," he wrote in a letter posted on an Internet discussion group called q-saints. "I was just asking them to defend my civil rights." A letter from Thomas S. Monson, president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, was to be read from the pulpit in church congregations Sunday. After working as an activist on behalf of gay members of the Church and surviving an excommunication attempt by his local bishop, Leavitt said Monson's letter was a disappointing last straw. He sent a certified letter to the Church's Salt Lake City headquarters Wednesday asking to have his name removed from the roles. "I wanted to remain a cultural Mormon," Leavitt, 44, said Thursday. "I thought there was a way, an opening up, but then all of a sudden, the Church decides this ... and I'm not going to wait around." Leavitt is far from alone. Since the letter first began circulating on the Web last weekend, hundreds of Church member blog postings have expressed disbelief, disappointment and outrage at the Church's decision to wade into politics. "I don't really know anybody who takes issue with a Church's right to its moral position and teachings," said Nick Literski, of Seattle, a former Church member who is gay. "It's when they take a political action to impose those beliefs on society that people object. Even people who don't support marriage equality are still upset about this." Officially, the Church teaches that homosexual sex is a sin, although celibate gays can remain active in church callings and activities. Since the 1990s the Church has been politically active in defeating same-sex marriage initiatives nationwide, including asking its members to vigorously help pass California's Proposition 22 in 2000, which prohibited California from legally recognizing gay marriages performed outside the state. But over the last five years the church had seemed to undergo a subtle shift in position. Leaders have been more silent and limited the Church's activism to filing legal briefs and a signature on a 2006 letter to Congress supporting a federal marriage amendment. In addition the rhetoric around what the Church calls same-gender attraction had softened and Latter-day Saints have been encouraged to encircle gay members with love and compassion. Even a short statement of disappointment after last month's California's Supreme Court decision to legalize gay marriage was mild. "Maybe I was just optimistic. I thought they might sit on the sidelines and not have any bad press," said Matt Thurston, a 39-year-old Church member from Corona, Calif., who is not gay. "Between (2000) and now, some of the things I've seen, some of the statements that have come out, they seemed much more sympathetic ... They don't treat it in the same way they used to." Although President Monson's letter states the faith's "unequivocal" moral position that marriage between a man and a woman is an institution ordained by God seems to indicate no change of heart by leaders, many wonder if the general membership will rally to political participation with the same fervor as in 2000. Wards were assessed fundraising goals and members walked door-to-door to get out the vote eight years ago. "There is that culture of obedience that once the proclamation has been raised, that's it," said Jeffrey Nielsen, a professor of philosophy who was ousted from the Church-owned Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah in 2006 after criticizing the Church's position on gay marriage in a local newspaper column. At the same time, the Church preaches that God blesses each person with the agency to make his or her own decisions and some may not surrender that freedom so easily, said Nielsen, who has submitted an open letter to his fellow Church members and to several California newspapers. "A growing number of active Mormons, who have gay friends and family members are coming to the conclusion that our current leaders are as mistaken in promoting discrimination against gays and lesbians as was the Mormon hierarchy in the 60's when they opposed equal rights for people of color, and our Mormon leaders in the 70's when they opposed full legal equality for women," he writes. "No one is asking that you condone a behavior that might violate your religious faith, but we need to allow everyone the freedom to live their life as they see fit." That the Church has changed in the past -- black men, for example were finally granted full ecclesiastical authority in 1978 -- gives Nielsen and others hope for its future. A generation of leaders who grew up alongside openly gay friends or relatives and a belief in continuing revelation offer opportunities for a new direction. "Even if you take this from the LDS point of view where changes can only be made by revelation, by God, you still have to have leaders who are willing to ask the question," said Literski, 41, who was married and has five daughters. "There will come a day, I believe, when there will be somebody in authority who is willing. It won't be overnight, but I think we will see an accommodation."

Oh, to answer the query, no, I don't beleive in any of that stuff mentioned, at least not in the way the world sees them. I suppose anything's possible, at the right time, in the right circumstances, as with Christ. But otherwise, nadda.

Reminds me of this eccentric family I taught on my mission. We were making good progress with them thru the lessons. One nite they had us over for dinner. The Mom/Mrs started talking about some crazy levitation she swore up and down they knew how to do. "So, ok. Show us!" They had my companion sit in a chair in the center of the living room. Then the whole family(mom, dad, daughter & son) gathered around him, put thier collective hands over his head, but not touching, and started with some wierd chant, and then walking around him in a circle. They stopped, put just and index finger each under the chair, and claimed at this point my companion would become almost weightless(and the chair) and they will lift them into the air with just one finger each. It didn't work(yeah, duh!) They were shocked! Then scared! Long story shorter, they became convinced that what they were doing was of Satan, and because we held the Priesthood of God, we prevented this crazy thing from working. We baptised the whole family soon after. Wonder if they stayed active?

Let's just say that Porter Rockwell is one of my heros.

Oh, c'mon. Let's be real here. I'll respect anyones wishes to do as they feel they need to in their spiritual quest. I have to do that with my brother. But unless you've actually gone thru watching a close family member leave the church, you have no idea of the emotional drain it is on you. It took me a couple years to stop stressing over it, wondering what I, or anyone else could have done to help him see what he was doing. It's a very, very difficult thing to go thru. So yes, I'd love to walk up to my brother, slap him up the side of the head, and tell him to REALLY think about his choice. And do it with all the love I have for him. Which is ALOT! But I won't. I sit back, I keep quiet about it, and I hope him(and this person here) all the best. And hope and pray they someday realize the mistake. Now don't EVEN tell me that's not what everyone here is REALLY thinking deep inside, but won't say it, because we're supposed to be all warm and fuzzy. It's what we Mormons do, right? Now c'mon. Group hug.

My brother did the same thing a few years ago. Wish I could do the same thing to him, that I'd like to do to anyone doing this.....whack them up the side of the head. That's my HONEST response. Sorry. Have a good life.

Yes, been there, am doing that. I asked a past Bishop what all I need to talk about, how far back to go, ect. He actually left it mostly up to me. But he was most concerned with my current issues, not what happened 10 years ago. If I had a list of sins going back that far, and had truely left them behind, he was satisfied with that. We tend to be tougher on ourselves than a Bishop(or the Lord), so he said I'd probably already more than paid for those sins. I suppose adultry and murder would need to be dealt with, but anything less than that could be considered a done deal. But, as other have said, talk it over with the Bishop, and go from there. One thing I have done, is have a prayer just before going in to my Bishops office, and ask that the Spirit would guide the discussion, and that anything that needed to be dealt with would come up. Sounds simple, but it works! I had something I'd almost forgotten about come to my mind in one interview, and it did nned to be talked about. So try that.

I tried it for awhile. Was warned "it gets rough" there. What I wasn't warned about, was some of the roughest players there are members of the church(!!!) Too many self righteous know-it-alls there, IMHO. It became pointless when I had a harder time defending my opinions/ideas/thoughts to other church members than I've ever had with non-members. But, have fun:D

Don't know if you'll see this before you go in, but hang in there. They're kinda nervewracking, but when it's over, you'll be greatful you went thru with it. There's nothing but the utmost love and concern for the one in the hot seat. Been there, done that.

I think Solace was looking for a simpler answer then all THAT! I just moved to Utah going on 3 years ago, and so far have not encountered any of what you're talking about. Luckily. I've been visiting this state since I was a kid(lotsa relatives here), and always heard those kind of stories. And I knew people that had moved here, then moved right back(to Washington state) because of what they encountered. I dunno. Maybe it's a region by region thing here. Maybe I lucked out and moved to a "friendly" area. Our ward was very warm from the start, with no apparent issues at all. It's a age-mixed ward, meaning there's a alot of young couples, as well as old timers that grew up here. So I imagine if I was going to encounter any issues, I would have by now. I've talked to a few friends at work and asked them about this. One fella is from California, and not a member. I asked him point blank if he's had any prob's with self-righteous Mormons since moving here, and he said no, not at all. And he IS an overly sensitive guy. We have to be careful how we tease and joke around with him. So, maybe it's alot in how sensative you want to be about it, or maybe you were unlucky enough to move into the middle of a bunch of LDS hypocrites. I know they're out there. I've encountered plenty of them outside Utah.

Some good(some not so good) dialogues on gospel doctrine, and how it is answered to others, goes on here: http://www.mormonapologetics.org/ May want to search their discussions, or register and pose this question there youself. This forum seems short on answering these kind of questions by anything other than the usual "pat answers" you hear in sunday school, no offense intended. I've pretty much given up on trying myself.

-sigh- No, I'm NOT out to "PROVE" a freakin thing. Make a point, yes. Prove, no. I'm completely understanding that this is obviously a grey area, kinda like caffiene. Not a temple recommend question per se, but there's still an underlying gospel concept that I think the Lord expects us to explore and discover on our own, then learn to live it. Or not. Look, we're all supposedly on the same side here. So let's just drop it. Not worth getting our collective panties in a bunch anymore on this. Sheesh.

You totally missed my point. never mind.

Ward Pointer. He's the fella that sits up front during a Sacrement Meeting, and as a speaker is talking about various gospel matters, he'd stand up and point to those in the congregation to which that particular subject relates. Could come in handy on judgement day.

Oh, the EQP. My stories aren't always real clear.