SeattleTruthSeeker

Here is how my last discussion went on the topic of the Trinity and Mormonism. My question: You believe that God is spirit right? evangelical Christian: Yes, He is spirit. My Question: Okay, keeping that in mind, The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are of one essence and substance right? This is according to the Nicene Creed and the Athenasian Creed right? evangelical Christian: Yes, that is true, they are of the same essence and substance. My Question: Have you carefully read the Nicene Creed? evangelical Christian: Umm, no why? My Question/Response: Well, if you had not really taken the time to read what the Nicene Creed says, then how are you confident in knowing exactly what it says as to the nature of The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit? This was where he started floundering. Keep in mind how evangelical Christians view the Trinity and how the Latter-day Saints view the Godhead and the Nicene Creed (and it is important to follow this). evangelical Christian: I am not really sure, but I know the bible says that the Father, Son and Spirit are one manifested in three different beings and not three separate Gods. My question: If I were to share with you exactly what the Nicene Creed actually says, would you say that what it says is Biblical or Unbiblical? evangelical Christian: It is biblical, why would it be unbiblical. I then pull out a printed version of the Nicene Creed and then had the person read the first part of it: "We believe in One God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth, of all that is, seen and unseen" I then had him stop right there and then re-read that first part. My question went along the lines of this: So, who created the Heavens and the Earth - According to the Nicene Creed? evangelical Christian: Well it says here that God, the Father created Heaven and Earth. Okay, so let us see what the Bible has to say. We know that Genesis says that God created Heaven and Earth right? Evangelical Christian: That is correct. My question/response: Okay, but later on, we have several New Testament Passages that say something different. For instance - John 1:1 says that in the Beginning was the Word, that this word was with God, and that this word was God. It then goes on to say that the Word created all things in Heaven and Earth, that which is seen and unseen (I then point to the Passage in my NASB version). Now, we know that John is not talking about the Father right? evangelical Christian: Right, because John is talking about Christ, and that Christ is the word. My question: So you agree that Christ was in the Beginning with God right? evangelical Christian: Yes, and that he is God. Here is where it got really interesting. My question: Okay, so in Genesis, God creates Heaven and Earth. John says that the Word was with God, and that the Word is God and that the Word created all things. evangelical Christian: Yes, that is correct, but if you go further... My response/question: Yes, let us go further. John states that this word came into the world by becoming flesh. Now, who came into the world by taking upon himself mortal flesh? evangelical Christian: Well Christ did, but... My response: No but's we are analyzing the Nicene creed here in light of the Trinitarian doctrine and teaching. We have already established that God is spirit. We have established that God is the Maker of Heaven and Earth. We have established that God was the word and that this word existed with God and that the Word was God from the beginning who created all things. We also know that the Word became flesh according to the Testimony of John. So, if God became flesh, then that means God could no longer be considered spirit correct? evangelical Christian: Well yeah, if you are interpreting it that way, but you see.. My response: No, it is not a matter of how I am interpreting it, it is a matter of what we are reading and seeing it say. Do you not see that the Nicene Creed says that God is the Almighty Father, maker of Heaven and Earth? (I had him read it again, then read the Genesis account, and then read John 1). According to the first part of the Nicene creed, Genesis 1 and John 1, who is the maker of Heaven and Earth? And, who came and took upon themselves mortal flesh? Are they the same person and being? And, if they are the same person and being, does that mean that their essence and substance has changed - meaning that God could no longer be considered spirit, but he took on a mortal body of flesh and bone? This is why it gets interesting because the person I had this dialogue with started showing signs of confusion and wanted to try and steer the conversation further than where I wanted it to go. It is important that we stay within the context of the discussion and focus on bits and pieces at a time. My question: Okay, so we have the Word becoming Flesh and that the Word created all things. Is John the only one that spoke of the Word being the one who created all things in Heaven and Earth? No, here are a couple of passages of scripture we have to consider. Colossians 1:16-17 teach that it was Christ, the prophesied Messiah who created all things. Again, I go from beginning to this point. Evangelical Christian: May I ask how this relates to teh Trinity and Mormonism and how you are able to prove that the Trinity is unbiblical? My response/question; We will get to that point here. Let us read the Nicene Creed - I then had him read the next part. He then read it and I stopped him. evangelical Christian: Well this says exactly what I believe and what the Bible teaches. My response and question: I agree as well, but notice a couple things in the statement about Christ. 1) The father created all things through the power and authority of Jesus Christ; 2) Christ is begotten of God and is From God - Light from Light, and Truth from Truth. Now, how can a single person beget a single person? We already know that Christ came down and took upon himself a physical body of flesh and bone. We already know that he existed with God. We even know that Christ is God, but his he The God, the Almighty Father, and the Most High? And, finally, 3) He came down and was the Savior of Mankind. evangelical Christian: Well it does say that the Father and the son are one being. My response and answer: Yes, I agree, but how can they be one Being if they are two separate and distinct persons from one another insomuch that the Son possesses a body of flesh and bone and that the Father is Spirit? They can't be one being , unless you believe that Christ truly is God and that he abandoned Heaven and became Christ, the Savior, only to ascend again and became the Holy Spirit? (Which is modalism). We have the testimony of John that Christ existed with the Father - The word was with God, the word was God, and the Word created all things. 1) Christ is the Word, 2) Christ was with God 3) Christ is God 4) Christ created all things in heaven and earth. Yet, 1) The Father created all things through his Son 2) His Son is the Only Begotten of God and Man (Virgin Birth) 3) The Son possesses a body of flesh and bone, resurrected and glorified. Do you still believe that God is spirit and that the Trinity is true? As the discussion progressed and I shared more scriptures within the Biblical text, I showed my evangelical Pastor the reality of how the Trinity did not properly meet the Biblical Standards. How that Christ was God of the Old Testament and that the Nicene creed did not fully establish the true nature and reality of the Godhead. I then showed him how Christ's prayer referred to Christ referring to his former glory he held with the Father. If he was the Father to begin with, why would he pray for his former glory to be restored unto him once again? My pastor friend could not answer that question. My answer to the question is because Christ held the same glory as his father and both are separate and distinct from one another and not some cosmic uncomprehensible being - especially when Christ said that the purpose of his mission was to testify of the Father and himself.

When I was smoking, I kept telling myself that "Eventually I will quit," An Alcoholic says that he/she will eventually want to quit. A gambler says to himself/herself, I will eventually quit, just not right now. What do all of these have in common with what you are relating? The commonality is this: When we are doing things that are unhealthy and contrary to what we know to be right and true, we make excuses. We prolong and procrastinate. While you ask a question of whether or not you ought to still go to church and yet maintain your lifestyle is like a married man asking if he should still remain married while cheating on his wife with another woman. Yes, you are more than welcome to come to Church. Your boyfriend is more than welcome to come to Church. Yet, the question is not whether or not you are able to come to church and read your scriptures, the question is are you willing to handle sitting in with your bishop and explaining your situation with him. My wife and I were lucky. We had a very wonderful Bishop who encouraged us to continue to come to church. Ask people here that know me and how much I was against the Church (yes, I used to be an apostate). My wife and I used to live together before we were married. She was still asked by her bishop to wear her temple garments (she is an endowed member). We had hometeachers who came and talked with us. They did not condemn us, they accepted us and helped out us out as much as possible. It was not until our Bishop finally said that we needed to marry. While we were already planning our marriage and how it was going to be, we prayed and realized that the best thing for us was to be married sooner than we had planned. It was a small wonderful ceremony. Nothing too extravagant. My wife made her own wedding cake, I wore a shirt and tie. We were married by our Bishop. Soon after that we went through the repentance process, my wife was reinstated and then I was (well my records were straightened out after 15 some years, except for one detail that still needs to be fixed). We both now are serving a calling in our new ward. We are now having FHE (not frequently, but we are working on it), and we are starting to abide by the Word of Wisdom (I have been smoke free for almost 2 years come this June). Because of this, we now also have a wonderful 14 month old little girl that has changed our lives in ways we are just blessed with. Do we still struggle? Yes, do we still have our own issues? You bet. Are we the typical Molly Mormon and Peter Mormon - Nope. So, while you are more than welcome to come to Church and Ready your scriptures, you personally have to get to the point in your life to make a decision of what really is more important. Continue to live a life that is not in accordance with the Church standards and make excuses that you will eventually get around to changing, or willing to be open and honest with yourself that as you take small steps, they will lead you into a more fulfilling and happier life (not saying you are not happy). The decision is ultimately up to you. I encourage you to read the account of the Rich Young Ruler and the Prodigal Son. While you read the Rich Young Ruler, instead of thinking of wealth, think of your personal situation. Insert your name and situation in the context. Do this for the next thirty days (seriously, not kidding here) and then see what happens. I wish you luck.

I just saw the sticky post lol...

Most Christians balk at the idea of the Documentary Hypothesis when they don't even understand the reality behind it. Thank you for that insightfulness there. Are you suggesting that Lehi and his family followed the Eloist tradition where they believed in the Most High and that of the Lord (YHWH) of Israel? This would make sense in how the original 1830 was written and how it referenced an Eloist position.

There is a trend in this forum for people to come in and ask for advice about Pornography, Infidelity, and ailments that are facing marriages. As many of us read, respond to, and participate in the ongoing discussions, there is the sense that much of what is being asked and discussed has already been posted in some form or another by another poster. So, it is my hope that the mod's make this a sticky and that people who are having questions about their marital relationships come here and read this first before posting their questions for advice. Whether you want to call these rules or guidelines, it is up to the individual reader. However, I feel there needs to be some sort of parameter established regarding how one seeks after advice from others. First, there are several pamphlets that have already been published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. These resources are basic and ought to be consulted by those who are seeking advice. Resources to consult, read, study, and ponder President Howard W. Hunter - "Being a Righteous Husband and Father" originally published in the November 1994 issue of the Ensign President David O Mckay - Marriage and Divorce April 8, 1945 General Conference Address Terrance D. Olson - Seeking the Spirit in Marriage, October, 1987 Ensign President Ezra Taft Benson - To the Fathers in Israel, 1987 General Conference At Home with the Hinckly's - An interview regarding Marriage. President Hinkley - Marriage that Endures President Hinckley - What God Hath Joined Coping with Difficulties in Marriage Elder Robert L. Simpson, 1982 - A Lasting Marriage Charles B. Beckert - Pitfalls of Parallel Marriages Spencer W. Kimball - First Presidency Message - Oneness In Marriage Kenneth W. Matheson - Fidelity in Marriage: It's more than you think Mending our Marriages - Oct. 1996 Ensign Combating Pornography Website NOTE: This is a strong resource for those spouses who have discovered, suspect, or are dealing with the addiction of pornography and how to assist the spouse in their recovery. Since much of the threads here deal with pornography (either because a spouse comes here to confess their addiction, or a spouse who has recently discovered their husband/wife with the addiction to pornography) this website should become your friend. Blended (Step-Families) Divorce Additional Marriage Resources There are probably more resources available that deal with Marriage and difficulties in marriage, but these resources are here for those seeking advice. utilize these resources to your advantage. Read them, ponder them, study them. Now that we have established a small library of resources, let us get to the guidelines here (or my own personal guidelines that I would like to see implemented in this forum). 1) Understand that when you post a thread where you are seeking advice, you will be receiving constructive criticism, as well as hard-line questioning. This is not because we are being mean-spirited, but the frequency of one person posting similar stories of spousal infidelity (Caught my wife/husband cheating - what do I do?) to harsh commentary that calls your integrity and character into question. Meaning, do not post something in this forum where you are not willing to endure positive and negative comments to your posting. 2) Read previous threads (maybe the Moderators can pool together a list of the common threads that deal with some of the common advice posters are asking for and categorize them so that they are searchable) as to what has already been said on similar subject of your advice. Meaning, if you are going to post something about catching your spouse having an affair with another person, then find those threads where others have previously posted and where there is discussion going on. This helps alleviate new posts on the same topic of advice and will actually engage everyone to discuss the topic openly and more appropriately. Why do we need twenty threads on the same "I just found out my spouse is cheating on me, what should I do?" 3) Understand that we are human beings and that each one of us have different perceptions on the same thing. While some of us are able to show forth empathy towards the posters who come here for advice, there are others who are more blunt and honest in their approach. Sometimes we have the best intentions at heart, and sometimes come off as offensive when we are being sincere and truthful. Other times, we are just being brutally honest with the topic at hand. 4) When posters recommend the person who is seeking advice to go to their Bishop/Branch President, this is not to discourage you, but is appropriate. If it is something where you need to confess grievous sins that is the more appropriate route to go. This is so that you get that person-to-person counseling one needs. While there is something of an anonymity in posting online one's "confession" it should not constitute having done so in a Church and ecclesiastical setting. Church Discipline is there to help the individuals who are struggling and allows those who need such counseling to begin the repentance process and healing. This is where you will receive the advice of another, work on the issues at hand. Something that really can't be accomplished online. 5) Keep those who are participating in these sensitive discussions updated on ones progress. This helps those who want advice to continue to find solace in knowing that there are members of the Church here to help, listen, pray, and encourage. Plus it gives you that added bonus of being held accountable for what you are doing and how you are progressing. This also allows those participating in seeing who really is sincere in seeking advice and change whereas there are some who just come here and post under a fictitious name and then abandon's the thread, only to come back months later with something similar, or more complaints as to what other problems are going on in the marriage relationship. As previously stated, I hope the moderators will make this a sticky so that people who are coming here for advice can refer to the resources presented, be able to gauge their posting and ensure that they are really here for the right reasons. We all need help, some more than others, but we all are in this together and we are here to help. Timothy R. Berman

They were Jews, so they would have access to the records that were already written. Since this was prior to the Hellinization period, they would have had the Hebrew rendering of the scriptures. Most likely Genesis this would include Isaiah.

Here is my thoughts: It is good that you are serving your mission. I honestly regret not having to serve mine. It pains me greatly when I hear about someone who talks about their mission, how wonderful it was. My wife is the only member in her family and the only one who served a mission. We talk about her mission all the time, and I confided into her that I wished I had gone on my mission. Second thoughts: Get the DVD One Good Man and invite her parents and your bride-to-be over for a FHE and watch it as a family. Maybe this will help you out with your relationship with the In-Laws. Keep this in mind, this may not be the right time for you to marry someone. Serving your mission is going to afford you greater blessings and opportunities that you will otherwise miss.

I want you to carefully read the following passage. Very slowly, very thoughtfully, and very carefully. Trust me, it is one eye opening reading that will make your head spin in so many directions that the movie exorcist will be child's play. This is not Anti-Mormon, This is not fabricated lies, this is not something to take very lightly. It is right out of the very source that many of us receive divine inspiration. It is right out of a source that we put our faith, trust, and hope in. Most Christians who come to this passage and read it, tend to become very doubtful and tend to lean more toward atheistic thoughts and discussions. This account is 1 Samuel 15. Trust me, you have to sit down and read it very carefully, maybe twice, or several times. Then, and only then, when you have had enough of reading something like 1 Samuel 15, I want you to come back and read some of the accounts in the Journal of Discourse, I want you to read some of the things that Brigham Young taught. Then, and only then, I want you to read about the history of Slavery (not the water down version), but read about how Christians treated some of the slaves, and what they preached. Then, and only then, I want you to look at some of the laws that were in place (for instance, Virginia had a law where a wife and her lover caught in an adultreous affair, they were tried, convicted and put to death for the crime of Adultry). Then, and only then, I want you to go back and read about how the Catholic Church punished, incarcerated, burned at the stake those who challenged the authority of the Church. Those who questioned the Church. Those who were called Heretics and hunted down (here is a hint, research and study Tyndale, Wycliffe, et all). Once you have done all that, the end result - if you have serious questions about Brigham Young, they will pale in comparison as to some of the things you find that were done in the name of Christianity. Crusades Bosnian Christians murdering and raping Bosnian Muslims (research it) Colonial Christians beating and starving slaves and treating them like beasts of the field. I wish you luck in this venture. It is not to be mean spirited, it is not to ridicule you, it is to get you to open your eyes that the very same cases can be made against some of the more prominent figures in Scripture and Christian history and tradition. These are things that evangelical "Christians" don't preach about and teach those who m they are witnessing too. Sound familiar?

Joseph Smith plagarized the Bible in the same manner that the Apostle Paul plagarized from the Old Testament. Joseph Smith plagarized the Bible in the same manner that the Synoptic Gospels (Specifically Matthew) plagarized from the Old Testament. Joseph Smith Plagarized the Bible in the same manner that the Epistle of Jude plagarized from the Book of Enoch. Joseph Smith Plagarized from the Bible in the same manner that the account of Noah's Flood plagarized from the Sumarian Flood Story known as the Epic of Gilgamesh (which predates the Biblical Account). Joseph Smith Plagarized from the Bible in the same manner that the many of the copy evidence for the New Testament plagarized from the Autographs. Conclusion - If Joseph Smith plagarized from the Bible and Joseph Smith is a false Prophet, and the Book of Mormon is a False record and scripture then so also is the Bible and Paul is a false Apostle, the Gospel of Matthew is a false record, Jude is a False record, the account of Noah's flood is a false account. When the critic's logic is employed to them on their grounds and on their terms, then they have to accept that much of the Bible is plagarized in and of itself and therefore if plagarism is the standard to accept or reject scripture, they must reject the Bible entirely. The problem is, plagarism is falsely ascribed to how Joseph Smith translated the record because Plagarism is defined as a person who takes a writing of someone else and then ascribes themselves as being the original author of such document. Joseph Smith never made the claim to have originally authored the Book of Mormon, but was its translator and may have used the Bible as a source in his translation process because of his familiarity with the Bible, this does not mean that the Book of Mormon is not inspired and authentic. For further information on this see the following article: Did Joseph Smith Plagiarize from the King James Bible?

I have to admit, when I first read the title of this thread, my thought instantly turned to a parody of "Let's Get Physical" by Olivia Newton John Let's get Biblical Biblical. I wanna get Biblical let's get into Biblical Let me hear your scriptures talk, scriptures talk let me hear your scriptures talk

The problem is this: If it is okay to change 6 words in a classical piece of literature, then it is okay to start going through and making changes to sentences, and other phrases that will suddenly be deemed "offensive". And, as a writer, if I were to write an historical novel set during the Civil War and used the "N" word, then I would be condemned, and censored to not use that word, but to use the word "Slave" instead. Thereby, I will be dictated to write according to the censor's so that I don't use an "offensive word" even though that word was common in that time frame and historical setting. Much like writing the word "Gay" or "Queer" today, those two words mean a person of a homosexual persuasion, yet this was not the case many years ago when the word "Gay" means happy and "Queer" means unique. In fact, even the word "Fag" in the appropriate context will become inappropriate - regardless the context. This is the problem of censorship and changing 6 words in one book. Those 6 words will become 6 sentences, and then become paragraphs, pages, and down to even whole books.

It would be like putting a loin cloth on the statue of David so that young impressionable minds are not offended by the "grossly pornographic" nature of this Statue. We have to shelter our young for such offensive material right?

It goes to show how far our "Politically Correct" Society has come.

When it Hits Home - a new blog post over at my blog Reasoning with the Critics opens up the discussion with a very delicate and timely topic. That of personal apostasy and how today's Evangelical Christian movement is targeting members of the Restored Gospel. Unlike previous topics of discussion, this one opens up with the idea that when a person leaves the LDS Church, they are also leaving behind their family. Contention arises on both sides, disagreements abound, and the reality that there is a very divisiveness between strained relationships is a very real dilemma. How do we, as members of Christ's restored gospel, respond when we personally encounter family members who have decided to exercise their moral agency and leave the faith? How are we to respond that when they enter into our home, and conversation inevitably ensues on the topic of religion, and inform us that they wish us to leave the LDS faith just as they have? Today, bearing one's testimony is not enough in countering the aggressive witnessing techniques modern Evangelicals use to "win lost Mormon souls" to Christ, especially when those whom they are targeting are our own family members. Come share your thoughts and experiences (especially if you have had a family member who has left the faith, or have personally left the LDS Faith and have now recently come back).

Expect to go this alone. That is the brutal truth and realization that you have to come to. Face it, why would you expect to have something to do with someone after you are told they were: 1) Unfaithful to you 2) Desired "Fantasy Women" rather than your own flesh 3) Make you feel unwanted, unwelcomed, and unattractive. Quite honestly, I am sick of people posting in this forum for advice with the clitched statement of "I want HER to participate in my recovery process". The fact of the matter is this - The only person who needs to participate in the recovery process is the person who did the damage to begin with. Yes, we must seek the forgiveness of those we have hurt, attempt to make restitution for the things we have done (which is why Sexual transgression is a major condemnation because there is no restitution of infidelity, or extramarital affairs). As stated before, the reality is that you have to do this on your own. When you start living your life in accordance with the gospel principles and commandments is when you might start seeing her come around. The number one thing a husband has to come to the realization is this: When you destroy a woman's faith, trust, and heart in you and your relationship, it is like the sinking of the Titanic. The damage is done and all you have going is the inevitable destruction. Very few due come out collectively and stronger as a husband and wife. And, just as much as you have to make your amends, peace, and walk your own path of repentance, she has to go through the grieving process herself, and her own healing. Asking her to participate in your recovery without recognizing that she has her own emotions to recover, and her own journey through the shipwreck you caused is asking a victim of a crime to help the armed robber with his weekly counseling objectives.

Here is my thought on the whole "Provide Proof Before I Believe" - this works very well. MormonCritic: "Prove to me that the Book of Mormon is really authentic by pointing to where Zerehemla is, and horses were here prior to the Spanish Conquest, et all." Mormon: "Sure, I will do that, but first you have to provide some proof yourself for me." MormonCritic: "What is that?" Mormon: "Provide archaeological Evidence and empirical Evidence for the reality of a person named Jesus Christ and that he truly rose the third day as the New Testament Teaches. When you can provide this Archaeological Evidence, then I will provide the same Archaeological Evidence for the aunthenticity of the Book of Mormon." MormonCritic: "That is easy, The Bible says he rose the third day and that is all the proof there is." Mormon: "Actually no, I asked for actual Archaeological Evidence that Christ existed, lived, died, and rose as the Bible teaches. Surely you can provide Archaeological proof that is independent of Christian teaching, tradition, and Biblical Interpretation." MormonCritic: "That is impossible, you have to believe and have faith that Christ truly lived, was crucified, and was resurrected. Even if there were proof you would not believe it anyway." Mormon (as he/she taps the Book of Mormon): "Exactly, it is impossible to believe something, even if Christ himself were to reveal himself to those who are skeptic. The New Testament teaches about one called Doubting Thomas who refused to believe that Christ rose from the Grave, and when Christ appeared and showed himself to Thomas, Thomas then believed. Yet, Christ said that those who do not see and yet believe, it is far greater for them. While I am not able to show you actual archaeological Evidence for the existence of the cities, peoples, and histories contained in the Book of Mormon, I testify to you that by true sincere faith God, the Father has revealed to me that this Book talks of Christ, preaches of Christ, and teaches us how to live our lives in accordance with the way Christ himself taught we ought to live our lives." (hands the copy to the critic), "Now, do you take empirical evidence and physical proof to be more important than trusting in God and what God reveals that requires faith?"

We went to Church today and come to found out a calling was extended to my wife and I. We are going to be teaching the 15-16 year old Sunday School Class. We do not have the manual yet, but it follows the Gospel Doctrine Class of studying through the New Testament. My question here is this: I have the NASB Thompson Chain Reference Study bible. In there, it has some really good resources that I would like to pass out. I will list them here with the link to where they can be viewed at. Tree of Jesus' Life Key to the Tree of Jesus' Life and Harmony of the Gospels Chart Two Chart Three Chart Four My reason for including this type of information is because it provides in-depth study in the life of our Savior Jesus Christ.

Pornography is essentially viewing pictures or films that depict the act of sexual gratification. Here is a question, would you look through your neighbor's window and watch them having sexual intercourse? Most likely not (unless you are that depraved). The reason I ask this question is because that is essentially what you are doing. Granted, the Porn industry is one of the fastest (and most lucrative) industries in our culture. One can't say that viewing the naked human body as being pornographic unless one is willing to say that they refuse to go to the Art Museum where there are classic art pieces that are of the naked body (Archaeological Artificats depicting naked women, National Geographic pictures of native cultures where women naturally are naked because of custom and culture relevant to that particular area of humanity). There are some who struggle with pornography where they can't even look at catalogues or advertisements where a woman is dressed in bra, lingere or the like. This is because the temptation is too much for them. The ultimate goal of true pornography is to fulfill sexual fantasies and sexual gratification. In the marital context, the viewing of pornography hurts the spouse because in this sense, the person participating in the viewing of pornography is essentially "fantasizing" about other women and (in some cases) attempts to live out those "fantasies" vicariously through his/her spouse. The threat pornography has on the marriage as well is that of "infidelity" because the person addicted to pornography is trading the sexual intimacy they would have with their spouse for that of what they are viewing (magazine, internet, movies, et all). Pornography also has various levels. Soft Porn (which is most R- Rated movies), then there is Hard Porn, Bondage S/M, and it goes further and further into deeper depasement - including Child Pornography, Rape, Incest, Homosexual Activity and Behavior, Experimenting, and other such sexual activities that I will not even bother mentioning. Like most addictions, Pornography drags a person deeper and deeper into the depths of depravity. The previous no longer becomes satisfying and they go deeper into finding that gratification - the "First High" (And yes, Sexual Intimacy does give their partner's a certain "High"). Here is an excerpt of why Pornography is a problem in our society today: Hopefully that answers your question as to why Pornography poses a problem in our society today.

I want to thank everyone for their comments. First, for those who mentioned wic - my wife and daughter are on WIC and my daughter will be on WIC until next year. My hours are getting cut at Wally world because I was hired on a seasonal basis. They want to hire me on permanently, but are being a bit wishy washy. I have applied for an apprenticeship program two years ago, however, the Construction industry is not what it used to be. My main employment that I had been doing the past couple of years has reached a bargaining agreement that I am part of where I will receive a severance package for four years of service. My wife and I have already talked about where the money is going to go. We are expecting to receive close to 3k and most of it is going to get her bills caught up, and pay off some of my bills. As for additional work, I still am on Unemployment Benefits (currently on the Emergency Unemployment Benefits), and will be for the next few months. I still receive unemployment benefits because my work hours are not full time and the pay is significantly lower than before. We are still waiting to hear back from DSHS regarding food. For christmas, we have received a couple of gift cards for Grocery Outlet and will use that to purchase food. I am seeking employment, but there really is not any good paying jobs out there in Washington State. Regarding the plant closure, I have a WARN Letter from my previous employer and will be taking advantage of all the other added benefits of unemployment. This includes additional help from the Worksource here in Washington State where (as funding is available) I can receive additional training, schooling, et all. I am now officially considered a dislocated worker and not just unemployed. I have a message from yesterday from Pace Staffing regarding possible employment opportunities. I am also currently going to school for a Communications Degree that is emphasizing on Technical Communication. My main area of focus is becoming an established Freelance writer. I am even thinking of pursuing an opportunity to become a freelance editor and manuscript critique service.

Everyone, thank you for your comments. We have cut out everything that we could. Taking on a second job is not very conducive financially because we would be spinning our wheels. Why? We have a 13 month old that we would have to place into child care and that would cost us money, money we do not have and a second job would barely cover that expense. Therefore, with me being home during the day, we do not have that expense at all. As for my back child support, it simply is due to the fact that I have not had stable work and therefore was not able to pay child support at times when unemployed. Because of this, I would not be able to pay any support until I found work. Then, it is taken out of my paycheck's and I don't even get income tax refund's because it goes straight to Child support (my wife files for an injured spouse at the end of the year for it). So, it was not that I refused to pay it, it was because I could not pay it when not working. As far as cable - I am all for shutting it off and keep suggesting it to my wife. This will do two things, save us money there, and it will be a luxury my stepson does not need. We are battling with him to get his grades up and all he concerns himself with is television. I hardly watch television, and if I do, it is only an hour or two here. The most we have had to go for is a food order from the Church, and that is not very much because we incorporate what we currently have in the two week menu.

Maureen, I have actually applied for Food Assistance. The only thing we qualify for is Medical for my stepson and daughter. I jokingly told my wife that she could quit her job and then we would get all the help we can get and she could be home with our daughter. And I agree, the title of this thread is throwing people off. Here is how I perceive the double standard. Let us say that I take on a second job. Hardly home with my wife and kids. Bishop calls me in and counsel's me that working too much is taking away time for me to participate in my role and duty as a father. That is where the double standard is. One of those catch 22 kind of things. Either I work two jobs and miss out on Church activities, family activities and leave my wife to work a full time job and take care of all the household chores and not spend any time with her, or have only one job and spend time with her and have the ability to attend church services so that I can have those blessings.

What I meant by interfering with one's family is where I work full time at one job, take up a second part time job, and do my schooling and have no time with my family at all. That is what I meant by interefering with the family. The Word of Wisdom does state that we are not to run faster than we can walk. I take that to mean that we are not to drive ourselves into the ground trying to gain a foothold. It is not that I am against someone giving me good council, it is the manner in which it is given and how it is communicated. No, I did not bring up the issue with Gas because I really did not feel comfortable with the way the whole meeting went about. It was not like all the other previous meetings we have had with other Bishops. Regarding the Re-ordination, yes I was once ordained as a Melchesidek priesthood holder, however, it never got recorded (my grandfather had performed the ordination). Because it was not recorded, my church records show that I currently hold the office of a Priest and not the higher. So, yes, I would have to either have 2 witnesses write a statement and sign in front of their bishop (or a member of the bishopric) or be reordained. I have made several attempts to speak with my grandmother who has the information but because of her ill health and my grandfather's ill health, I have requested my mother and sister to assist me in locating this information and have gotten nothing but resistance on their part. As for the Job part, I was making $17.56 per hour working 40 hours a week. I am now working 32 hours and making 10.25 per hour. I also work 10 pm until 7am. If I were to take up a second Job, I would not get any sleep, and one has to take in consideration that we would have to pay for someone to watch Megan. Since we would have to pay for Childcare, then it is an additional expense (which is about 1000.00 per month for day care expenses) and my taking up a second part time job would essentially be right where we are at financially if I do not take up a part time job. I have looked at our budget, we are looking at what we are able to do. We have cut out alot of unnecessary expenses and are still seeking ways to bring in additional income. Where it stands, I am not going to find another job that will pay almost 18 an hour here in Washington state. I have looked.

Being counciled to not let anything interfere with the Family and then being counciled to take up a second job and sacrifice time with my family as well as my health and well-being. Being asked to do something that is outside of our budget and yet being told that we need to redo our budget so that we are not in the red, but the black. Having someone speak down to me in a very condescending tone and then tell me that they are concerned for me and that they understand when they have not made any verbal or non-verbal communication toward showing any form of understanding.

Today, my wife and I had an appointment with the Bishop. She was not feeling good so I had to go to it alone. The meeting was with the Bishop and the EQ President. The reasoning? We had asked for food assistance. The premise, to go over our budget we had to do up and now discuss. First, I understand that when one receives assistance from the Church, one has to perform some sort of "community service". There is no problem there. Yet, here is the issue. As the Bishop discussed with me the finances and budget my wife and I had to quickly put together, his tone was very demanding and condescending. He kept insinuating that the Church does not help support a person's lifestyle, but helps them live. He then proceeded to advise me to go out and find a second job, or look for a better job than what I currently have at the moment (I recently started working at Walmart as a Front End Cashier). He then asked why my wife and I are in the financial distress that we are in. I informed the Bishop that I had worked at a job for a year and a half. We started getting caught up on my bills, discussed how to start chopping down my child support, and even negotiated payment for my defaulted student loan. She went to school to become a Dental Assistant, and we were doing fairly well. We started going back to Church, started paying an honest tithing, and life seemed good. That changed when I was initially laid off from work and spent three months trying to find work, was denied unemployment due to a false allegation of UIB fraud. With her working and bringing in the money, me trying to find work, we had to cut alot of our expenses. We further fell behind in debt when my wife ended up having to take maternity leave because of her expecting our daughter. She contacted and worked with her credit card companies to inform them that she was going on maternity leave. They assured her that she would not have to worry about anything, especially since I was unemployed as well. Megan was born, and I spent my time juggling job searching, schooling, and the care of my wife while she was recovering from her C-Section and my daughter. I had started receiving unemployment benefits at that time, but half of it automatically went to pay child support. When she started going back to work, we started getting calls from collection agencies that stated we had fallen behind in her credit card payments and that we needed to pay more than what the minimum balance is. Bringing this back to today's meeting with the Bishop, he stated that our finances are our responsibility (I agree, no disputing there). He then stated emphatically that my wife and I would not be able to go to the Temple to be sealed until my back child support is caught up. He then stated that one of the ways I could do that is take up a second job and put one paycheck from one job toward getting caught up on my child support. He then stated that if I wanted to be re-ordained as a Melchesizedek priesthood holder, I have to be in good standing with the Church and be current in all my financial obligations. I was biting my tongue wishing my wife were there because I really wanted to go off and say something to the Bishop. However, I kept my cool, was very polite, explained our situation, explained that we were doing good but now are struggling. We have hardly ever asked for the Church to help us out unless we necessarily needed to, and it was only one time for rental assistance, and a handful of times for food orders so that we could use up what we currently have. On all of this he demanded that I and my wife go and work 20 hours within the next week at the local DI (We are in Marysville, and the DI is about 45 miles south of us). We are struggling just to make sure we have gas in the car for transportation to and from work. How are we to accomplish this when we can't afford a baby sitter for our daughter? He also demanded that we give up the cable and internet since it is not a necessity. I do my schooling online and job searching online. At the mention of this, he suggested I could go to the library and worksource. I agreed, and then countered about how would we afford paying for someone to watch Megan? He said that was our responsibility. It was here that I turned around and said to the Bishop that if we were to cut out the cable and tv, the money we would spend on those two things, we would have to pay for a babysitter (inevitably which will be a week and not a month, tripling the amount we would spend on these two things). He suggested we get rid of our cell phones and stick with the house phone. I left utterly discouraged and frustrated. When I came home and talked with my wife about it, she got livid. She is frustrated as I am and we are at the point that we are completely done with the Church. We understand there are certain things, but to be told that we have to push ourselves beyond unreasonable expectations is appalling. There was no attempt by the Bishop at empathizing with our current predictament - just a simple if you want this then this is what you have got to do and there is no negotiating it. Do up another budget and let us discuss your plan at the next meeting. I have left the Church once before, and am ready to leave again, and my wife is having the same sentiments - why bother trying when they do not understand exactly the predictiment we are in. Namely, what are we to do when we are doing everything we can at the moment?

While it is not LDS Approved, there is a Christian Ministry here in the Seattle, Washington Area. They come on AM 820 and they sponsor what they call "every man's battle" seminar's and programs. The main focus is dealing with Pornography that has entered into the marital relationship. What you posted here is exactly what they talk about on that show. Now, before anyone chastises me for mentioning this (even after letters were read about self=help groups), one has to understand that this program is an indepth program that has helped many Christian men and women who have realized that pornography has invaded their marriage. Steve Arterburn is one of the principle founders of the radio program called New Life Live (Christian call in talk show on AM 820 KGNW). Two things that is always mentioned when a man calls in regarding his addiction to porn, or a wife calls in regarding her husband's addiction to porn. 1) A woman who comes to the realization that her husband is addicted to porn becomes "turned off" in disgust about what her husband is doing. She can't trust him, is not able to open up to him, communicate with him effectively. She does not want to share with him an any activities because it is a constant reminder to her of what he has done to her. In her eyes, she sees her husband as someone who has betrayed her emotionally, spiritually, and intimately. Instead of turning to her for intimate affection, he turned to fantasies of other women (and even sometimes men as well). It is a very real and powerful addiction - more addictive and destructive than alcoholism. Because of this "Desensitizing" of a woman toward her husband, she can't even take simple pleasures in even spending innocent quality time with her husband. Translation, it is not that she does not want to do anything with you, it is because she is very hurt, fragile, and sees you as a disgusting pervert. 2) Men who are addicted to porn, and actually overcome it become desensitized towards any type of sexual relationship. They go from having sexual fantasies of various forms, sometimes may even get their spouse to fulfill some portion of their sexual fantasies, and having a high caliber sex drive to not having anything to do with sexual intimacy at all. Meaning, they view sex as a disgusting thing that will bring them right back into the grips of pornography. These two issues are very real that you and your wife are facing. This is something that is going to have to take serious amount of time, serious marital counseling, prayer, scripture reading, and a literal change of behavior toward sexual intimacy.