popatr

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  1. I agree, none of us is fully fit for the kingdom we eventually inherit, on our own. No matter which kingdom we inherit, the atonement of Christ has unlocked it. The scriptures make clear that without the atonement we would ALL be in outer darkness. The atonement, in addition to unlocking the way, allows us to avoid the suffering which accompanies our sins, "if they would repent ... but if not they must suffer even as [christ]" One thing about the Telestial people is their apparent extreme reluctance to accept the atonement and to accept christ. DC76:82 "These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus... [but] .... deny not the Holy Spirit." The doctrine and covenants commentary on this verse states that this rejection of Christ is not only in this world, but in the spirit world also. Contrast this with the description of Terrestrial people: DC76:74 "Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it." In other words, their minds are not so darkened that a stubborn rejection of christ continues after life. I believe the telestial person, having been unwilling to accept the gift of Jesus which would have saved them from their suffering, suffers greatly until the final resurrection "even as [Jesus]". This suffering is somewhat redemptive. Not in the sense that the atonement is, but in the sense that it carried them to the place where they could finally accept the gift. (It is key to remember that no matter how important their suffering is in their eventual redemption, Christs atonement is the actual enabler. Without it they are damned) The terrestrial person and celestial person receives the gift gladly. Now I suppose that the Telestial person must eventually be willing to receive the gift. The person in outer darkness refuses to submit to any being or law but themselves, so much so that they crucify jesus afresh when given the chance to escape. The telestial person is almost as unwilling to submit to another being or law as the son of perdition... but not quite. In the end they do not crucify Jesus afresh but say: I accept (and they mean it because they really see that sin is not in their self interest) This is what I suppose. I feel the reluctance to submit myself to christ but to some extent I have done so. I feel like I live the gospel very much because I feel it is in my self-interest. I worry that I am not celestial. I guess we will see. I believe that the telestial person is actually in outer darkness during their suffering. They desperately want nothing to do with Christ, so much so that even after they are saved, they NEVER receive the presence of the son into their kingdom. I suppose they cannot bear it. They can bear the holy ghost, and ministrations from terrestrial beings, but not the presence of the son.
  2. My calling telestial people "lightless" was bothering you. Again I don't want to belabor whether they are actually lightless or not, at the time of their death. The ground that I'm more interested in defending is that: at the time of their death, I think they are not actually fit for the telestial kingdom. My belief is that their time suffering in hell is actually key to making them fit to live in the telestial kingdom. because as the commentary says, they learn that "crime does not pay". This statement seems compatible with my belief that telestial people can behave themselves in service of their own self-interest, if it has been wisened (or made long-sighted). I want to also recall another thing I said before: which is that I am convinced that God does not harm needlessly. I'm sure that time in hell is for their benefit. Nephi agrees. God does not do anything which is not for our benefit, (even if that thing is "casting into hell").
  3. Here's how the "Doctrine and Covenants commentary puts it: Their time in hell helps take them from a condition where they are not able to live in a kingdom of glory, to one where they have "learned" enough that they can do so. Or as I would say it, a state of "no light" to a state of "a little light". I don't want to belabor this point though, or feel too attached to it. I am satisfied that they are in hell, possibly even outer darkness indeed, until the Lord rescues them. That is the key point anyway.
  4. DC76 says what I've been saying, that telestial people reside in hell and are not delivered from the devil until the last resurrection. I'm not sure what you think my point is, or where the disagreement lies. Please expound.
  5. I am fine conceding that Spirit prison and outer darkness are not the same concept. Moving forward is a semantic game, which is kind of a pointless game. Still, here's another attempt to word it: telestial people get spirit prison plus outer darkness, while terrestrial people get spirit prison minus outer darkness. America and Death valley are not the same concept, yet someone could be in America and Death valley OR could be in America and the redwoods;. And though both people are in America, they are having very different experiences. Anyway, I think the scriptures support my conclusions, but if you have a scriptural rebuttal I am interested in hearing it. I think that telestial people really don't have any light. Remember I said before that they are not really living a telestial law at the time of their death. I said I believed that self-interest motivated them. Shortsighted self-interest is completely lightless. But self-interest taught long-sightedness or wisdom by time in hell, gains the faintest spark of light, like a dim star. So they get out of outer darkness.
  6. I too wish to moderate my reply. Your situation may be different than I first imagined. It may be right to stay with her, but only if she is willing to marry. Whether she wants kids is another question
  7. I think, of necessity (reconciling all known scriptures about the state of soul between death and resurrection), we must conclude that spirit prison is divided into better and worse spheres. I do not believe for one moment that terrestrial and celestial spirit spend any time in outer darkness. Indeed they cannot, since they have some light.
  8. Zero. Negative two, if you could. Your heart should be seeking for a relationship as God has defined it, rather than burning cycles elsewhere. Also, to put it bluntly, you are not young.
  9. I was trying to be tongue-in-cheek or ironic when using the word "wisdom" which is why I put it in quotes and put it in close proximity to foolishness. So-called wisdom. My belief, or lack of it, maybe stems from my computer science background. I would compare absolute foreknowledge to a disk image of the entire universe. Such a thing is entirely static and essentially lifeless. A being who embodies such a disk image is stateless. It is hard to say he even thinks, as we comprehend it. The state is the state and we are just part of the state. What we'll do already exists fully realized and written to the disk image. I don't want to believe in, what feels to me, like a lifeless stateless being. Such doctrine tastes bad to me, at least how I've been able to season it.
  10. Largely my own "wisdom". If it ends up being foolishness I hope God will forgive me.
  11. Telestial people aren't actually living the telestial law at the time of their death. Just a portion. What does it mean to be quickened by a "portion" of a kingdom? Well, I think it refers to what reliably motivates you. For me, outer darkness people are unwilling to behave themselves, or subvert their ego, for any reason. They will gladly self-destruct rather than be subject to God or any law. Telestial kingdom people are willing to control themselves in self interest. Terrestial people are good and honorable for it's own sake, but still want autonomy. Celestial people are willing to have their will swallowed up in God because they love him so much. The motivations of a telestial person are insufficient to make them behave until they are forced to painfully learn and study their own self interest in hell, for a sufficiently long time that their self-interest is fully educated and fully wisened (the ability to see their self interest a long way off, way down in the future. They realize that no matter how much they gain by some selfish interest now, it won't be worth it in the long run so their behavior optimizes their happiness through civility etc, even though their natural motivations do not strictly dictate these behaviors) These musing are largely my own. I don't think they are entirely without scriptural (and general authority) support, but I don't wish to push them off as gospel truth--nor do I wish to try to prove them by extensive exegesis, as I'm more willing to do with what I think is actual vital doctrine.
  12. No, I think spirit prison and "outer darkness" are EXACTLY the same for a telestial person. Alma 40:13-14 is in my scripture block above, and I think supports this well. It says that some reside in outer darkness until the time of their resurrection. It describes their torment as being horrible. DC76 from my scripture block says that some of them (most if we rely on lds thought in general) are delivered from the devil in the end. But a few unreedemable souls go back. DC76 says that only telestial people are cast into hell. So a terrestrial person, or a celestial person stuck waiting on ordinances, are NOT stuck in the same state as telestial people. Yes we still call their condition "spirit prison" but it is not the same.
  13. To the OP, We need to believe the scripture which says it's theoretically possible to be fearless. There is a relationship between love and fear. We've heard elsewhere that there is a relationship between faith and fear. So there must be some sort of relationship between faith and love. I wonder what it is? We need to also listen to this scripture: Taken with other scriptures I think that we can make a strong case that God really does want us to cast fear out of lives in general. Like all of God's commandments, we should feel generally empowered to succeed at this. But also like all of God's commandments, I guess we have to accept that we will fail to be perfect. So if you are worried or afraid, don't be too hard on yourself. But I do think that casting out your fear could be viewed as an act of repentance.
  14. While I take God's foreknowledge pretty seriously, I believe perfect/infinite foreknowledge is impossible, and is just one of those scriptural exaggerations (like endless punishment is a scriptural exaggeration "to be more express upon the mind")
  15. I had no idea which part of my assertion needed support in your view. So I just tried to support the whole thing