NeuroTypical

So, I'm trying to understand. What is our job, and how do we know when it's done?Are you saying that a righteous gospel-minded Saint will not make use of courts and never do anything that might result in someone being sent to prison? If you believe in courts and prisons, then how can you say justice or judgement does not belong in our hands?

My story is sort of a mirror-image of seminarysnoozer's story. Here, the perpetrator violated a young girl repeatedly over a series of months. The perp and his family are all LDS, the girl and her mother are not. The family chooses to stand with the perp, and against the girl and her mother. Even though he admitted doing it, everyone has basically written these two people out of their lives, which is a very sore blow to the girl and her mother. When a parole hearing comes, my wife and I are the only mormons in this girl's life that are standing on her side of the aisle. Everyone else thinks they're a bunch of boatrockers and should just shut up. I emphatically agree. Although I'd say 'person wronged' instead of 'accuser'. Not all people wronged end up publicly accusing the wrongdoer, but the damage you speak of can take place in their hearts as well.But yes, it's an important thing to keep in mind. When I head to these parole hearings, I meet with the victim's mother. To put it lightly, she does not 'have forgiveness as her overwhelming sentiment'. I watch her bear a very heavy burden of darkness and bitterness. She struggles enormously to raise her daughter with a positive outlook. Her struggle would be much easier if she could hand over the crushing burden of her anger and thirst for revenge to God - but she isn't letting that be an option. So they struggle, and we all cry together. Just wanted to ask if you saw anyone doing that on this thread. If it is, could you point it out?LM

I've heard this notion from more than one person who came out of, or works with the criminal element. I can't really bring myself to agree with them, but I have to give weight to their opinion.My local cops see it this way: It is not possible to get rid of criminals. The best solution our just society has, is for the cops and residents to work together and present a unified front to the criminals, so they go find a different area to prey upon. Living in a crime-free area basically means you live in an area where you are not worth their effort, and there are jucier pickings a few miles down the road or one town over or whatever. I've found it difficult to put it that simply. Because individuals still must still report crimes and testify and write letters to parole boards and whatnot, in order for 'society to deal with the criminal'. In order to help society deal with the criminal in my life, I've had to put it like this:"I can forgive and pray for this guy, and support the prosecutorial effort at the same time." It's a much harder statement, but one I believe to be in harmony with the gospel. LM

Yeesh - Gaddafi probably won't go as easily. There are reports that he's having the air force attack Lybian military targets.

I think that's a fair answer. I appreciate that you are not calling me unchristlike. "Resist not evil". It seems so comprehensive - like such a blanket statement. Makes folks want to think the jury is out - no need to take up arms, defend against bad guys, or even protest when being robbed. In fact, it looks like we're supposed to give bad guys more than they come for, right?Well, if that scripture existed in a vacuum, that would be one thing - but it doesn't. We have Alma 61:14: "Therefore, ... let us resist evil, and whatsoever evil we cannot resist with our words, yea, such as rebellions and dissensions, let us resist them with our swords". Christ says "resist not evil", righteous, God-fearing Pahoran exhorts Moroni to "resist evil". Things aren't as one-sided as one might think. Speaking directly to matters of law, we have D&C 134:11 "We believe that men should appeal to the civil law for redress of all wrongs and grievances, where personal abuse is inflicted or the right of property or character infringed, where such laws exist as will protect the same." It seems to be in direct opposition to verse 39 above, doesn't it? It seems to pretty well cover my specific situation. We have Christ in Luke, urging his apostles to arm themselves. Alma 43 and 48 talks about folks defending themselves from attack. We have many examples in our early church history of the church trying to get the government to enforce it's laws. Joseph Smith even appealed to the president of the United States for relief against the church's enemies. Christ saying "resist not evil" seems to be so clear on it's surface, taken alone, and ignoring the rest of the scriptural and doctrinal and historical base. But given the rest of the stuff that's there, can we really convince ourselves that Christ doesn't want us to ever resist evil in any form in any way? This part is easy. Nobody has sued me, nobody has tried to compel me to do anything, nobody has asked to borrow from me. The only people asking me for things, is the victim and victim's mother - asking for my help to keep the guy behind bars so the victim can have some sort of a normal life without being anxiety-ridden that this guy will pop out from around every corner. Very important verses. They go hand in hand with D&C 64:10: "I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men." In fact, I would say that these verses are of the highest importance for situations like mine. I would further say that court proceedings and parole hearings and whatnot can be highly emotional times, where we are sorely tested to abide by the commandments to love and forgive everyone - no matter who they are or what they've done to us. So - I submitted evidence to a parole board in order to keep someone behind bars for a longer time than he might be there if I kept my mouth shut. How do I make that fit with clear commandments to love and forgive? A relevent and excellent question. I have developed a pretty clear understanding of what love means and doesn't mean. And what forgiveness means and doesn't mean. In this particular case, love and forgiveness do not mean helping this person remove just consequences of their actions from them. This person had parents who fought for years to keep this guy's actions from having consequenses, and the actions got worse and worse until finally he committed this felony. It wasn't his first, but it was the first time someone went to the cops. Tell me - all this sheltering and protecting and enabling by his parents - would you call that love? Is that what forgiveness is supposed to look like? Turning a blind eye to his growing evil? Well anyway, yes, I have worked very hard to love and forgive this person. I struggle to bear no animosity towards him. I've prayed for him. I sincerely hope he uses this time in prison to get his mind right, so he can be a productive member of society when he gets out. But I remain aware the odds of that are not incredibly great. LM

Time.

Since we're all giving our two cents...In any given villiage, town, city, county, state, or nation - any governmental grouping of a few hundred or more people anywhere on planet earth - there will be a small segment of that group, made up of individuals willing to kill you for what you have, or for kicks, or to quiet the voices, or whatever. That small segment varies from place to place by a tenth of a percentage point or two, depending on various factors. But it's always there. We go to great lengths to convince ourselves this segment isn't there. We talk about how our laws takes care of the bad people, and we usually manage to overlook the fact that the law usually gets involved only after something horrible happens to someone. Just and good people must conceed the first blow to the violent criminal. But when citizens have the ability to fight back on even terms, it's not a sign the law has failed. It's a sign the laws are just. LM

What about the soldier who kills his enemy while they sleep because he has been trained to do so, and is under the direction/order of his superiors? If he doesn't relish in it, he's ok by your logic, right? I helped a guy get 5-life. I wish he'd repent. I worry greatly he'll get out and come after my family for revenge. His victim is still very much terrified of him getting out. For these reasons, I submitted additional evidence to his parole board to try to keep him behind bars longer than they would have otherwise kept him. Am I unchristlike in your eyes?

I don't like this question when LDS critics are wondering aloud if I'm not Christian. I don't like it when an LDS person is wondering aloud if everyone else isn't Christian. What does 'according to definitions' mean? Are you going to a particular website or dictionary for your definition? From where I'm standing, christians believe in the reality and divinity of Jesus Christ, and accept him as their savior. Also from where I'm standing, the accepting of Christ someone has done, is not something we fallible humans can measure in each other - only ourselves.

But Funky - WMD's were found in Iraq. It is an objective fact. Problem is, only one news organization reported it. I forget the year - I admit the possibility that it could have been after the survey you remember. I mean, it wasn't a lot of them. A dozen or two artillery shells containing something (mustard agent I think - I've misplaced the article). They were leftovers from when Saadam used them against his own people. But yeah - chemical weapons. More than half a centerfuge buried in someone's back yard. More than a trailer set up to mix weapons. More than the chemicals used in making weapons. But real, actual, touchable weapons themselves. The kind you load into an artillery piece and shoot at someone and they go 'aah my eyes someone just shot a wmd at me!' Real WMD, found in Iraq. Certainly not enough to justify going in the 2nd time, but then WMD was only part of the case made against going in the 2nd time. Anyway, I have a very vivid memory that goes a few years back than your very vivid memory. I remember the countdown to war. I remember a 'coalition of the willing'. I remember Saadam not complying. Oil for food scandal. Violating fly-over rules. Violating lots of agreements signed that ended the first war. I remember all that, but the vivid part was how all the liberals just brushed it all aside, grabbing on to the WMD issue. No other beef existed in their media and minds - only the wmd issue. They gambled we wouldn't find any, and they'd use that fact to crucify Pres. Bush. They gambled correctly.

My wife homeschools our kids and goes to college. She still manages to collect interesting stories, but the most melodramatic ones come from her interesting teen years.

A common misconception about courts, is that they find someone innocent. They do no such thing. They merely determine that there is not sufficient evidence to find someone guilty. So no, the fact that Joseph was found not guilty, does not mean he didn't pratice polygamy.

I'm the hubby of someone interesting. She once got between two armed gang members and talked them out of killing each other. She once told Marilyn Manson, at his own back stage party, that she didn't like his music. I work in an office and type on a keyboard.

Two interesting experiences I've had: 1- I inherited an old book published by the church in the early 1900's. On the subject of the claims made by those who thought Joseph Smith III should be the new prophet. It presented ten or fifteen of the restored church's claims, and gave what sounded like a well-reasoned and relevant reply to why it was hogwash. 2- I got to talk online to a member of the RLDS church who tried to convince me JS III was the real successor. I pulled out the book, and was utterly surprised to find this guy was making the exact same points that my book had addressed. So without knowing much about the issue, I was able to just type a few highlights of my church's response that left the guy totally without any response. LM

Looks like Deseret is either LDS or latin, and kolob is either LDS or german or french. Although there is that one instance of an 1824 usage of kolob as community leader from the Sinai. Interesting stuff.

Hi CP, I don't know what it's like to be you - but we have a few folks in our ward with similar issues. Severe chemical sensitivities. We have a 'chemical free room' which they say rarely works. We are also set up to broadcast whatever is said into the chapel microphone on AM radio, so these folks are able to hear sacrament and gospel doctrine class from their cars. We take the sacrament out to them. They are sometimes able to show up in a breathing mask and sit next to an open door, when the air is ok. The trick is to have the bishop and a few other key folks aware of your situation. I don't know if your ward is set up to broadcast across AM, but it might be. Definitely talk to your Bishop about it.

Hey NBFF - If you haven't read it yet, this is a great talk. Maybe print a few out and hand them to your 'home ward' bishop and SP, as you are telling them you're moving to the other ward?

Agreed. There's lots of good info at avow. But as I mentioned above, anyone looking for ideas on how to better prepare themselves against the coming rainy days that President Hinckley so aptly warned us about, without the subscription fee and apostate false prophecying, give the Got Lamp Oil forums a try.

churchsigngenerator.com - the reason the internet was invented.

Looking forward to it. Atlas Shrugged had a major impact in my 180 degree swing from liberal to conservative back in the '80's. I am still amazed at how often I find someone arguing that A is not A.

Well of course our prophets don't stop being fallible mortal people who can have incorrect opinions on things. Sounds like the folks you know, somehow were resting their tesimonies on the falsehood that our prophets are infallible, and that every word that issueth forth from their mouths are authored by God. Then they discovered that was a bunch of hogwash (which it is), and their 'testimonies' died. When folks figure our prophets are perfect and always right, they are 1- figuring stuff you can't find in scripture or doctrine, and are 2- heading for a rough learning curve. Access to divine inspiration doesn't make you never wrong. And seriously, dieublanc, 'teaching the philosophies of men mingled with scripture'? Are you honestly feeling forced into that statement, or are you just attempting to stir the pot? LM

I have a very basic opinion about the whole matter. Should I die and kneel before my Master, and there learn that the world is 5742 years old and evolution was wrong, I plan on wetting my savior's feet with my tears. Should I die and kneel before my Master, and there learn that the world is millions years old and evolution and dinosaurs and all that happened, I still plan on wetting my saviors feet with my tears. Is there a reason why I should do otherwise?

Thanks for clarifying, but you were saying just what I thought you were saying, and I'm thinking my reply really was spot on.Because I'm seeing it live in a real budget spreadsheet tracking such things at my work. No really: When developing a new product, we know we can have 4 US engineers do it in a month, or have 8 Asian engineers do it for 3 months, and 1 US engineer for a week to fix everything at the end. Yeah, the Asian folks make 20% of the US engineers, but factor all that other stuff in, an it's harder to gain lower production costs. No really: Today's "lower production cost" countries are getting 3X or 5X the raises the US gets. Again, when was the last time you heard of anyone outsourcing a call center or software development project to Japan? It's because Japan (lower production cost king of the '70's and '80's) now has salaries comprable to US counterparts. India, Singapore, Malaysia - every year that goes by, the lower production costs shrink. Are you sure my response is a non-sequitur?

You can find judgemental jerks in any religion - ours is no different. And you can also find folks who say dumb things out of ignorance. But for the most part, I think LDS folks know how about harsh realities and tough decisions. There are no shortage of divorced mormons. I've had more than one bishop who was divorced. You should be fine.

Whenever you can have a bloodless coup disguised as a voluntary release of power, I guess that's better than a bloody violent coup where lots of people die. We'll see if the military shares power with the civilian leadership. We'll see if they still allow the elections to go through like they promised. We'll see if they are elections, or "elections". We'll see if the military remains basically independent, or if it becomes a tool of the muslim brotherhood. We'll see if this isn't the precursor for "Ding Dong the Shaw is gone" redux. LM