Maverick

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  1. I think there's a big difference between what you are describing and a mothers who are also "career women" who work full-time as professionals out of ambition, the desire for a high standard of living, or both. The church currently teaches that it's completely fine to be a "career woman" and a mother at the same time, which is the exact opposite of what was previously taught.
  2. It's not just a mixed message these days, it's a different message altogether. The message used to be that mothers should stay home with the kids and not go to work, unless it was absolutely necessary. Now the message is that it's perfectly fine to be a career woman and a mother at the same time.
  3. This is a perfect example of what I’m talking about. Many people found it very confusing and difficult to accept from day one. I don’t think he would have to be in three places at the same time. Instead what we would see is a hierarchy of God’s who fulfill various different roles with different titles at different times. If Adam-God is true, then the person standing next to Jesus in the air during the first vision would have been Father Adam. Yes, it is true that the Adam and man are the same word in Hebrew in many instances. Hence Christ referring to himself as the Son of Man, which in Hebrew is Ben Adam, or son of Adam. Brigham Young was very clear that he was referring specifically to the singular individual known as Adam in the garden of Eden. He did also teach that there’s an Adam on each planet and that exalted men and women will become the Adam and Eve on their own planets. I would be interested to see the statements from these men claiming that Brigham was speaking about two Adams. Can you please share these with You’re welcome to PM me if you’re more comfortable with that.
  4. This is a perfect example of what I’m talking about. Many people found it very confusing and difficult to accept from day one. I don’t think he would have to be in three places at the same time. Instead what we would see is a hierarchy of God’s who fulfill various different roles with different titles at different times. If Adam-God is true, then the person standing next to Jesus in the air during the first vision would have been Father Adam. Yes, it is true that the Adam and man are the same word in Hebrew in many instances. Hence Christ referring to himself as the Son of Man, which in Hebrew is Ben Adam, or son of Adam. Brigham Young was very clear that he was referring specifically to the singular individual known as Adam in the garden of Eden. He did also teach that there’s an Adam on each planet and that exalted men and women will become the Adam and Eve on their own planets. I would be interested to see the statements from these men claiming that Brigham was speaking about two Adams. Can you please share these with me. You’re welcome to PM me if you’re more comfortable with that.
  5. If true, why the style change? Under the current “style” how are we to know when something our leaders say has truly been given to them directly from God via revelation or when it is just their well reasoned opinion? Why would this prohibit the sharing of visions and revelations quoting the words of God directly? In the days of Joseph Smith, revelations were presented to the church and published as scripture without having the unanimous approval of the quorum of the 12 apostles. The quorum of the 12 didn’t even exist yet when most of the revelations in the D&C were published and accepted as scripture.
  6. You’re referring to Official Declaration 2. This is actually not a revelation in the sense I am referring to. There was no vision and there were no direct words of God quoted. There were rumors floating around at the time that a vision had happened or that there was a “thus saith” the Lord type revelation received, but the brethren who were present in the temple were all very clear that neither of these things happened. What happened was that the brethren had decided to give blacks the priesthood after a great deal of deliberation, then they prayed for confirmation, and received a strong feeling of confirmation that the time was right to end the priesthood ban. It really has been over 100 years since there’s been canonized revelation of the literal word of the Lord or a vision. The two Adam’s theory was suggested by Eldon Watson, but it’s not accurate. Brigham only ever referred to Adam or Father Adam as a single individual. He also clearly and repeatedly taught that this singular Adam, the first man upon this earth who was placed in the garden of Eden, is God the Father and the literal father of Jesus Christ in the flesh. I think it is actually very easy to understand. The problem is that it’s very hard to accept because it goes against the traditional understanding of who God is and who Adam is.
  7. I provided several statements by men in attendance when Brigham Young gave the speech recorded in JD 1:50-51, who confirm that the speech was recorded accurately. And no, it isn’t possible that all these men “misheard” what Brigham said on that occasion. As for additional Adam-God statements by Brigham Young and his contemporaries over the next 25+ years, many of these are easy to find online. Here are two links that document many of Brigham Young’s Adam-God statements: https://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Brigham_Young_Adam.pdf https://www.adamgod.com/ Yes, quite a few of his contemporaries repeated what Brigham Young taught regarding Adam-God. Some were apostles, others leading church authorities, and others lay members. There were several apostles who taught Adam-God in their own words or testified that the spirit had confirmed to them that it was true. Others accepted it as true because they sustained Brigham Young as the prophet of the church and believed that what he taught was the word of the Lord. See for example: Franklin D. Richards 12/10/1853 Millennial Star 15:803-04 Hear what the Prophet Daniel says upon this subject - [quotes Daniel 7:9, 10, 13, 14.] Again, the word of the Lord through the Prophet Joseph, gives additional importance, if possible, to the part which Adam acts relating to his children, which reads as follows - [quotes D& C 29:26.] From the foregoing we are enabled to draw important conclusions, that before the coming of the Lord Jesus in the clouds of heaven, to take the reins of government upon the earth, Adam comes and gathers around him all that have ever held keys of power under him upon the earth, in any of the dispensations thereof to man; he calls forth the dead from their graves, at the sound of his trump; he brings them to judgment, and they render unto him an account of their several stewardships; the books are opened that a righteous judgment may be rendered by him who now sits upon his throne, not only as the Father, but the Judge, of men; and in that capacity thousands minister unto him. An august assemblage are now gathered in one grand council around the great Patriarch of all Patriarchs, consisting of his sons, who have been faithful in that which was committed to them; and all this preparatory to that great event, when the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven should be given to the Saints of the Most High. Daniel saw that the Saints possessed the kingdom, by virtue of which Adam was once more in possession of the dominion given unto him before the fall, which was over every living thing that moved upon the earth, which rendered him the universal Sovereign and Lord of all. At this important period, when Adam is reinstated with full power upon the earth, seated upon his throne, as Daniel saw him - a glorious and an immortal God, one like the Son of Man comes in the clouds of heaven (as oftimes represented by the Apostles), to the Ancient of days, and receives from him dominion, glory, and a kingdom; or in other words, Michael, having accomplished the work committed to him, pertaining to this world, delivers up an account of his stewardship over the same, to that character represented as Yahovah in the creation of the world, who reigns in unison with those upon the earth, until his work is fully accomplished - till the last great contest with the enemy, who has been released for a little season, is won; then he in turn delivers up the kingdom to the great Eloheim, that in the language of the Apostle, `God may be all in all.' This final surrender, we are to bear in mind, does not detract from the God-like power and dominion of our first Parent, nor of our Lord Jesus Christ. In the Patriarchal order of government, each and every ruler is independent in his sphere, his rule extending to those below, and not to those above him, in the same order. ... [W]e find that ... Michael has power to deliver men from the power of the Devil, which is death; that by the sound of his own trump - the trump of the archangel, the nations of the dead shall awake and come forth to judgment, and there render an account to the Ancient of Days seated upon his burning throne. Then shall the nations know that he is their Judge, their Lawgiver, and their God, and upon his decree hangs the destiny of the assembled dead. Yes, our Judge will be a kind and compassionate Father, by whom none can pass, but through whom all glory, dominion, and power, will be ascribed to the great ETERNAL. Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball 10/6/1854 Journal of Joseph L. Robinson, 102-03 President Brigham Young said thus, that Adam and Eve were the names of the first man and woman of every earth that was ever organized and that Adam and Eve were the natural father and mother of every spirit that comes to this planet, or that receives tabernacles on this planet, consequently we are brother and sisters, and that Adam was God, our Eternal Father. This as Brother Heber remarked, was letting the cat out of the bag, Heber C. Kimball 6/29/1856 JD 4:1 I have learned by experience that there is but one God that pertains to this people, and He is the God that pertains to this earth - the first man. That first man sent his own Son to redeem the world, to redeem his brethren; his life was taken, his blood shed, that our sins might be remitted. Heber C. Kimball 3/11/1857 Journal of Heber C. Kimball 20:17 The Lord told me that Jesus Christ was the son of Adam. Heber C. Kimball 4/30/1862 Heber C. Kimball, Memorandum The Lord told me that Adam was my father and that He was the God and father of all the inhabitants of this earth. George Q. Cannon 10/15/1870 Meeting of the School of the Prophets [George Q. Cannon] fully endorsed the doctrine that father Adam was our God and Father - or as He in many places is called, Michael the great prince - the Arch Angel, Ancient of Days, & c. It was not only wisdom, but perfectly consistent, that Adam & Eve should partake of the forbidden fruit and start the work of increase of their species. The above doctrine had been revealed to him, so that he knew it was true. Orson Hyde 1/25/1871 Jans Christian Anderson Weibye Daybooks, Daybook 1st, p. 131 I attended meeting, Orson Hyde preached to us, and he told us that what we heard before that Adam is our God, we had a splendid good meeting. At Manti, Jan 25th Orson Hyde preached to us here in Manti, that, Adam is our God for this planet (Earth). George Q. Cannon 6/23/1889 Journal of Abraham H. Cannon He (George Q.) believes that Jesus Christ is Jehovah, and that Adam is His Father and our God: that under certain unknown conditions the benefits of the Savior's atonement extend to our entire solar system. ... He asked me what I understood concerning Mary conceiving the Savior; and as I found no answer, he asked what was to prevent Father Adam from visiting and overshadowing the mother of Jesus. Then said I: "he must have been a resurrected Being." "Yes," said he, "and though Christ is said to have been the first fruits of them that slept, yet the Savior said he did nothing but what He had seen His Father do, for He had power to lay down His life and take it up again. Adam, though made of dust, was made, as President Young said, of the dust of another planet than this." I was very much instructed by the conversation and this days services. Lorenzo Snow and Franklin D. Richards 10/12/1897 Brigham Young Jr. diary At meeting of all the apostles except Grant and Merill, Pres. [Lorenzo] Snow led out on Adam being our father and God. How beautiful the thought - it brot [sic] God nearer to us. Bro Franklin [D. Richards] said it made him thrill through his whole body - it was new & it was inspiring. Wilford Woodruff 12/16/1897 Brigham Young, Jr. Journal Adam is our father and God and no use to discuss it with Josephites or any one else.
  8. Agreed. I’ll start one later today, unless someone else would like to start one sooner.
  9. How do you know that we don’t have a complete record of the discourse in question? And what about the dozens of similar statements by Brigham Young and others over the next 25+ years?
  10. I believe that this very unlikely. Multiple witnesses heard it the same way it was published. And Brigham Young and his contemporaries made similar Adam-God statements many times over the next 25 years and beyond.
  11. You can read pretty much any of Brigham Young’s talks and you’ll see that he switches topics frequently within his talks. As for the particular discourse in question, this is what several men who were in attendance recorded: Journal of Wilford Woodruff Our Father begot all the spirits that were before any tabernacle was made. When our Father came into the Garden He came with his Celestial body & brought one of his wives with him and ate of the fruit of the Garden until He could beget a Tabernacle. And Adam is Michael God and all the God that we have anything to do with. They ate of this fruit & formed the first Tabernacle that was formed. And when the Virgin Mary was begotten with child it was by the Father and in no other way only as we were begotten. I will tell you the truth as it is in God. The world don't know that Jesus Christ our Elder Brother was begotten by our Father in Heaven. Handle it as you please, it will either seal the damnation or salvation of man. He was begotten by the Father & not by the Holy Ghost. (More to this quote) Journal of Hosea Stout 2:435 Another meeting this evening. President B. Young taught that Adam was the father of Jesus and the only God to us. That he came to this world in a resurrected body, etc. Friday 4/9/1852 Lorenzo Brown Journal Meeting at 9 A.M. All male members met at 6 P.M. House full. President Young preached some new doctrine respecting Adam etc. Excellent discourse I thought. Friday 4/16/1852 Journal of Samuel Holister Rogers 1:179 Conference commenced on the 6 and continued until the 11, it was held in the new tabernacle, adjourned until the 6 of next October We had the best Conference that I ever attended during the time of the Conference President Brigham Young said that our spirits ware begotten before that Adam came to the Earth and that Adam helped to make the Earth, that he had a Celestial body when he came to the Earth and that he brought his wife or one of his wives with him, and that Eave was also a Celestial being, that they eat of the fruit of the ground until they begat children from the Earth, he said that Adam was the only God that we would have, and that Christ was not begotten of the Holy Ghost, but of the Father Adam, that Christ, was our elder brother.
  12. I don’t believe that the general church membership had demonstrated the ability to discern truth from error beyond recognizing the truthfulness of the restored gospel in general. Speaking of these same people, Joseph Smith had said: “[T]here has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen.” (Jan. 20, 1844.) DHC 6:183-185. Many church members received the Adam-God teaching with gladness and considered it to be light and truth revealed from heaven. This included apostles like Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow, and Franklin D. Richards. Others had difficulty accepting it as it went against their traditions.
  13. Brigham Young admitted that he may have been guilty of saying too much about who God is, as the Saints weren’t ready for it. I see the wisdom in this as well. And I think this is exactly what we’re seeing. It’s nice that the church is more tolerant of this now, as long as you don’t try to publicly teach controversial things like Adam-God as official church doctrine or try to disparage current church leaders for not openly teaching the mysteries anymore.