Traveler

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Posts posted by Traveler

  1. 7 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:


    The easiest solution is the one they will not choose.

    The easiest solution is to raise taxes on Social Security, and a simple method is to make it so there is no limit on how much you make that can be taxed.  If you make 2 million in a year, it is taxed for Social Security.  At the same time, do NOT increase the limits on how much one can withdraw.

    This action right here would probably extend SS for awhile longer.

    Secondary would be to simply raise the retirement age.  Raise it to 70 or higher.  That also would extend it.

    Now, I note that I am waaay past the SS age already, so many would probably be saying...okay Boomer.  You got your cake and now you want to keep everyone else from getting theirs...or something like that.

    I admit I've been blessed in this regard, but if I live as long as I plan (I plan to go over 100!! no idea if I'll ever make it though), I'll be facing those shortages right along with others who haven't started their SS yet.

    I think the most likely thing that will happen is that the politicians will continue to kick the can down the road until we are about a week from it going away.  Then they will all scramble (like they do with the Budget recently) only to discover this problem isn't as easy to fix...and that will be it.

    I only hope I have enough money in my retirement accounts that I can get by if that ever happens (though with my luck, all stocks will fail, the banks will go bankrupt, and all the rest of my money will be gone as well, at which point I can only hope the Lord has appeared and we are living in millennial bliss by that point)(.

    Greetings @JohnsonJones:

    Back in the 80’s an international acclaimed economists (Milton Friedman) did an audit of the Social Security for then President Ragan.  His audit was somewhat unpopular – especially for the Democrats but it did upset Republicans as well.  Two of the biggest problems with the Social Security Department was the expanded use of the funds (for example the funding of Black Military Ops) and the exorbitant overhead costs (10 time the allowable overhead costs – by law – for privately funded retirement funds).

    According to Friedman, there has never been a shortage of funds, rather poor management (including unfunded changes).  As near as I can tell - none of Milton's recomendations have been adopted.

     

    The Traveler

  2. 20 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

    Biggest differences in the degrees of glory revealed to us, that I read, is in the Celestial Kingdom we will all be part of eternal families, in likeness of families formed here in this mortal life.  A father, mother and children.  In the other two glories there are no eternal families like this.  In my opinion, the lower degrees of glory will have congregations of people that have recreation and work together to accomplish goals.

    I think individual friendships will also exist in the lower glories, but there will be no marriages.

    Greetings @Still_Small_Voice:

    I would add to your thoughtful post a few thoughts of my own.  I have speculated and rationalized that there will be marriages (perhaps of differing varieties) in other glories – perhaps even in what is referred to in our LDS doctrine as outer darkness.  However, only in the Celestial Glory will the covenant of marriage be eternal and possess the covenant (New and everlasting Covenant) and power of creating new life – especially children in the image and likeness of g-ds.  My reference in scripture for this is Doctrine and Covenants 132.

    It does appear to me that all things in this physical universe is subject to the phisics and laws of dimensions of space time in which it exists.  As such all things do not and cannot endure everlasting eternity and of necessity can only be sustained through the merciful power and compassion of Celestial beings.  Whatever personal bonds are made outside of the Celestial law are not trustworthy or capable to endure eternally.

    Because our universe is organized and ordered though the power and order of the Priesthood – it is my impression that all thrones, principalities, powers, things of names or whatsoever my be, must be sustained through powers and orders of celestial beings.  Those of other glories are subjects to celestial beings and thus are ministering angles to them – they have no power or powers only that which is allowed by celestial beings and their care.

    This would mean that the only free individuals of liberty are Celestial.  All others are damned – which means limited (bounded) in what they can do and achieve and as such are dependent on Celestial beings for their every breath.  This is why they are subject to them and cannot achieve any rank higher than ministering angles.   As a side note – I have encountered many religious individuals that have no desire whatsoever to be themselves free individuals of liberty – in other words desire no more than to be eternally damned to some state lesser than G-d’s and therefore they cannot one with G-d as Jesus prayed in Gethsemane.  (Which, by-the-way many of non LDS stripe claim makes the Latter-day Saints technically not disciples of Christ.)

     

    The Traveler

  3. For those that are wondering, there is not a penny left in the Social Security trust fund.  What is left in that trust fund is an IOU from the federal government.  Sadly, that IOU is not referenced nor considered when the national debt is calculated.   It is perhaps the happiest place for the federal government to borrow money because there is no interest paid on the money that is borrowed from Social Security.

    I am sure if you ask anyone in the Social Security Administration – they will tell you that Social Security is as secure as our borders.

     

    The Traveler

  4. My family is the holder of the best known copy of the Rules of the United Order.  For your fun and enjoyment I have printed out a copy (on my compurter not a photo copy) of the rules of the United Order.

    Quote

    RULES

    That should be observed by members of the

    UNITED ORDER

     

    RULE 1.  We will not take the name of the Deity in vain, nor speak lightly of His character or of sacred things.

    RULE 2.  We will pray with our families morning and evening, and also attend to secret Prayer.

    RULE 3.  We will observe and keep the Word of Wisdom according to the Spirit and meaning thereof.

    RULE 4.  We will treat our families with due kindness and affection, and set before them an example worthy of imitation; in our families and intercourse with all persons, we will refrain from being contentious or quarrelsome, and we will cease to speak of evil of each other, and will cultivate a spirit of charity towards all.  We consider it our duty to keep from acting selfishly or from covetous motives, and will seek the interest of each other and the salvation of all mankind.

    RULE 5. We will observe personal cleanliness, and preserve ourselves in all chastity by refraining from adultery, whoredom and lust.  We will also discountenance and refrain from all vulgar and obscene language or conduct.

    RULE 6.  We will observe the Sabbath day to keep it holy, in accordance with the revelations.

    RULE 7.  That which is not committed to our care we will not appropriate to our own use.

    RULE 8.  That which we borrow we will return according to promise, and that which we find we will not appropriate to our own use, but seek to return it to its proper owner.

    RULE 9.  We will, as soon as possible cancel all individual indebtedness and contracted prior to our uniting with the Order, and when once fully identified with said Order, will contract no debts contrary to the wishes of the Board of Directors.

    RULE 10.  We will patronize our brethren who are in the Order.

    RULE 11.  In our apparel and deportment we will not pattern after nor encourage foolish and extravagant fashions, and cease to import or buy from abroad any article which can be reasonably dispensed with, or which can be produced by combination of home labor.  We will foster and encourage the producing and manufacturing of all articles needful for our consumption as fast as our circumstances will permit.

    RULE 12.  We will be simple in our dress and manner of living, using proper economy and prudence in the management of all entrusted to our care.

    RULE 13.  We will combine our labor for mutual benefit, sustain with our faith, prayers and works, those whom we have elected to take the management of the different departments of the Order, and be subject to them in their official capacity, refraining from a spirit of fault-finding.

    RULE 14.  We will honestly and diligently labor, and devote ourselves and all we have to the Order and the building up of the Kingdom of God.

     

    Printed at the Desert News Bleam Printing Establishment, Salt Lake City.

     

    The Traveler

  5. 3 hours ago, laronius said:

    So assuming the glory we inherit is relative to our faithfulness, will there be no one whose faithfulness is greater than the moon and yet less than the sun? This is what I'm trying to get at. It seems like there would be people all along the spectrum of faithfulness and yet the imagery suggests there are some pretty significant gaps in that spectrum. Perhaps that thinking is wrong and I'm totally open to other interpretations. But if it's not wrong, what is the cause for those gaps in faithfulness?

    I believe in agency.  I do not believe in almost anything or just short of anything else.  Let me put this another way.  We are what we have spent billions of years becoming.  This mortal experience is just a part of what is called the plan of salvation.  There was a pre-existence and there will be a spirit experience after we die and before we are resurrected that will complete our probation.

    The first step to freedom begins with discipline.  The first step into bondage begins with self-indulgence.   We become free or bound through the steps we take.  If one is in St George Utah, they can follow I-15 in one of two directions.  One direction will take them towards Las Vagas the other direction will take them to Salt Lake City.  With each step one takes, the gap between the two destinations does not change but the gap between where you are and the destination you are headed is what changes.  

    We are told in scriptures that we can follow one of three paths.  One leads to the telestial glory, one leads to the terrestrial glory and one leads to the celestial glory.  The choice is yours – you determine by your agency the path you take.  There is a passage in the Book of Mormon that implies that according to your choice the atonement of Christ will complete what you are unable to accomplish on your own.

     

    The Traveler

  6. 22 hours ago, Ironhold said:

     

    But yeah, I've spent 6 years tinkering with the script for a one-off indie comic. .......

    Just for fun – a long time ago, when the wife and I were still raising our children, I kept a notebook of stupid things I said.  All with the idea of perhaps someday publishing a book of humor.   Some examples: 

    “Your mother is coming over today?  Does she need to borrow your broom?”

    “Your sister is on another diet?  Did she break her Richter scale?”

    The husband comes home from work and the wife is in the kitchen fixing hamburgers for dinner.  

        Husband: “Why are the hamburgers so big?”

        Wife: “Because I got big buns.”

         Warning!!!! Whatever cute and fun thing you are thinking of saying could be damaging to your health.

     

    The Traveler

  7. 11 minutes ago, mikbone said:

    Me and all my colleagues request that this nonsense stop.

    Past the age of 60 you are better off taking up this sporty ride.

    IMG_0381.jpeg.1ce8eee65d5ac476f847bd4d6d429d24.jpeg

     

    I believe the point is - if someone is going to take up a potentially dangerous physical activity – they should not wait until their physical capabilities are in serious decline.  I have been involved in human powered cycling and skiing for over 60 years.  I realize that there are some not so rigorous cycling trails as well as blue and green ski trails.  However, if one’s goals involve 2,000 feet climbs cycling and double black diamond runs through the trees as a means to recover from knee and hip replacements – they may think about a second opinion.

    On another note – if you are going to ski through trees make sure you are capable of keeping both skis on the same side of all the trees.  Otherwise, you could not just have a bad day for yourself, but you can make it a bummer for everybody that is with you and cares about you.  😬  Just ask Sunny Bono and friends.

     

    The Traveler

  8. There was a complaint a while back that posting on the forum (primarily in the General discussion thread) is dying.  I had what I believe to be a fun idea in posting some worthless trivia – thus this thread.  So here is some trivia about motorcycles.

    I have a brother that loves to ride his Harley but recently sold it and does not plan to purchase another – he is done riding.  I asked him why.  The reason for him is that riding requires too much concentration.  For example, driving a car down a road at 60 mph and encountering a tennis shoe is not much more than an annoying thud.  Not really a problem.  On a motorcycle, hitting a tennis shoe can ruin your whole day – especially on a turn.   Riding with a group is kind of a thing but on a two-lane winding country road – trying to get a group of motorcycles past a semi is no longer fun for him.

    Because riding a motorcycle requires much more concentration – rides over an hour has become too tiring for my brother, taking the fun out of trips.  This brings me to another trivia point I read a couple of decades ago.  It is that if someone past the age of 60 decides to purchase their first motorcycle to fulfill some dream – they have a 70% chance of dying on that motorcycle.  I have concluded this is part of the concentration thing and that as we get older remaining focused does not work so well.  I guess that if someone does not want to waist away in a hospital bed as an end of life scenario – taking up motorcycling in your retirement, may not be a bad idea.

    I learned about the high-rise handlebars – the term for those handlebars are “ape hangers”.   We can speculate how cycle riders came up with that.  In the state of Utah (and several other states) it is illegal to have ape hangers that require one’s hands to be higher than their arm pits.  This is not because someone wants to give certain kinds of riders a bad time.  It is because holding one’s hands (or hand) above their heart for prolonged periods of time will cause their hand to go to sleep.  This little fact of life causes me to wonder why such a law would be required in the first place????  This should be a matter of evolution that would quickly remove certain mentalities from the gene pool.

    Anyway – If someone wants to chime in – please do.  If you have any point of trivia to add to this thread – for fun or pet peeve – have at it.  For fun if nothing else.

     

    The Traveler

  9. 9 hours ago, Ironhold said:

    Contrary to what a lot of "progressive" individuals wish to believe, a lot of people who identify as "conservative" do so because they believe that old and new need to be tested against each other in order to determine the best way forward, and that rejecting one or the other wholesale will only lead to misery. 

    To put it bluntly, a lot of the problems we're seeing in society these days are a result of people rejecting the old norms, traditions, and standards wholesale, only to discover the hard way why things were done a certain way for so long. This includes the realization that rejecting older institutions without providing something that can replace what these institutions offered in the way of structure and guidance was a bad idea. 

    It's tragic that your own family is seeing this for itself.

    There are two great lessons that I attempted to highlight in my post.  The first lesson is quite obvious.  That is that making bad choices without thinking through the possible outcomes seems to inevitably result in regret.  The second lesson is much more difficult – both in realizing the lesson and figuring out how to reverse or correct it.   It is more difficult because it does not involve so much the initial act of the individual that makes the bad choice – it involves those closest to them that realizes that the choice is flawed.  Especially when we love and care about others it is difficult to sit back and do nothing when the bad choices are made – we rationalize what ever action we take to mitigate and solve the problem for those making the bad choices will somehow respond to our criticism favorably.   Then in addition it also makes it much more difficult for the person that made the bad choices to ever attempt any rectification because not only do they have to deal with the initial bad choices but also the bitterness involved in the exchanges of criticisms.   It is very hard to admit that the critic that cause so much pain is justified – especially if they went overboard in anger.

    How can we be “right” if we become an obstacle and not a helper in the repentance of those needing repentance the most.  Like the parable of the Prodigal Son.  The Prodigal must become overly humble before they will come to their senses and return.  That return would have been shattered if the prevailing attitude was the attitude of the brother that remained faithful.  This is the reason that the fated calf was killed of necessity for the returning prodigal and why the faithful son needed no such affirmation. 

     

    The Traveler

  10. On 3/17/2024 at 3:33 PM, Deseretdog said:

    Thank you all. I'm hoping to get a little theological insight and exposure to some different views. So far everything that I have researched resonates with me much more than other denominations but my more importantly, my most powerful experience with feeling the spirit came when I was listening to a sermon? at General conference I believe by president? Nelson.

    A note – I am a retired engineer and scientist in the field of automation, robotics and artificial intelligence.  Most everything I have studied concerning the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints resonates with me as well.  There are some things that initially seemed out of place or not quite right but over time have proven to be exactly spot on and prophetic.   The strongest piece of evidence for me has been the Book of Mormon.  If I were to highlight any possible contrary element it would be a few members that have overrated themselves.  But even considering such members and compared to any other organization – there is no other institution on earth I personally trust more.  Even the most enlightened and intelligent institution in the universe (heaven) produced an abundance of (though very intelligent individuals) that way overrated themselves as well.   Pride is such an enemy and hindrance to peace and unity of society.

     

    The Traveler

  11. I have a daughter that left the Church because she has concluded that women are 2nd class citizens within the society of Latter-day Saints.  For a number of years this controversy caused divisions (sometimes angry exchanges) within our family and particularly between myself and my daughter.  Over the years I have come to the conclusion that angry exchanges are harmful to both myself and my daughter so for a while I avoided such topics.  Currently, I am able to discuss things without becoming angry or responding to her anger and things have gotten much better --- but there is another side to all this.  Her 4 children (my grandchildren) have continually drifted and have become quite confused over morals.  For a while the grandkids would attend church with us when we visited, or they visited us.  It has been a long time since they have chosen not to go with us to church.

    It was decided by my daughter and her husband that kids should figure out their own moral directions and religious connections.  This has been most difficult for the kids and as they are reaching adulthood in this confusing world they have not done well.  Two of the children have become lost and developed addictions.   The addictions have resulted in severe mental illness issues to the point that it is doubtful that they will ever be able to ever live on their own without some assistance.   Sadly, daughter is coming to her senses and realizing that leaving the church and the moral mooring living standards bring – is the primary factor in her children succumbing to damaging temptations – just not enough yet to return to protections of living by covenant.

     It is important that each person develop their own faith in G-d but if a person determines to become an agent unto themselves – it is not just their lives that are affected.  It is not uncommon for innocent children (or others) to suffer consequences sometimes for many generations.  With such damage I marvel that the atonement of Christ is able to unravel whatever damage we can do to ourselves and others.

     

    The Traveler

  12. On 3/16/2024 at 6:53 PM, Sail said:

    As we journey through the rich tapestry of biblical narratives, the books of Joshua and Judges offer profound lessons on leadership, faith, courage, and the complexities of human nature. This journey, spanning the conquest of Canaan to the cyclical rise and fall of Israel's fidelity to God, encapsulates themes that resonate deeply with our contemporary quest for meaning and purpose.

    Leadership Rooted in Faith: The Legacy of Joshua

    Joshua's ascent to leadership after Moses presents a compelling study of courage rooted in unwavering faith. In Joshua 1:9, we are reminded, "Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go." This divine assurance highlights a central theme in Joshua's leadership: the imperative of trusting in God's presence and promises, even in the face of formidable challenges. As Joshua led Israel to cross the Jordan and conquer Jericho, his actions underscored the power of faith to transform obstacles into stepping stones toward fulfilling God's promises.

    This narrative invites reflection on our own lives. How often do we face our 'Jordans' and 'Jerichos,' overwhelmed by their impossibility? Joshua's story teaches us that courage, anchored in faith, is not the absence of fear but the conviction to act in spite of it, trusting in God's guidance and provision.

    The Cycles of Judges: A Mirror to Our Flaws and Faith

    Transitioning from Joshua's unified conquest to the tumultuous period of the Judges, we encounter a stark portrayal of Israel's cyclical pattern of apostasy, oppression, repentance, and deliverance. Judges like Deborah, Gideon, and Samson emerge not just as leaders but as complex characters who navigate their flaws and faith in times of national crisis. Through their stories, we see how God uses imperfect individuals to accomplish His purposes, offering hope that our imperfections do not disqualify us from being instruments of His will.

    However, the Book of Judges also serves as a cautionary tale about the dangers of forgetting God in times of peace and prosperity. The Israelites' recurrent departure from God's commandments, leading to suffering and subjugation, reflects a timeless human tendency to drift from our foundational values and beliefs when not faced with immediate challenges.

    Application for Today: Lessons on Faith and Leadership

    The narratives of Joshua and Judges are far from ancient relics; they are vibrant, living texts that speak into our contemporary experiences. They challenge us to consider the quality of our faith and leadership. Are we, like Joshua, cultivating courage through our reliance on God, stepping into our calling with faith? Or do we find ourselves in the cyclical patterns depicted in Judges, oscillating between faithfulness and forgetfulness?

    As we reflect on these questions, these biblical books invite us to a deeper engagement with our faith journey. They encourage us to lead lives marked by courage, faithfulness, and a constant remembrance of God's presence and promises.

    In our personal 'battles' and 'judgeships,' let us draw inspiration from Joshua's courage and the resilience of the Judges, aiming for a faith that does not waver in the face of trials and a leadership that is always aligned with God's will. May we strive to break the cycles of forgetfulness by anchoring our lives in the steadfast love and faithfulness of God, remembering that, like Israel, we are called to a covenant relationship with Him, marked by obedience, trust, and unwavering faith.

    As we navigate our contemporary landscape with its unique challenges and opportunities, the timeless lessons from Joshua and Judges remain a beacon of hope and guidance, reminding us of the transformative power of faith and the importance of leadership rooted in divine trust.

    Thank you for your post.  Some thoughts about the person Joshua.  This is the same name by which Jesus was known.  Jesus being the Greek translation of Joshua.  Shortly after Joshua succeeded following Moses, he took the “children of Israel” down to the river Jordan and washed them before crossing the Jordan river over into Palestine.  The nature of the Jordan river as it approaches the Dead Sea is what we call a meandering river – which means that as the river erodes the landscape its course can change slightly.  It is interesting to note that when Jesus came to the river Jordan to be baptized (washed?) of John it was at the same place that Joshua washed Israel and crossed that river on dry ground.

    I appreciate your notion that the ancient epochs of faith are prophetic in nature to have relevance for what is to come (even in our day and time).  The Hebrew word “Kippur” had no English equivalent so when Tyndale attempted to translate the first English Bible, he coined the word “Atonement”.  Because he portended to make up a sacred word is one of the primary reasons he was burned at the stake for heresy.   The word “Kippur” has two distinct parts to its meaning and purpose.  The first is a redemption that is paid by G-d for sins.  It is my understanding that this redemption does not supersede the responsibility of the individual for their crimes of sin except to pay for that which the individual is unable.  The second part is purification to change or remove that which is dross so that whch remains is pure and without flaw.  This insinuates to me that the Atonement of Christ is not completed in us until we (complete repentance and) are pure (perfect).  In scripture this is often spoken of as complete or perfect – which can only be concluded through the completion of the first 4 principles of the Gospel of Christ. 

    I believe there is symbolism in Joshua leading Israel into the “Promise Land” that has great meaning for the Latter-day Saints preparing (themselves and Zion) for the Messiah and His Millennial Reign.

     

    The Traveler

  13. Over a decade ago I had to register for Social Security.  This was before such efforts could be completed online.  I live in Utah that is somewhat white.  Never-the-less, I was surprised that I seemed to be the only “white” person registering for Social Security.  In addition, I seemed to be the only individual of retirement age as well as the only individual that spoke English.   I did not think much about it at the time but since I have learned that if a person is disabled, they can receive Social Security funds even if they are not a senior citizen.  In fact, even if they are not citizens.  There are a few stipulations.  If they were lawfully admitted, granted conditional entry, paroled into the US, refugee, granted asylum, a Cuban or Haitian entrant or deportation is being withheld.

    Are the democrats (liberals – progressives) deliberately attempting to bankrupt Social Security?  Are the republicans doing anything to preserve Social Security?  With the southern border as open as it is, and refugee or asylum granted without any validation – I do not believe Social Security is sustainable.

     

    The Traveler

  14. 22 hours ago, mikbone said:

    Nephi’s nephew here gains a testimony, is forgiven of his sins, and learns of Jesus Christ.

    I think his question, “How is it done?” is genius.

    Here is my question:  Don’t you think that Enos’s father Jacob had given him all this information in detail previously?

    There comes a moment in our lives when we must leave the nest, fly on our own and feed ourselves.  

    I relate to Enos and his struggle.  Growing up in a righteous home well rooted in the gospel of Christ – I believed my parents, attended church, sought understanding and received conformations.  As I grew towards adulthood and became aware of this universe of uncertainty and my own inability to reconcile seeming contradictions, I began to wonder what it was I seemed to be missing.  Not so much doubts that what I believed was wrong – just that like the rich young man that came to Jesus – I wondered what it was that I was missing.

    I had spent time in the army during the Vietnam conflict and lost friends in that war.  I had also served a mission but felt that I had been sent home at the end of my allotted time leaving critical things undone.  There was a young lady that had waited faithfully for me to complete my mission, writing to me almost every week.  I went out with her once on a date and could not connect taking her home early.  I had a major conflict with a professor (that within a year was fired) and decided to drop out of college.  I felt that the girls I met and attempted to date were seriously spiritually flawed.

    I had a companion from my mission that was a native American.  I discussed with him my spiritual disconnect.  He knew me from our experiences together and knew I was raised hunting for part of the food I ate and convinced me to take time off and go on a spiritual quest similar to Enos, Moses and Christ.   I took a blanket, rope, knife, a coat, Book of Mormon and the clothes on my back and walked away from civilization into the desert of central Utah – living on the land as a 40 day fast.

    Just over 20 days into my experience I came across a fellow on a prison release program that had become lost and was in serious trouble.  He had not eaten for a few days and has blisters, bleeding and was unable to walk without assistance and was more than twice my size.  It took over two days to get him out and to safety and there was a time I did not think we would make it but were saved by a miracle.  I thought that my spiritual efforts had been ruined.  My personal Enos wilderness experience failed – or so I thought.  After a few more weeks I left my wilderness without the spiritual manifestation I expected.  I had a spiritual experience in my youth, somewhat similar to young Joseph Smith and believed that I could reconnect.  But it did not happen as I expected.  I came to realize that spiritual experience come through personalizing one’s covenants.  The meaning and purpose of spiritual experiences is to galvanize one’s covenants.

    As we keep our covenants through faith and dedication the spirit strengthens that faith and opens greater spiritual possibilities.  My time in the wilderness has become one of my greatest strengths leading me through life – reminding me of many things I was given during my quest and reminding me to remain faithful to covenants.  It is my understanding that Enos’s life was not fixed through his wilderness experience but rather he came to a understanding of how his purpose in life is fixed through divine covenant that he had already made but not completed.

     

    The Traveler

  15. 3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

    4 And they are aone God, yea, the very bEternal cFather of heaven and of earth.

    Does the use of the pronoun they in this verse add support to the idea that Jesus and His Father are, collectively, one God?

    We need to realize that the context of this scripture is deeply rooted in the Hebrew culture and language even though the text is written in Reformed Egyptian.   From the context of near Eastern culture, we learn that the preferred styles of government were patterned after their ancient understanding that the government of Heaven was properly called a “Kingdom”.  That the kingdom of Heaven was ruled by a supreme Suzerain.  From near Eastern kingdoms often had levels of citizenship.   Only the “First Born” (Meaning the most noble or highest rank of citizens fell under the direct relationship with the Suzerain.  As a side note here, these high citizens had a unique name by which they addressed the Suzerain that no one else was allowed to use.  There are many references in scripture about the first-born citizens.  One reference is referenced with the final miracle of Moses when obtaining the deliverance of the Israelites.

    Other classes of Citizens were under the jurisdiction of what was called the Servant Vassel.   According to the law of the kingdom the Servant Vassel was said to have inherited all that the Suzerain had in dealing with their Jurisdiction within the Kingdom.  As such they claimed to be one Suzerain or one with the Suzerain.  Often, they would speak to their jurisdiction in the first person as the Suzerain.  Under this law of a Kingdom, it was said that there was one Suzerain.  The Hebrew word to designate “one” is ehad.  This is the same Hebrew word that designates that a man and a woman become one flesh when married according to G-d’s law.  The Hebrew word that designates a unique single individual is yahed.  Whenever Hebrew scripture referenced the “oneness” of G-d the word ehad is always used.  There is no reference – ever – that Hebrew scripture uses the term yahed in referencing one G-d.

    When the fall of man (Adam and Eve) took place all of the covenant spirit children of the Father (Suzerain of Heaven) became fallen or exiled citizens of Heaven and therefore were under the jurisdiction of a Servant Vassel that was the Messiah or Christ that was anciently known as Jehovah and the man Jesus of Nazareth.

    When the Apostles chosen by Jesus to oversee the kingdom of G-d (church) on earth there were lost to the Church there was a shift in the stylized government of the church.  This shift patterned the church structure after the government of Rome.  To justify this gross alteration a counsel met and created the doctrine of the “Trinity” that was forced on “Christians” under penalty of death and it has remained ever since.  

    Perhaps the best witness in scripture of the proper concept of oneness is in the Gospel of John chapter 17 when Jesus prays in Gethsemane as part of his Atonement that those that believe on him (as the Servant Vassel to the Suzerain) would become one with the Father in the same manner that He is one with the Father.  Obviously meaning that those that believe in Christ will no longer be exiled but full citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven as Servant Vassals of the Father.  I would note that in John chapter 10 that when Jesus said he was one with the Father – the Jews clearly understood that Jesus was referring to himself as G-d and that is why they intended to put Jesus to death.  Many Christians claim that they are one with G-d in one breath but then in the next breath claim there is only one (yahed) G-d and that the Trinity doctrine is valid.  Obviously, they do not know what they are saying.

     

    The Traveler

  16. Since we are keen on speculation for this thread, I will offer some speculation based on research that I followed and speculated myself.  Among the Dead Sea Scrolls was a copper scroll that was also called the temple scroll.  We know that in the ancient world that records were kept on metal for special reasons.  There were also various levels upon which records were kept.  A special breed of sheep and goats were maintained for what was called the scriptorium scrolls.  The Isaiah scroll found with the Dead Sea Scriptures is one example of the higher quality scriptorium scrolls.

    One of the non-LDS scholars associated with the Dead Sea Scriptures speculated that the most important copies of the scriptures were kept at the temple.  Prior to 600 BC. the stone plates that contained the Ten Commandments was kept at the temple in the Holy of Holies and inside the Ark of the Covenant.    It is my personal speculation that the Brass Plates were kept in the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies of the Temple according to the law and covenant.  That the removal of the Brass Plates by Laban was a gross disobedience of that covenant. 

    That one of the primary purposes of the temple of ancient times was to maintain and keep sacred artifacts.  It is my speculation that the temple is intended to house the most sacred artifacts obtained through covenant with G-d.  Specifically in the Holy of Holies.    There these most sacred covenants artifacts are protected by divine covenant.  That if circumstance was required that G-d would inform his covenantal garden to remove such artifacts by divine calling – as according to Nephi concerning the Brass Plates. 

    So, my speculation is that certain artifacts (including the Golden Plates) are in possession of our Apostles.  That there are safe places to keep such artifacts in the Holy of Holies or if necessary, a special prepared vaults carved into granite stone mountain sides (known or secret).

    I find it most interesting to me that the L-rd has found the means in our own day and time to have many of the most sacred artifacts (including buildings – temple and otherwise) back into the control and protection of his covenant Saints.  Not only are these artifacts being returned they are being returned without the Saints demanding it so or by their forced efforts.  I do believe this to be a divine witness that the only true and living G-d is providing witness to the world concerning his only true and living covenant (authority church).  And also a witness to the Saints (with eyes to see and ears to hear) of the preparations for the returning of the Messiah.

     

    The Traveler

  17. 20 hours ago, Vort said:

    I've been waiting years for someone to write a Chick Tract of Jack Chick post-mortem.

     

    16 hours ago, LDSGator said:

    It would be well deserved. The man was evil. I grew up Catholic and when I first encountered one of his garbage tracts it scared me for months. Not being funny, it was genuinely disturbing.   

    I am by no means an artist, but my father was, and I was schooled in the arts.  There is a lot of the artist in their art.  In essence, all art at its core (meaning and purpose) is a self-portrait.

     

    The Traveler

  18. 17 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

    We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

    In my time over on the opposite side of the World my initial impression was somewhat different than yours.  Russia, though corrupt and having different ideas on morality had a pretty strong stance against LGBTQ+ rights and individuality.  Ukraine on the otherhand was moving further and further towards full agreement with Western morality.  THIS was seen as a great danger by  many in Russia and that sphere of the world.  It was through Ukraine that many felt this influence on Russia and Russian culture was moving.  The idea that Ukraine would get even closer to the West and thus the influence of Western Culture influences into Russia becoming stronger could actually be seen similarly to a Nazi  type infiltration of Russia aka WW2 (during which you could see a similar pattern, even to the point that at first Russia wasn't actually opposed to Germany and cooperated with the Nazi's...until it became apparent it was to Russia's detriment).  [Edit:  It wasn't a perfect analogy, but from the viewpoint of Russia I could actually see how they could see parallels and similarities.  Hence, when they used the term Nazi's, they weren't meaning the genocide of Jews Nazi's, but that cultural influence and destruction of Russian people and culture type Nazi ideas.  Thus, when you understand that viewpoint, why they referred to Ukraine as Nazi and such makes perfect sense...as in that sense it was the entire cultural and social transformation that was occurring in Ukraine and thus eliminating the Russian culture and ideas that they were referring to.  This is one of the big things to go to war against the Nazi's in WW2...it wasn't about the Jews, it was about the preservation of Russia and the Russian culture].

    However, for all of Carlson's faults...he did clarify one thing with Putin.  The idea above and your idea have NOTHING to do with WHY they want Ukraine.  It boils down that Putin (and others) feel that Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union and thus belongs to Russia...no matter what they citizens of Ukraine say, think, or feel.   Thus, as Putin so adeptly pointed out in his 30 minute spiel of why Ukraine is Russian Territory and belongs to Russia, it seems the truth is merely that Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin and others feel it is wrong for it to be separate from Russia and they want it back. 

     

    Thanks Tucker. 

    Thank you for responding.  I believe this is a most serious matter and needs a lot of discussion.  A few years ago, my wife and I spend some time in Saint Petersburg, Russia.  We had a guide that took us to several off the tourist grid places where we encountered a cross section of Russian citizens.  I was quite surprised to discover that Putin has more popularity and support in Russia than any President in the USA has had for decades among citizens here.   I realize this was hardly scientific but the feed back that I had was that the citizens enjoyed more freedoms and economic benefits than any of them ever realized in their lifetime.  Included in their freedoms was attending religious institutions of their choice and being able to walk (or jog – including young ladies) in public places (or ride public transportation) without fear of being molested or robed.   In general, it was my impression that Russians attribute their improved status (a significant rise in their middle class) to policies instituted by Putin.

    I am not a fan of Putin – especially politically or of his methods and I have no desire to live in Russia.  But the people there have it better than they ever have.

    According to my recent research – up until 2014 Russia either controlled Ukraine or relied on them (politically and economically) as a trusted ally.  Ukraine was an important economic and political partner to Russia.   At the time the President of Ukraine was a guy named Yanukovych that was most famous for corruption.  Under pressure from Russia, Yanukovych backed off from increasing trade with the EU.  As I stated earlier – and this can be verified by a Google search.  A movement started to remove Yanukovych from power because of his corruption.  The most violent element of the revolution was a Nazi movement (not my interpretation) that received monies from the USA and NATO.  My research indicates that Senator John McCain was involved in the legislation to obtain the monies to finance the Nazis and the Ukraine conflict.

    Our involvement (USA) can easily be justified as means to curtail Russian influence and end a very corrupt regime.  However, there is little indication that the rampant corruption of Ukraine was in any way hampered – but Ukraine as a nation made moves towards Western (EU and USA).  Prior to the Russian invasion there are rumors that Zelenskyy’s administration did not deal kindly with opposition (including certain religious groups). 

    It is my understanding that the mane means of Russian financing is through their petroleum industry and exports.  It appears to me that the current policy in the USA that governs the USA petroleum industry gives strong advantage economically to Russia (despite all other so-called sanctions).  Thus, it looks to me like the USA, either indirectly or directly is financing both side in the current Russia Ukraine conflict with increased petroleum costs.   

     

    The Traveler

  19. Having spent some time trying to talk with some liberal friends – I have concluded that it is unlikely that a contest between Trump and Biden will in anyway calm the troubled waters brewing politically in this country.  If anything, I believe it will boil over.  I doubt that we will reach November without open violence and an impossible political divide.  I do not think either party has the means or desire to deal with the opposition that is building.

    Though I believe the Democrats to be the more wicked of the two; I am also convinced that the Republicans are more the buffoons that are clueless and unprepared.   I wonder if the stupidity of the Republicans is somewhat by the design of their leadership.  At this point, I cannot say I trust any political process.  My hope is in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I had hope of the religious community of America coming together but since that community still cannot (as a whole) accepts us as Christians – I am very concerned for how much longer G-d will protect this government.  For now, I will support anyone or anything that can delay what seems to me to be inevitable.   I believe the Democrats will not only win but will win by much more than the Republicans (and other conservatives) can possibly imagine.  

     

    The Traveler

  20. 18 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

    I inherited a bunch of religious books from my grandpa.  One of them was published in the 1930's (I think), from the church's printing press in Beaver Utah, titled something like "The succession of Joseph II".  I briefly thumbed through it, it was basically an in-depth response to a bunch of claims made that Joseph's child should be Joseph's successor after his martyrdom.  I put it with the other 2-3 dozen books in a box in my basement.

    Years later, I was in Yahoo chat arguing religion with an RLDS person about who was right and who was wrong.  I ran and got the 70 year old book.  He proceeded to make a series of claims, pretty much verbatim to the claims refuted by my book, pretty much in the exact order my book was written.  I immediately was able to counter each point he made, clearly and convincingly, by citing various elements of our shared history.  Poor dude was forced to say something like "well, I don't know as much as I should about it, but I'm still sure you Brigahmites are the wrong ones."

    Imagine fighting a battle, over and over again, that was pretty conclusively lost 70 years ago.  

    Just a note.  With all the divisions within the Community of Christ it has been a surprise to me that few of those leaving have joined with us.  And then even the few – it seems to have been the next generation to find itself joining with us.  Perhaps it is the past bitterness.  The individual I met with seemed to have a defeated presents – I would think somewhat like Moroni experiencing the end of the Nephits.  I did feel that he was a good person expressing a sincere sorrow.  Typical to my problems with little compassion I did tell him he has a home with us.  His grace precedes mine with his thank you.

     

    The Traveler

  21. 22 hours ago, Vort said:

    I dislike certain tags that oversimplify and distort matters, such as the "Two-Cumorah Theory". Rather than state the matter as "there were two or perhaps more hills called Cumorah", which, though possible, sounds clearly like a stretch (or a tautology—"King Lear was not written by William Shakespeare, but by another playwright of the same name"), a better statement would be, "Perhaps the very name 'Hill Cumorah' simply means the hill chosen to house records." If we assume that records were always hidden somewhere on a hill so that (1) they would be marked by an easily recognizable landmark and (2) they would shed rainfall, it's easy to see that such a hill might become generally known as "Records Hill". Those concerned with record-keeping would quickly learn to look for the Records Hill in an area. If "Cumorah" denotes written records or a storage place for them, then this identification makes perfect sense.

    Of course, it's still an unsupported assertion, really just speculation. But it certainly has great explanatory value for those who believe the literal truth of the Book of Mormon and the narrative that it provides, and it doesn't immediately raise suspicion and mockery like "Two-Cumorah Theory" does.

    It is not uncommon to give familiar names to places.  I know of a few cities called Paris, London, Main, Portland and Bountiful just to name a few.  I have given up attempting to determine the land of the Book of Mormon – thought I have thought to have figured it out a few times, only to realize problems with the narrative within the Book of Mormon.  I have concluded that there are a number of places that Jesus most likely visited in the Americas – as well as several other places in this world.  I believe that there is sufficient evidence to convince me of visitations to many places other than the Americas (including in India, Persia and Northern Japan).   As a side note – does anyone know why Japan has a flag denoting the land of the rising sun?

     

    The Traveler

  22. 17 hours ago, mikbone said:

    https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/content/historic-sites/missouri/questions-and-answers-about-the-temple-lot-in-independence-missouri?lang=eng

    I bet we purchase some property in Independence Missouri next.  Likely within 5 years.

    And there we will build a Temple to the Lord.

    The Church is already the single largest owner of property in Missouri.  There are two temples in Missouri.  One in St Louis and one in Kansas City.  There are several temples (24 – mentioned in your link) that will be built in Independence.  My personal theory is that none of this will be built by the Latter-day Saints but will be either returned or constructed by the Saints of Enoch when they return as prophesied.  I speculate this will be at the same time that Melchizedek returns with his Saints to restore the temple to what is now Jerusalem. 

     

    The Traveler

  23. Just a little bit of history – as I have experienced.  In my college years I, with a few return missionary friends, embarked or a Church history vacation one summer.  Our encounter with our religious LDS neighbors was bitter and disappointing and left a very bad taste in my mouth.  In my youth, I blamed everything on who we called the Reorganites.   Over the years this bitter relationship has softened. 

    One of the doctrines that has sustained some bitterness has been our stand on the priesthood being exclusively for men.  The Community of Christ currently has women apostles.  There was some bitterness over blacks and the priesthood.  Not so much concerning the blacks and the priesthood but the Community of Christ suffered a great division over women and the priesthood.  They have never been solvent economically since that division. 

    The LDS Church has financed the Community of Christ to maintain our common interest in historical properties.  It was never sustainable – especially for the Community of Christ.

    A few years ago, my wife and I (with some local friends) again made a trip through Church History.  My personal encounter with the Community of Christ was like meeting with beloved long separated family members.  I spent a day with one of their general authorities (president of the 70’s).  I was privileged to go with him through their private vault of artifacts accumulated form the beginning and dating back to the time we were not separated.  With their new focus on “The Community of Christ”, he tearfully confessed to me that they did not have the resources to maintain the artifacts of history.  It was not just the finances but the human resources as well.  We openly discussed the possibility of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints carrying this baton to the finish line when the Messiah comes.

    The bitterness between our religious institutions seems to be the one factor no longer a concern.  I am grateful that our brethren in Christ have carried this burden so well and nobly for so long.  I am grateful that the properties will now be restored to what they need and ought to be – a treasure for the Saints to enjoy during the millennial reign.

     

    The Traveler