Traveler

I beg to differ - I do not believe dogs are loving, kind, gentle obedient, ect -- just like his/her Master. There my be some remote resemblance but this simply is not true or even close to truth. Please do not make up stuff that is not the truth and pass it off as truth - there are commandments concerning such things. I have a hard time even believeing you would even suggest such a thing. The Traveler

Please explain the difference. If I have something that in every way there is or can be like a car - we should call it a boat? Or a NOT car? The Traveler

Early on I stated my opinion that many of the common perceptions being advanced about hell are in conflict with my understanding of G-d the Father and G-d the Son (Jesus Christ). If someone is to make a list of why they worship G-d and love him on one hand and then make a list of why G-d condemns those that die in their sins to a “never ending” hell of anguish and torment – I challenge you to honestly find even a single common entry in both lists. I am convinced that those that believe the common perceptions of hell also think they are excluded. In all my life I have never talked with one person that believes they will be abandon by G-d in a never ending hell (this is odd because the general perception of the good folks is that most of the world is going to hell in a hand basket). Is there anyone that personally knows somebody well enough to pronounce them as a “no miss” candidate? Most common spoken of as the candidates for hell are those that deny or betray the Christ. It is interesting to me that on his last night before his great sacrifice, Jesus turned to his disciples and proclaimed one would betray him. Each asked in return “L-rd is it I?” They were not sure if they were candidates for never ending hell? Later that same night Jesus turned to one of his most ardent followers and said that before the morning came he would deny the Christ 3 times. Lucky for Peter he did not die shortly after his denial of Christ? The point I am trying to make is that if everyone that deserved hell were sent to hell – that is where everybody would end up. And at the same time, those of us that think there is no possibility that they will be there, proudly boast that only the truly deserving will end up in hell (as though they do not truly deserve hell – because???). Am I the only one that sees this irony? Can a sole be saved from hell? I have asked this question, I do not know how many times and gotten no real answer. Can a sole in hell that really wants deliverance be saved? The answer I get is the Rich Man and Lazarus. Interesting answer because, what was the Rich Man’s sin? – why did he deserve to be in hell? It was not that he did not go to church and it was not the he did not profess a belief in the true and living G-d (which everybody that thinks they do not deserve hell, also thinks their belief in G-d will get them out of it). Are we all is some way not like this Rich Man? Again – what irony? I am not here to convince anyone of anything – I believe you can believe what-ever you want. You may think that my opinion of hell makes it palatable. To be honest I do not think hell is such a bad place – compared to what we currently have. In fact, I am not sure that everybody will be able to tell a difference (Again – what irony?) I really believe that hell is not so bad, except what you have to give up to buy into hell. Perhaps I should state this a different way. It is what you have to give up to get out of hell. It is that you have to give up all your sins – forever to get out of hell. I think when most people are faced with that choice that there will be a couple of favorite sins they favor over G-d’s saving grace. Did I say that – I was speaking of myself as well my friends. I asked why G-d might not save a sole in hell – NO ANSWER. Is it because G-d does not have the power? Is it because G-d does not want to? The answer for me to the two questions is both “Yes and Yes” and “No and No”. No unclean can be with G-d. Not even a tiny little bitty unclean thing (that is what sin is – a unclean thing and sometimes it is just a little bitty unclean thing. How many times have I heard, “I do not think G-d will send me to hell for some little bitty sin”. Adam and Eve were cast out because they became unclean as we are all unclean and deserving of hell. The ticket out of hell? Two things: First is the atonement of Jesus Christ - that paid for the ticket (this part is all done with and paid for – for everybody). Second: Give up all your sins forever. If someone has another answer – I would sure like to hear it. The Traveler

Just a few notes: 1. Concerning the divine ranking of cherubim: The numerous scriptures give no such ranking of a cherub as suggested. There is a scripture that suggest the ranking; in designating a cherub as “anointed” which in particular Hebrew means Messiah. I would point out that this is the same ranking given to Jesus. I find this most interesting, because in every case that I have found that a cherub is linked to religious symbolism – that same symbolism is also used with Jesus. I am curious that a cherub in reality may be a divine title and not a peculiar class or kind of being. 2. I learn a lot about a person’s belief in G-d when they find out that LDS seek to become “like” G-d. For example – here we are accused of arrogance. This tells me that the person making the accusation believes that G-d is arrogant. When someone says that being like (or one with) would spawn rebellion – implies to me that they believe G-d is rebellious by nature. I find such arguments unreasonable, unfounded and desperately prejudice. I am not sure how to respond to such actuations because in all critical cases I find the accusation to be something very different that what I believe G-d to be. 3. Scriptures that indicate that G-d expects us to become like him. Matt 5:48. This can also be understood as completeness implying that in every way we should be like G-d. In addition and in light of the ancient Near Eastern Suzerain, servant or vassal relationship has direct meaning referring to a servant that has “taken upon” the name of the Suzerain. The relationship of Jesus to his followers was that of master and disciple. The word disciple is similar to apprentice. The purpose of religion is to learn of G-d and his ways – The more religious or enlightened we become the more like G-d we become – not the less like him we become. Why would anyone hold to such a ridiculous doctrine??? 4. Worship. One type of worship given is scripture is praise. Often heaven is depicted by numerous beings praising G-d. If praise is worship note that G-d himself worships the righteous in heaven with the phrase “Well done thou good and faithful servant”. 5. Satan sought to be “like” G-d. This is actually a quote from Satan whose very name is liar. This is a quote of his lie because Satan never intended to be like G-d but to end such as a possibility. 6. If someone believes that man should not be like G-d please indicate in what manner we should seek not to be like him. For example of G-d is the master and we are servants – does this mean man should never be in authority (have dominion over the plants, animals or resources of earth – or be a parent {father or mother} of children). I believe man should exercise dominion or authority in the same manner that G-d exercises dominion and authority. We should be like (one with) G-d. The Traveler

So many things here that do not make sense. 1. Where did you learn that Cherubim are angels? 2. If there was another being like G-d they (or G-d) would become rebellious? I see no logic at all in this. If G-d is rebellious how can anyone trust him. If he is not rebellious why would beings like him be rebellious? 3. There would have to be a head G-d? Why? If several bishops are united in purpose must there be one greater than all the others? Are G-d's more incapable of such things than bishops? 4. Worship would be abolished? Emulation is the highest form of worship - Worship would be divinely pure. The Traveler

Why - What about the love, compassion, willingness to forgive and grace of G-d (anything in his naturey) has convinced you of this? The Traveler

Yes - the "Get out of Hell" card in my deck is called the atonement of Christ. That card trumps everything when played. It is my belief that that card is in everybodies deck, however, it appears that some, for whatever reason, won't play it. The Traveler

This is probably an important and relevent point. Could you elaborate and let us in on what surrounds this thought? Perhaps some examples? I'm not making the connection to the conversation about hell, so perhaps you can fill in the gap in my thinking here. You clearly have something in mind here. Please, once again, elaborate? For example, does the WoW fit in here (particular for non-LDS believers in Christ)? I will try to answer two questions: First concerning things taught by the spirit concerning Christ to all man. In my travels one concept I find that has been given to almost all societies by the holy spirit, is that innocent children are to be protected and nourished and that this is best done where the male father and female mother are willing to make sacrificers of their personal wants and needs for the benefit of children. It is my understanding that the abuse of children is a rejection of Christ. Those that claim to have accepted Christ (goodness and enlightenment) on one hand and abuse children - in my mind have rejected Christ (goodness and enlightenment) for something they desire more. This second question concerns the concept of eternal as applied to punishment in hell. One of the possible meanings associated with the extent of the term or concept of eternal, implies no creation or initialization, meaning forever without beginning or end. It appears to me that those that ignore the “without beginning” concerning G-d’s eternal punishment are like the ugly stepsister sticking a foot in the glass slipper and gleefully proclaiming a fit. Not only do I disagree with this as the concept, I disagree with the effort to make it fit. I believe Jesus has power over hell and anyone that turns to him can find deliverance - his atonement is sufficient. I could make a thousand more points concerning this but if someone is backing the ugly stepsister they will think they see a fit regardless of good news as I see it (where I think the slipper does fit and is beautiful - no need to shy away because of potential ugliness). The Traveler

I find it interesting that Nephi warns us of plain and precious truths removed from the Bible. There is no such warning concerning something that might have been added. The Traveler

One of the great problems in religious discussion is shifting meanings or shifting semantics from one discussion to another. Some time ago I posted 5 principles that define divine intervention and help. Let us again review the first two principles for this application. 1. G-d will not do for man what man can do for himself. 2. G-d will do for man what man cannot do for himself. I see hell as that state in which man can and does exist where they, by their choice, desire, and action refuse to do those things that are campatable with and will help then to learn, understand, develop, accept and master the things of G-d. Because of his goodness, G-d commands, offers, suggests and even hints to man of things that man can do. I personally see no difference between a command and hint from G-d though others may think they can find profit from such shifting semantics and pretend some of G-d’s suggestions are not important. When G-d has provided such direction; for someone to say or accept the teaching of someone saying that certain of G-d’s directions are not necessary, required or needful – I see such things as a rejection of G-d the Father and the atonement of Jesus Christ. I think it a lie to pretend that one can reject G-d word on one hand and accept him with another. One does not need a crystal ball to know what in truth is in someone’s heart. Jesus said, “For as a man thinketh in his heart so is he”. To every man G-d gives divine instruction as to things man can do that are good. The spirit speaks these things to all men in all lands and in all times. To some a greater portion is given. “To know to do good and do it not is sin”. And to refuse that good which is given by the spirit is the sure rejection of G-d the Father and the atonement of Christ as is possible. Therefore it is possible to reject Jesus having never heard of his person or Biblical teachings. It is also possible to reject him by declaring him by name or by doctrine while rejecting that portion given in ones particular place or time. “With our mouths honor him but removing our hearts far from him.” To complete this post I will add one other thought. Sin is addictive. Some may think that because of the misery and pain (or even eternal punishment – which does not appear to be to be understood) of sin that people would quit sin just to be over and rid of it. Not true. Just like every other addiction there are major issues in just quitting. Because of this, many soles in hell or on their way come to think that the misery of sin is more enjoyable than the pain of withdrawal and turning from sin, thinking because of the atonement they should not struggle and since they struggle that the atonement is not real. Or they think they have sinned so badly or so often that the atonement no longer can work for them. The promise is that “We are saved by grace after all we can do.” Anyone can turn at any time – but the more addicted they become to sin the more difficult the withdrawal and the more they convince themselves to love sin – so they reject Jesus and his atonement by not doing the things taught by the spirit as good. No one needs be concerned over punishment. Because of the atonement punishment is not the issue. There is no need to look to those that have trespassed against us for payment or relief. In time we will all learn of and understand the atonement of Christ and receive divine relief of sin and the wages of sin – for which all will praise and thank Jesus (no exceptions). Even our own sins are thankfully remitted and payment is not necessary – EVER!!! But thanking and praising Jesus does not mean we have accepted Jesus and the atonement. We must all choose willing, to accept Jesus and his direction (which will break the addiction of sin and is the only way to do so) which means that we accept Jesus by doing “All we can do” as directed by the spirit and then by grace we are delivered from hell. The Traveler

Just a note here - I do not believe that G-d plays games of bait and switch - ignorance and deception is Satan's game, not G-d's. If the rewards of heaven are mystery then there is no way we can choose or desire heaven. In order that a real choice be made one must be able to understand the difference between the possibilities. If not, there is no choice therefore selecting heaven would be a guess not a choice. Jesus said, "If you continue in my word then are you my disciples indeed and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free." Christianity is only a mystery to those that are not loyal - which is in essence the same thing Isaiah told king Ahaz. The Traveler

Sin has nothing to do with glory. The reason I believe there are kingdoms of glory is so we can choose which glory we really like. Those that want and desire a Celestial Glory will live there. It will not take a person long on the internet to discover that most of the religious world really does not want to be (or act) like G-d. The Traveler

Become more involved in service. The Traveler

PC: I think your interpretation of scripture regarding hell is not only disconnected, misleading and wrong but it contradicts every notion that I understand about G-d the Father and the messiah Jesus Christ. But do not think that I expect you to be punished for your delusions; G-d the Father and Jesus Christ as I know and understand them are too merciful and kind for such things. Point 1: Hell is a very exclusive place for sinners only. Without a sinner passport no body gets into hell. Anyone trying to get into hell without sin is not allowed. Regardless what anyone may think, believe or try to prove from scripture the bottom line is quite simple – Without sin no one gets into hell or is allowed to “enjoy” anything hell has to offer. And furthermore anyone in hell that sheds their sins or turns their backs on sin or looses their sinner passport to hell will be immediately kicked out. If you like we can discuss what shedding one’s sins or turning their backs on sin or loosing a sinner passport in tells. My point is that sin is REQUIRED for anyone and everyone in hell. Pont 2: The Messiah – Jesus Christ has already interceded for everybody’s sins. He has paid the debt in full, 100% and there is nothing left to be paid. Nothing!!! Anyone (including G-d) that believes or seeks punishment for their own sins or for anyone else to be punished for sins does so unjustly and outside of justice because that price has already been paid. Again regardless of what anyone thinks, believes or interprets scripture (or anything else) to mean, the simple truth as I understand it is that to believe it is necessary to punish anyone for any sin is to not believe in Christ and his atonement. Satan does not believe in the atonement and believes that he and everybody that has sinned must suffer for sins and reap the full effects of sin and if necessary he can prove his points from scripture. This is contrary to justice and truth and is sick and wrong. It is a lie – but you may believe punishment for sin is necessary if you wish, you can blame this belief on scripture if you wish. I do not wish to be associated in any way to such false thinking. Because of the atonement of Christ punishment for sin is not necessary. Point 3: G-d the Father and his Son Jesus Christ are not hypocrites. They do not preach one thing to mankind and then believe and do something different themselves. They are the very examples of everything they teach. One of the great teachings of Jesus Christ, that he got directly from the Father and as the mediator, and passed this great understanding to us: This is the teaching, “To do good to them that curse you”. The only beings that curse G-d or Jesus are either those in hell or those trying with all their might to get to hell. To visualize the divine as beings that delight in casting (forcing) such soles into hell for punishment is not a vision I share – nor do I want to share it. I personally believe the only way for someone to get to hell and be punished is to reject G-d and justice and desire and want hell instead. They must choose it - Hell is a choice plain and simple. Point 4: Jesus has power greater than hell and he has power over hell. Regardless of the hold that hell has on anyone, Jesus can and will deliver them whenever they will let him. Now we may discuss how someone in hell allows Jesus to deliver them but my point is to make sure that everyone understands that Jesus has such power and that he can deliver a sole from hell. I believe this to be Good News and it is my desire to share this news with anyone willing to listen. But I will not force them to believe it. If they do not want to believe it for any reason I believe it is their choice. Should they ever have a change of heart (which is the meaning of repentance) I think they should know that with G-d deliverance from hell is possible. The only way to prevent deliverance from hell is to desire something more than deliverance. Jesus will not force deliverance upon those that do not desire it. The Traveler

For what-ever it is worth, I though to add my opinion to the ideas being expressed about Hell. I am aware of the many scriptures and various ways to interpret the scriptures. I guess you could say I have chosen to interpret the scriptures in a manner that makes sense to me and is consistent with what I believe and understand about G-d the Father and his Son Jesus The Christ. I believe that what the scriptures say of Hell is very symbolic (not literal) – yet provide important and useful information. I believe that the only persons in Hell will be there because they want badly (pun intended) to be there. I also believe anyone in Hell that wants out can get out any time they want. And I believe G-d does not send anyone there but that - that is where they desire and love to be. I believe G-d sorrows over every sole in Hell and therefore he allows them to be there only because they prefer it – not him!!! I believe G-d created Hell for those that do not want to be with him in heaven and that he has provided every possible benefit that those in hell would accept and live with comfortably. I do not believe G-d condemns those that desire to be in hell but their condemnation is self inflected. I also believe that everyone that cannot give up some sin because of their desire for it will (and do) on their own choose to live in hell – this despite of what they believe of G-d or of Christ. If someone cannot give up any sin because of their desire for it – I do believe they rationalize and lie to themselves about where that love of sin is taking them. I do not think that either G-d the Father or G-d the Son will force anyone to Hell or heaven. I also believe that someone that loves any sin will enjoy hell infinitely more than they would hanging out with G-d in heaven. I believe G-d created hell to be a benefit (as much as possible) for those that do not desire heaven. I believe Hell exist because of the mercy, compassion and love of G-d for his children. I believe in the infinite atonement of Jesus Christ. I believe that Jesus has suffered all that is necessary for all sin and all possible sin by any entity that can commit sin; for ever. In fact my friends, I believe that if Satan were to turn from sin that G-d would figure a way to get even him out of hell. Now I do want to debate the issue of Satan and sin only that if (which is a mighty big if) Satan would turn – G-d would help him. I believe that; and I believe that if you want his help he will help you as well – regardless of what you have done or when you decide to seek his help or how many times you have mess up but G-d will not force anybody to turn from sin. I realize that even some LDS do not interpret scripture as I do and see this differently. And you are all welcome to what you want to believe (which in essence is your own personal heaven or hell) but as for me I believe in the eternal love of G-d and that he desires to help anyone, anywhere, anytime – NO EXCEPTIONS. The Traveler

There are several bad things that can happen for us to need our food storage. It could be that we lose our job for exampel. Or there could be a plauge that if someone went among the public for the space of a year or so they could catch the plauge. In the case of the plauge it would be important to avoid others. If you neighbor wanted you to provide them with food that would endanger your family and at the same time they would be able to obtain food from others and only endanger themself. In the case of general shortage your neighbor ought to be able to purchase food from you - or if they had no means they should be able to survive on your kindness. Hope this helpls The Traveler

Are we to believe G-d is greater than we will ever be - because he does not have the power to do such a thing or because he is not smart enough to do such a thing - or is G-d selfish and cannot allow greatness like his to exist anywhere else? Or perhaps such greatness is not really a good thing? My friend - I submit that even the creation was a great act of love and service and that everything G-d has done is less for him (who needs nothing) including his pleasure, than it was a divine act of service and love for our benefit. I also submit that when we learn to love and serve as he; that he will still love and serve us and welcome us to his side as his friends and will withhold nothing of his greatness from us. And this is the purpose for which he created us and the greatest praise that we or anyone could ever give him. Emulation is the greatest of all possible praise. The Traveler

Just to be clear I am not advocating that any law be delibertly broken. What I am calling to account is blaiming someone as a criminal for not following laws that are not being inforced. If the laws not being inforced then we should look to those in trusted position that issued orders to ignor the law before we look to those that broke the law. Let me add a story here: I have a friend that married a lady from a foreign country. She applied for citizenship and was granted. They have been living as good citizens in our fine country. But the problem is that the mother of the wife is in ill health and is dying. They wanted to bring this lady the the USA to take care of her. What they found is that the law and red tape makes it almost impossible to get this poor dying lady here where they can help her. People without good health are not high pirorities for coming. They were advised by several government officials that what they should do is bring the mother-in-law to the USA illegally through Mexico. It is much easier to get forgiveness than permission. There is a lot more broken here that many of us are willing to address. The Traveler

I wouldn't expect that they provide for my family when they have their own family that is not being provided for. Yes, there are lots of affluent Americans, but there is also a sizeable portion who are liveing at or under the poverty line. As I asked before, how are we going to decide who to help? Do you think we should help everyone in the world who is impoverished? I believe that everyone should always help those that they can. Now I would also like to be clear in what help is. Help is seldom responding to a sympthom instead of a cause. This is the great problem with our wealfair system. I started this thread because none of the opinions I have seen seem to address the problem of refugees coming to our country in increasing numbers. Responding to refugees when they arrive at your door step is not as smart as determining why refugees are leaving their homes and doing something about that. If we can help them fight the cause of their leaving then we will make a difference - otherwise we will only make the problem worse. So far I do not believe very many seem to care why refugees are coming. I talked to someone today that wants to send armed troops to the border. So I asked if they expected our armed troops to shoot to kill 12 and 13 year old unarmed children. I said that I would rather be shot myself that to do such a thing and if I was called to the border I would not shoot any unarmed refugee. I am not sure what some of the rest of you would do??? Now I never said the refugees are not a problem - only that treating the sympthoms will only make the problems worse. The Traveler

Just so everybody knows where I stand. I do not think that G-d really created us just so we would praise him. I do not think he needs our praise or that our praise makes any difference what-so-ever to his kingship or kingdom. The only reason he commands us to praise him is for our benefit - not his. I think G-d had something more important (to him) than our praising him in mind and that is the reason he was willing to sacrifice so much for our benefit. Otherwise his sacrifice seem somewhat stupid in that he could create praisers with much less effort and I do not think him stupid. Personally I think G-d plans that we will behave ourselves in the same manner that he behaves himself as a divine servant. The Traveler

Okay just for fun let us consider a hypothetical. Recently a giant volcano was discovered near the South Pole (Currently not on any volcano maps (yet) and it is extremely hard to find information on the net but if anyone likes I can provide some information). What some scientist thought was global warming was nothing more than this volcano warming things up a bit. This volcano is relatively young, is the 2nd largest in the world and it is active with eruption eminent (which in geological terms means sometime within the next 100,000 years but it could happen next week). Because of the location of this volcano and its activity, when it erupts it will melt most of the Antarctic ice. This will raise the ocean levels from 12 to 20 feet. This will result in displacement of 80% of the world’s human population. It will also shut down 98% of all sea ports world wide. So here is the hypothetical: If for whatever reasons – of necessity – you and your family become refugees: what would you expect from those that have far more than they need? What would you do for your family’s survival? If you were desperate, would you break any laws, especially laws that were not being enforced? Perhaps there should be two threads for discussion: 1. The importance, purpose, morality and value of un-enforced law to those that abide and those that do not (including how to go forward with such laws) and 2. How desperate refugees ought to be treated by the more affluent (Christians???). It would appear to me that most Christians favor passing or enforcing laws (akin to passing by or ignoring a wounded person on your way to Jericho) rather than sacrificing any of your precocious possessions. Or heaven forbid we should try to help “THEM”. The Traveler

Why is it you want to attach criminal to someone that over looks laws that are not inforced? How do you personally feel about laws that would affect you but are not inforced? 5 miles over the spead limit of freeways? Are you a criminal for not paying attention to laws that are not inforced. I am not saying there is not a problem but that criminalizing someone for not respecting uninforced laws is not a solution. BTW: How many of our heros are the one's that are willing to push the limits to get the job done. Can you name any current action hero that does not "push" the law to get the job done? Most consider telling on someone (especially for minor stuff) worse than committing an offense. Are we really a country governed by law or are we all inclined to be criminals when no one is looking thinking that the real sin is getting caught? The Traveler

One of the great criticisms of traditional Christianity is that Christians spend their whole life on earth trying to either get to heaven or convince themselves they belong in heaven yet they have no concept of what heaven is or ought to be like. The interest of this thread kind of demonstrates this point. Mostly I am convinced that most modern Christian’s view of heaven is more in line with the ancient pagan concept than what I believe Jesus attempted to model. Living with my parents, brothers, sisters, wife and children is my view of heaven. The rest of you it is okay with me if you are there but to be honest – I have no desire to drag you there myself. :) The Traveler

The book of Job is one of the wonderful and fascinating books of the Old Testament. It is rich in ancient Hebrew literary form but never-the-less I truly believe that if the book was found today it would be denounced by most Christians (especially the scholars) as heresy, non-Biblical, Gnostic text and doctrine. Snow brings questions to the table that have long troubled the casual Christian student that is willing to study the text. But let us begin with what we know about the Book of Job. The text is not part of those sacred text that was considered among the standard or cannon text known as “The Law” or the “Prophets”. It’s actual place of ancient origin or importance is completely unknown - it is a text of speculation. The entire text is written in what appears today as an ancient Hebrew poetic art form. This adds to the speculation that the story is a complete fabrication rather than a actual event. Plus the story line is similar to other non-Biblical myths and fables common to that time that the text was believed to have first been written. There are two great guides that spiritually assist the LDS student of scripture. First is the knowledge that all scripture at it core testifies of the Christ and his mission to fallen man. And Second is the concept of a type and shadow. That scripture is not just a story but insight into things that have been and that will come to pass. The book of Job is a marvelous look into the fall of man and the atonement of Christ. Verse 6 of Chapter 1 is confusing not only because of the fall of man but because of Satan’s excommunication from heaven and the Kingdom of G-d the Father. However, we learn from Luke chapter 4 that Satan has no problem or difficulty in presenting himself before Christ. I would submit that when the fall of man (Adam) took place that all the spirits of heaven to be born as men on earth were cut off from the Father and dwelt in a heavenly place where Jesus Christ reigned as a mediator king. Therefore Satan appears before G-d the Son and not G-d the Father. Job testifies of the pre-mortal Christ as a king of heaven. This is an important doctrine and type and shadow to understanding of things. The story of Job is doctrine teaching us all of our fallen state in mortality. Not only are we in the grasp of Satan but Satan has power to destroy all good things that we can accumulate in life. The suffering of Job is a type and shadow of death (both physical and spiritual) and our hopelessness for anything good as well as Satan’s dominance over us. As we pass through the suffering of death which is the loss of all but our hope that G-d (Jesus Christ) will remember us and deliver us, ending our misery and suffering. Remember that Job was a “perfect” man (chapter 1 verse1) but had no power of his own goodness to deliver himself from suffering. The Book of Job also testifies that by holding on to the remembrance of G-d (Jesus Christ) that in his mercy he will remember us and deliver us from our suffering and ill treatment by Satan. Job also testifies that we will be rewarded and blessed for our faithfulness. I personally find the book of Job a wonderful testimony of Jesus Christ the Son of G-d and the mediator with the Father and of his deliverance from our fallen state. The Traveler

PC. I hope you do not mind that I add to your thread, some of my point of view. First off to the “Women’s movement”. For many years a great problem existing in our society was being moved toward better understanding. Women were advancing many great causes, including their own opportunities. Then something went wrong. In the late 60's a movement started that became known as the “Free Love” movement or “Hippy” movement. As this stupid movement started to ebb a new “Liberated Male” movement began that idolized men of the James Bond character that could avoid marriage and family and have much more fun (sex) with classy and hip women. This movement also help start the “Liberated Female” movement that idolized women without connection to marriage and family as the ideal and hip woman to match the liberated male. This movement has never been part of the core women’s movement - and I for one regret ever allowing a small minority of “Women” attaching such a flawed concept to the movement started by honorable women some time ago. But you also introduce another problem. That is the problem that many males face today because they are unprepared by their social, political and religious teachers. That is the problem of how to provide for their families. This is not a new problem to our era. It is a rather old problem. May I share with you a couple of stories. First is a lesson from my father. As I have stated in the past - my father always had plenty of money but he made sure that his children did not know this fact til after we had grown to adulthood. I thought I had to work to help support the family but my father had me work for the same reason that man needed to be cast from Eden - to learn the tremendous benefit or blessing of work. Anyway, one day my father came to me with a new assignment. He said that he had arranged for me to work (for free) with a man so I could learn to wash windows. I would work for this gentleman for 2 weeks and then I would be responsible for washing the windows on the family properties. This was not a match made in heaven because I had a hard time learning the “proper” method for washing windows. I wasted too many movements and time. I did learn something else from this window washer. He made more money than the average doctor with his window washing business. His real secret of how to work and make money would take me several more years. The second story is about a Mormon Bishop I met while on my LDS mission in Oregon. This man was unbelievable when it came to raising funds. In those days each LDS ward and stake were responsible for raising funds needed to build churches and various activities, materials and such. The ward was in a poor rural area but one if the riches wards I ever experienced. The ward had fund raisers packaging chickens for shipment a couple of weeks a few times a year and once a year they did inventory at some stores to rase funds - they made all the money the ward needed without a single donation - everybody in the ward was expected to work (give time rather than money). One more thing about this bishop. He only worked about 6 months out of the year and he had this big country place with a huge house. He was a self made millionaire. I asked him what he did for a living when he was working. His answer - a welder. I was a certified welder by time I got out of high school and I thought for a fact welders do not make the kind of money he did. So I pressed for more information. He answered that he was the best welder in the world. When nobody else could get a welding job they would call him and he would figure out how to do it and they would gladly pay him. In the late 60's he made over $200,000 a year and he only worked half the year at his welding business. I have tried to express that money and church work do not mix - kind of like oil and water. That is because money corrupts. You may think there are exceptions but some day you will learn that I did not lie concerning this matter. There are several scriptures that indicate what the L-rd expects. I will offer a few of these concepts: 1. Six days shalt thou labor and do thy work and rest on the 7th day. If someone is a full time minister for the L-rd what six days do they do their work and what day is the day of rest? I do not post this to be critical but if this principle is not understood one will not be able to utilize the L-rd’s method of providing for their family. 2. Learn the secret, joy and benefit of hard work. Learn to enjoy work, learn to love work and wish for work more than money - for both you and your children. Money does not provide what the L-rd expects to be provided by a man for his family but work does. It is the first commandment given to man being sent from Eden. 3. Do not be taken by pride and greed and never spend all you have earned. The Traveler