Traveler

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  1. Thanks
    Traveler reacted to prisonchaplain in Finding Grace - LDS-influenced movie that is simply faith-based   
    I really enjoyed the first episode. The story line is compelling, the characters intriguing, and there's none of the heavy monologue/speech-making that often plagues low-budget faith-promoting films.
  2. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from NeedleinA in New Church video - What is Religious Freedom?   
    What is interesting to me is that in the history of this world - some of the most egregious offences against freedom of religion come from religious institutions.   I do not fault brother Fox for mixing his religion with politics.  I do not agree with his assessments but he has the freedom to say it.  Others have their freedom to disagree.  Trump is an enigma to me - I have never been comfortable  with his morals.  I am not sure he is presidential material.  But there are some thing he has done that I believe is good for our country.
    #1. Prior to Trump no one was willing to say that our border policy was horribly wrong - especially our southern border policy.  If anyone wants to discuss details - I would be glad to do so.  I will be short in saying that drug cartels and other foreign interests have obviously bought off politicians to block border security and limit ICE.  I am more in line with Trump than the criminal elements controlling politicians (swamp).
    #2. Prior to Trump no one was willing to stand up to the bazar claims of climate change and carbon pollution.  I will be glad to debate this issue - we are not destroying our environment with carbon.  I am not saying that we should not be concerned about the environment - just that carbon never was nor is it now a threat to live on earth.  I agree with Trump - the carbon threat does not exist and we need to re-think our environment concerns.  Utah has a severer inversion problem that needs to be address but the environmental  groups are not properly focused - I used to be a member of the Sierra Club but I no longer support their mostly political (not environment) concerns. 
    #3. Health Care.  I am old enough that I remember when the government stopped allowing itemizing health care costs on income tax returns.  The reason given was that health care costs would drain the government coffers.  This was also an era that did not include the cost of health care insurance in health care costs and doctors made house calls.  But two things happened.  Employers started including health care benefits - and with that the costs of health care has increased out of control.  Every place that government has stepped into to help with health care - has only made the problem worse.  I agree with Trump - we need to re-do our health care - I believe people must be invested in their health more than anyone else.  The two biggest problems with health in America is overweight and sedative life style - the two most often responses of health care is drugs and surgery.  There is an obvious disconnect that will prevent incentives to be healthy.  It is considered hate speech to fat shame.
    #4. Foreign affairs.  In the last 50 years I have never read a single article praising the American foreign policies in hindsight.   I agree with Trump that we have blundered - or corrupt foreign policies to the profit of politicians peddling favors.   I do not know for sure but it does look like to me the Biden has cashed in on corruption. 
     
    I could add several more numbers to this list.  I do wish we had someone better.  For me it is like my support of the Big Bang Theory - I know it is flawed and is not the answer but I support it just because it is the best we've got.  I will be so glad when a better theory comes to light - but not near as glad as I will be when someone better than Trump shows up.
     
    The Traveler
  3. Okay
    Traveler reacted to Vort in New Church video - What is Religious Freedom?   
    When Frank Fox, former BYU professor, talks about what a miserable, evil, awful human being Donald Trump is and how he (Fox) is proudly voting for Joe Biden, I have to wonder about the cognitive faculties of many of my more educated fellow Saints. Joe Biden as a defender of faith and integrity? No one can seriously believe that.
  4. Like
    Traveler reacted to Just_A_Guy in Are members in your area: Awake or Asleep?   
    Random thoughts:
    1) This sermon was given eight years before Roe.  We have now been a nation of gleeful baby-killers for some forty-seven years.  Other elements of radical leftism have gone mainstream and infect the right as well as the left.  As Americans we are, by and large, a lazy people, an envious people, a lecherous people, a vulgar people, a profligate people, a short-sighted people, a cruel people, a power-hungry people, an intolerant people; hell-bent on exporting our “values” to every group over which we can assert power and unwilling to allow those within our jurisdiction to “opt out” of our excesses and weaknesses.  We’ve long known that the secular left hates us; but it’s been interesting for me over the past four years, lurking on a number of mainstream conservative fora and seeing the contempt *they* have not only for LDS centrists like Romney and Flake, but even for LDS hard-line conservatives like Lee; our maiming, rape, and deaths are openly fantasized about by conservatives and liberals alike.  The Saints in this country are openly hated in a way we haven’t been for perhaps a hundred years.  And as a matter of historical record, the US remains the only modern nation-state to have allowed apostles to be murdered within its borders; (as far as I know) the only modern nation-state to have imprisoned an apostle; and the only modern nation-state to have allowed (twice) an attempted genocide against the Saints.  
    In that context I’m not sure the US, as a political entity, can be saved.  I’m not sure the US should be saved.  Our national sins are not, on the whole, what the leftists claim they are—but they do exist, and they are legion.
    2)  Whether 1) above is absolutely true or not—conditions have nonetheless changed enough that I’m more interested in what the current Church leadership is saying than in what President Benson said fifty-five years ago.  
    3)  You can destroy a free democratic republic from the top down—but you can’t save or create one that way.  The most effective and meaningful “fighting” you can do is to hold a neighborhood barbecue (and better yet, bring the missionaries).
    4)  Saving the constitution doesn’t necessarily mean preserving the political union, or the power, or the natural resources, or the international statute, or the territorial integrity, of the current US.  It may mean preparing a people willing to implement the individual and civic virtues that are necessary for an individual-rights-oriented democratic republic to function.  Certainly the modern Democratic Party and their henchmen in media and academia tend to undermine that—and I would suggest they haven’t done it, since the 1960s at least.  But Trump does, too.  If we get too bound up in “winning” at the current political game of thrones, we risk being crushed by the stone cut without hands rather than becoming one with it.
    5)  If I may indulge my anti-Trump hobby horse a moment:  the GOP had seventeen candidates in the 2016 primary; and we chose—if not THE most immoral candidates, certainly one of the bottom five.  What, pray tell, has the religious right done lately that would indicate to God that we give a flying flip about His protection and aid?  
  5. Like
    Traveler reacted to Anddenex in Question on "Faith Crisis"   
    What do you guys do with the potentially difficult topics in church history and in modern days?
    I have never craved reading anti-Church literature; I read it because I wanted to be able to answer questions given from the honest seeker of truth. I also, wanted to be able to protect my future children, and to be able to provide accurate responses to well known anti-Church literature.

    In time, similar to @Just_A_Guy (if I understood him correctly), the records we have regarding historical issues aren't complete. They do not provide enough detail, and yet, sadly we see people leaving the Church who (like anti-Mormons) want to fill in the blanks in order to justify their desire for the Great and Spacious building.

    However, I realize I am unique in that sense. A good friend of mine told me that he refuses to look anything up cause he knows he won't be able to "take it".
    This is the thing I find most interesting. When I first started reading anti-Church literature is was to know how to answer questions. I wasn't afraid of it hurting my "testimony"; although, some things were a shock. The returning question has always been, and will always be, did the Lord reveal the truth? It is why I love Jacob 1-7, particularly chapter 7. Jacob is the book to overcoming any "faith crisis." Jacob is the book to overcome any anti-Church material. If the Lord revealed it, then what are you unable to take?
    In saying that though, if a person feels not to read because they are unable to "take it," then I would encourage that person to "avoid" it like the plague. The parable of the sower and Lehi's dream are to real.
    Personally, it fascinates me. Though lately, I have been getting more and more bored with it.
    I found how easily a person could believe a lie, even when truth was plain and clearly taught to be fascinating and disturbing at the same time. One thing that has been true is the experience from my mission where an anti-Church individual said if we could answer the questions proposed from this anti-Church book he would convert (he was of course caught with guile). A member wrote out literally 50 pages answering half of the questions in the book. When the 50 page report was given, he took the 50 pages placed them to his right and said, "This really doesn't change anything."

    As I have experienced this all too often, I am now bored of anti-Church books and people. The majority of them, like this individual mentioned, aren't interested in answers. So now, I avoid it, unless it is coming from my brother, and depending on what it is I will engage. The majority of time, like this individual above, sadly my brother has become no different. No matter the answer his mind has been made up.
  6. Thanks
    Traveler got a reaction from Jonah in The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?   
    As I express my beliefs - I would stress that I am most motivated by logic but I realize that we live in mortality and that there is an "event horizon"  of our knowledge prior to birth and following death such that our beliefs rely greatly on subjections of faith.  Thus, if I can encounter better explanations (which I am always seeking understanding and spiritual confirmation) I will most happily modify my beliefs.  If I seem to reject various notions - it is because I have previously considered them and have not been able to reconcile contradictions.  
    I am inclined to interpret the Eden epoch as greatly symbolic.  For example, most often names recorded in ancient scripture are titles designating a person's destiny.  It is not unusual for a person to be given divine guidance at birth as to what name they should be given (examples are John the Baptist and Jesus).  On other occasions a person's name may be changed by divine decree upon establishing a covenant with G-d (examples Abraham and Israel).  The names of Adam and Eve both carry important symbolism.  The name or title Adam is a symbolic expression of all mankind.   The name or title Eve is a symbolic expression of "the mother of all living".
    Because of my science background - there is a preponderance of evidence that this earth has been inhabited for millions of years with a wide variety of evolving creatures.  In addition there is a preponderance of evidence that modern man has existed for many thousands of years greater that what can be accounted for with a literal interpretation of the Eden epoch.  I find it untenable to claim that a G-d of truth would create a young world to have so much empirical evidence of being magnitudes older.
    As to trees in Eden there are only two trees that are interesting.  The two trees are first: the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and the second: the Tree of Life.  If it is not obvious to you that the Tree of Life is symbolic of the Atonement of Christ - you ought to consider it and I would be interested in why you believe there is a literal tree that nullifies the need to accept the atonement of Christ and simply partake of that fruit.  If the Tree of Life is symbolic - it is difficult to insist that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is literal.
    I do believe it is more important to understand why a person believes something to be true than it is what they believe to be true.
    I hope you will share what you believe about the Eden epoch and why you believe it.  I also hope you will not be upset if I ask questions concerning your beliefs to help me understand what you have honestly considered.
     
    The Traveler
     
  7. Sad
    Traveler reacted to mirkwood in Presidential Debate - Tomorrow   
    mirky gets to work 12 hour shifts tomorrow and Wednesday because of the VP debate.  Tuesday is going to really suck cos I have to work my part time job too.  That means 0600-2030 I will be working.
  8. Thanks
    Traveler got a reaction from Jonah in The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?   
    It is obvious that you and I believe different things.  To answer your question concerning my belief:
    1.  I believe G-d is the root cause and that the fall was an effect of the circumstances G-d created in Eden. 
    2. The fall enabled death and eternal life - which is the symbolic fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  If you require an explanation - Scripture tells us that the "wages of sin is death".  This is the same symbolism of partaking of the fruit of knowledge of evil but stated with different symbolism.  Thus the fruit of evil is death.  So tasting of the fruit of evil brings about (enables) the experience of death.  Tasting of the good fruit of the Tree is the experience of the Atonement of Christ.  The scriptures tell us that only by the atonement of Christ can we (mankind) be resurrected to eternal life.  There is no other possible way to eternal life except through the atonement of Christ - the scriptures could not be more clear about this point.
    3. There is no salvation without eternal life.  G-d is the cause that bring about the effects by which we can enjoy eternal life - which could only come about through partaking of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
    4. To enable G-d's plan of salvation there must be a Adam and Eve to sacrifice themselves to fall that man might be - And a Christ (which means "The anointed one") must complete - through sacrifice of himself that man can be resurrected to Eternal Life.
    5. Participating in G-d's plan of Salvation - of necessity required a fall and and an atonement.  This is why all mankind will justly taste of death and then kneel and confess that Jesus is the Christ.
     
    I have attempted to understand what "other Christians" believe - which is very confusing to me because of all the contradictions which denigrate G-d and deny his wisdom and foresight.
     
    The Traveler 
  9. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from dprh in COVID update   
    Thought the Forum would enjoy this:
    ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=qJYNoODAvro&fbclid=IwAR13TW9a4HveoGnHH3QvPVINtnCBFTnNqrAh6k7Rya5H8c-hlBbP4C001dw&app=desktop
  10. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from dprh in COVID update   
    Thought the Forum would enjoy this:
    ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=qJYNoODAvro&fbclid=IwAR13TW9a4HveoGnHH3QvPVINtnCBFTnNqrAh6k7Rya5H8c-hlBbP4C001dw&app=desktop
  11. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from laronius in Sacrament Talk   
    In ancient times when I was serving as a missionary, I went to the home of a stake president to listen to conference.  What is interesting is that after these many years I do not remember a single conference talk that we listened to together - but I do remember so well the discussion afterwards with the stake president.  He talked to me about preparing for conference and giving talks.  He believed that such is the same.  He asked if I knew that the Thursday before conference that the general authorities met in the upper assembly hall of the Salt Lake Temple for a fast and testimony meeting.  I did not know that.  He recommended that the Thursday ought to be a day of fasting for our leader that they will have the Holy Ghost to guide them through their talks.
    But then he asked me to consider something.  He asked me to imagine that after conference had concluded that I received a telephone call from the prophet.  That the prophet asked that I speak at the next conference on a subject of my choosing.  He asked if I knew what subject I would pick or if I would fast and pray before choosing.  Of course I would fast and pray even if I had a favorite topic - perhaps many time to determine, for sure, a topic.  He then challenged me to outline, write or otherwise prepare my conference talk.  He then said that I should carry that talk with me as I attended my Sabbath meetings and if there was ever a time of short notice - that I was asked to give a talk, I would always have my conference talk prepared. 
    There have been several time that I have had opportunity to give my conference talk but there have been more times that my prepared conference talk has remained forever ungiven except to myself.  I change my conference talk often.  Mostly I think my talks are meant mostly for me.  But, on several occasions I have given my current conference talk - sometimes when attending sacrament meeting not knowing I would speak.  
    Perhaps the most interesting thing about preparing a conference talk is listening to the talks being given and comparing similarities with mine.  Usually this results in me preparing an new talk.  May I suggest that everyone prepare a conference talk and then if asked to speak as @Grunthas - your pressure will be behind you and you will be well prepared.
     
    The Traveler
  12. Thanks
    Traveler got a reaction from prisonchaplain in Finding Grace - LDS-influenced movie that is simply faith-based   
    We Latter-day Saints stumble trying through entertainment to make our doctrine and society pleasing and understandable to more traditional Christians.
    I do not know if you have access but BYUtv is broadcasting a series about Christ called "Chosen".  I find the depiction of characters quite interesting - not quite as I have envisioned such characters but much closer than what I have seen in the past.  I would be very interested in your take - if this is available to you.
     
    The Traveler
  13. Thanks
    Traveler got a reaction from NeedleinA in COVID-19 Dept   
    The result of greed is debt.  This country and most people are so in debt that they cannot abandon their jobs for fear of losing means to pay for and continue their debt.   When the economy become so disrupted that those in debt cannot pay their bills - the result will create such hate that the people of this country will easily be manipulated into war.  This cycle is a fundamental warning of the Book of Mormon. 
     
    The Traveler
  14. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from NeedleinA in COVID-19 Dept   
    Two things have been happening with the pandemic.  First - governments have been shutting down their economies in efforts to stop the pandemic.  This shutting down has had significant impact on the world economy as businesses are going bankrupt.   Second - governments have been increasing their money supplies and borrowing money in efforts to save their economy.  60% of the world debt related to COVID-19 is being financed by China - according to the World Bank data.
    Both Trump and Liberals want much more stimulus.  But the difference is that Trump wants to open up the country's economy and the Liberal want to keep it shut down.  There is an economic war going on and if the Liberals take control of the economy in the next election - I believe the economic war will be lost to China - who know what that will mean.  Regardless, I wonder if we will soon face a world economic collapse and a depression worse than when the stock market failed.   It is also my belief that the only thing preventing a civil war in the USA is the need for greed.  With a depression the riots will definitely make matters worse.  But this may be a great opening for religious corporation.   I think things will both get better and worse.  It will be a great time to be loyal to covenants.
     
    The Traveler
  15. Like
    Traveler reacted to Jane_Doe in The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?   
    Neither of those ideas you present are correct.
    This Earth and life is how God always intended it & according to His plan.  God never went "oh shoot, they ate the fruit, guess I now need to come up with a backup plan to fix this."
    Knowledge of good: knowing what is good, happiness, joy, glory, lawfulness, light, etc. 
    Do you believe those can be learned is a person is kept in an environment where there is no bad, they never are hurt or sad, no lawlessness, no darkness, etc.
  16. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from CV75 in Heavenly Parents   
    I have long believed that there are strong connections between the Book of Mormon and ancient Egypt.  Nibley in his book "The Joseph Smith Papryi" draws attention to the Egyptian obsession with the dung betel (Scarab) as the divine agent of change as a reflection of the phrase "and it came to pass".  Meaning that G-d had a hand in a change.  Or that the change was beyond the efforts and abilities of mankind.
    Also the ancient Egyptians defined time in cycles and ratios.  Our current tracking of time is in also in a ratio of numbers base 60 which is also the basis of defining a circle of 360 degrees.   These ratios also defined elements and the cycles of the universe through death and birth (resurrection).   Water was the base ratio of elements.  It is interesting that in both ancient Egypt and ancient Hebrew that a water abyss is the beginning cycle of creation.  Water is fundamental in building and maintaining our universe as we understand it currently.  The Book of Enoch claims that all corrupted elements are recycled and made pure in stars - water - anciently being the purest form of elements.
     
    The Traveler
  17. Like
    Traveler reacted to CV75 in Heavenly Parents   
    The ancient Hebrews also had a non-linear and non-specific concept of time which is reflected in the Book or Mormon (with some exceptions for the Nephites' accurate date-keeping). For example, the phrase "and it came to pass" does not always convey a sequence.* And conceptually, a chiasm, with its simultaneous reversal of beginning and ending grammatical structures, expresses an "eternal round," and time in this sense might be chiastic, as are some aspects of life (the end-of-life elderly are often as babies) and existence (the end of one phase is the start of another and vice-versa).
    * I find "and it came to pass" is often used in a non-linear and non-specific fashion. For example, in Helaman 3:19, 21, and 37 "and it came to pass" had nothing to do with the order of events, otherwise Nephi would have been only about 5 years old when he began to reign and 14 when he began to preach (4:18, 5:1), give or take a few years (born the 48th year, began to reign the 53rd year; gave up the seat in the 62nd year).
  18. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from CV75 in Heavenly Parents   
    Einstein theorized that time is not "consistent" and since this notion has proven to be accurate.  It is interesting to me that the ancient Egyptian concept of "eternal" was void of time - whereas our modern concept of eternal is in essence endless time.  Many modern thinkers are so connected to concepts of time - that they cannot comprehend eternity without it.
     
    The Traveler
  19. Like
    Traveler reacted to CV75 in Heavenly Parents   
    Agency: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/agency-and-accountability?lang=eng
    It originates in the coeternal beings you brought up, who live in estates prior to mortality, and it continues with them, expanding as they are added upon in life and after death as thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers and dominions expand with the continuation of the seeds.
    Inasmuch as there is gender, there is a sexual component in the relationship, so it is not unreasonable to extrapolate current relationships as a working model for one’s understanding of the afterlife. This is not a “baby factory” and of course women are more than that (that’s a straw man). Your preferred – “better” in your opinion -- working model of having children is based on your particular relationships.
    Time is relevant because you brought up the vast amounts of time and the numbers involved in the continuation of the seeds (heavenly parenting). Whether time is too much or too little, fast or slow, etc. is a function of our reckoning and perceptions which change from estate to estate. P.S. on a quantum scale, space and time are the same things have no inherent direction.
    We do not know the mechanics of the Atonement of Christ either, but we must teach it (and use several working models to do so), along with the covenants and  promises associated with it. Many aspects of the Atonement of Christ can be counterintuitive and is therefore difficult for some people to apply, yet it becomes less counterintuitive as we apply it.
    I don’t know if you are speculating or assuming; rest assured good people do both. Impatience and weariness with others’ beliefs, and also with one’s inability to answer their and others’ questions to their satisfaction is a separate issue, I think. A red flag is when speculation and assumptions sabotage charity.
  20. Thanks
    Traveler reacted to prisonchaplain in The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?   
    Institution corruption? Institutional racism? Hmmm. Yes, it happened--at least in the view of non-Catholic Christians. And, it happens. The Salvation Army started because the uptown Methodists struggled too much with accepting the redeemed/recovering alcoholics that were being brought into their churches. Pentecostal churches and denominations formed because the churches of the early 20th century weren't having that kind of religion. Many young ministers that grew up in denominations choose to plant non-denominational churches so they can make changes more quickly, without the impediments that church governance can bring.
    Still--I'm conservative, and so slow to cry corruption. Jesus was the last religious revolutionary I want to celebrate. Even Martin Luther was an unfortunate necessity. And, though my Pentecostal forefathers were loathe to form denominations (since they had booted them all out), it is amazing how quickly we formed our own "cooperative fellowships." 🙂
  21. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from Still_Small_Voice in The Law of Consecration and Stewardship   
    A little story about the United Order.
    While I was in college I made a friend with a fellow in one of my classes - we often would study together.  He was about a year and a half a head of me and just prior to his graduation we were talking and he produced the blue prints of the house he planed for him and his new bride.  I went over the plans and the house was what I thought was way beyond what a new grad could afford to build.  But he told me that the house would be built as soon as he graduated.   He said that it would be built by his family.  I was impressed and sought more information and his family story unfolded.
    There were in history several places that were quite successful with the United Order.  I believe that it was near Snowflake Arizona that a successful United Order maintained a cattle ranch.  But the Church decided to sell off all the United Order and divest itself.  My friends great grandfather arranged to purchase the cattle ranch and decided to run the ranch within the family as it had previously been ran by the church.  Over the years the enterprise expanded and the family business moved into other enterprises.  They included a construction company, building supplies store, a bank, a grocery store, a doctor's office, a dentist and a few other enterprises.  After high school my friend met with the family board of directors and was offered a position within the organization as an engineer.  The business would pay for his education and he would work within the company upon his graduation.   His pay would not be very good but the benefits were amazing.  The company would provide all the building supplies for his house at cost and his the family would provide the labor free to build his home.  In addition the family bank would provide the mortgage at a very low rate (I believe it was 2% and  the stand rates at the time were between 12 and 18%.  Medical and dental care would be provided by the company's enterprises and he would purchase food ad cost from the family store. 
    I lost track of my friend after his graduation but I found the story interesting.  There are a number of "family businesses" - some less successful but never the less still in operation.  I seriously considered starting a "family business" but none of my children were interested in my consulting business and as truth be known have gone through time of their lives when they were not interested in religious things.  But times have changed and now I have a son that is putting together a family business.  I have invested in his enterprises - we will see how things turn out.
     
    The Traveler
  22. Thanks
    Traveler reacted to person0 in HINDSIGHT: A Story of Faith and Family   
    Some members of this forum already know that between January 2015 - July 2019, my wife and I fostered and eventually came to adopt seven children.  My amazing wife, in addition to the never ending task of being a mother of seven, made time to dedicate herself to writing a book in order to share her side of our story with the world.  I am eternally grateful and proud of my awe-inspiring wife.  I love her and my children with all my heart.  Our story is nothing short of miraculous and we will ever be grateful for the trials and blessings God has placed in our path.

    Here is a link to the book, and a picture of my amazing family.
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08KZ23NKM

  23. Like
    Traveler got a reaction from mirkwood in Conference October 3-4, 2020   
    One of my greatest experiences of life was basic training in the army.  There were no social filters.  We were not divided by intelligence, race, size, health, abilities or any other notable characteristic.   In addition we were all treated like the worthless scum of the earth.  Anyone that stood out for any reason was treated badly just for standing out.  I was very quickly singled out because I knelt beside my bunk on our first night to say my usual nightly prayers.  In addition, I did not swear, smoke, drink or brag about abusing women.  Enough about me.
    Every morning we all got up at the same time - no one was allowed to get up early or late.  We were all required to do the same thing.  Everyone had to shave weather they needed to or not.  We were all required to go to the bathroom.  We all got dressed in exactly the same style of cloths and were required to wear our cloths exactly the same.  If anyone did not follow the rules and requirements - we were all punished.  On occasion we were punished just for the fun of it.  We all went to breakfast at the same time and to the same place and ate the same food.  We could not leave the mess hall until everyone was done eating.  Every hour of every day we all did the same things.  If anyone did not qualify a minimum standard we were all punished and reprimanded for it.  Many times we were all required to do the same thing over and over until everyone got it right.  If there was ever a fight or disagreement with anyone among us; we were all required to "suffer" because of it.  Everywhere we went we had to be instep with each other - we even had to all swing our arms while walking in unison.
    It is spoken in scripture that in certain societies there were no rich or poor, no distinction between bond or free.  This experience of basic training is the closest I have ever been in my life to a social structure without prejudices.  I developed friendships with individuals that otherwise I would not even say hello to on a street.  I learned things about people different from me that I would not come to know by any other means.
    Jesus said to love everyone and to even have compassion for our enemies.  I have a difficult time with compassion - especially with what I think are "stupid people".  My wife is the opposite.   She is popular with everybody.  She does not even care who wins silly card games - even if someone cheats or changes the rules.  She just likes everybody.  And regardless of what someone is going through or feels at any given moment she understands and cares.  Mostly, she puts up with me.  She is just about the only person I know that is without prejudice - but in scripture it is called - "without guile".
     
    The Traveler
  24. Like
    Traveler reacted to Just_A_Guy in The Fall - Blessings or Punishments?   
    What Carb said.
     
  25. Like
    Traveler reacted to estradling75 in So my longtime friend thinks Pope Francis is the Antichrist   
    That is where I was going to go with it.  The night without darkness is hard to explain scientifically because we lack any kind of evidence (except for the testimony of the Book of Mormon itself)  Where as the wise men also saw the sign in the Heavens of Christ's birth and acted on it.  This seemed to be a sign that was clear to those watching but otherwise not remarkable...
    It is natural to assume they were one and the same but they seem very different, and I am not even sure they are the same mechanism.