Traveler

I have always been of the notion concerning nonpaid voluntary services – anyone that wants to take over and be in charge – ought to be.  Better them than me.  I will serve whenever I can – but if someone wants more of the service for themselves – I have never thought or felt it to be a problem.  Let whoever serve to their heart’s content.
 
The Traveler

The failure of education is in inculcating the idea into parents' heads that the schoolroom is the only place where children learn finances, physical education, religious education, etc.
It still boggles my mind that people believe everything a child needs is taught in the schoolroom.  No dudes.  The schoolroom is JUST ONE TOOL in the parental arsenal of raising children.

Thank you, @Traveler. Your explanation helped greatly. "Living" has been used by some to suggest that historic documents, including the Bible and the U.S. Constitution, can be interpreted through our current cultural/value perspective. The contrast are originalists, who believe that we should interpret such writings in their original setting to determine their meanings. So, when you spoke of living scriptures, I took a sharp left turn.

I think there is a little misunderstanding of what I have tried to understand as “living” scripture.  The example you have provided as interpreting scripture in light of modern culture is not at all what I had in mind.  Rather it is the reverse.  That scripture is prophetic.  I will try this by giving an example that I am sure you already know because it is so obvious:
First the ancient prophesy in Psalm 107:23-30:
Now we go to the first prophetic fulfilment which is testified to in Matthew 8:23-27
With my single example we now have a witness of the prophetic nature of scripture – however, because we are dealing with “living” prophecy or scripture – this prophesy will be fulfilled again during what is called the “time of restitution of all things”.  And just as prophets testified of the first fulfillment – which have been added to scripture.  So also shall the witness of prophets yet reveal and witness to fulfillment of many more things that witness of G-d’s hand and his kingdom moving in our day as in the days of Moses, Isaiah and other prophets.
 
The Traveler

I thought for fun I would list some critical areas that are not covered in our educational system – that have catastrophic effects on our society.  Feel free to comment, add your own or defend our educational system as the example to the world and all following generations.
The first great failure – personal finances; especially the devastating effect of debt.  With real life examples of how a person can purchase a house hold item on sale for $500 with credit and end up paying $20,000 in interest and penalties.   Also teach asset management allowing individuals to turn income extractions into income additions.  In short – how to manage income to maximize benefits.  Something more than a how to balance a bank account.
Second great failure – physical education.  More than exercise activity students should be taught cardio training and also nutrition (more than just food groups) and effects of various diets and exercise – under the notion that everyone follows a diet and exercise routine; so the purpose of education is to clearly understand the known and documented results of whatever diet and exercise one chooses.
Third great failure – religious education.  Most seem to think that religion should not be included in public or private education (with the exception of their own particular religious preference).  I have long believed that history cannot be understood or properly studied without understanding the religious context of the time and place of the historical events.  Most often religious beliefs are only taught with great prejudice and bias as an effort to color history or present religious thinking in a light not applicable to the historical events.  There is very little education that ties historic turns directly to specific religious beliefs.  I am convinced that very few are willing to study history and religion together as cause and effect.  That they have preconceived ideas of specific religious notions with no clue how such beliefs impact history.
 
The Traveler
 

I learned my understanding of finance from my father, who learned it from his father-in-law that learned it from his father.  It may go back farther but this is the extent of my personal understanding.  One note at this point – my great-grandfather was the executive secretary (similar to CEO) of one of the LDS Church’s more successful United Order operations.   I also know that many of the principles I was taught were part of the principles my great-grandfather utilized while overseeing his United Order calling.
I will use the example of one of my sons that a few years back (he and his wife) decided to rethink their finances.  My son has a very good job and makes a six figure income but he also attended a very prestigious college where he racked up $200,000 in student loans.  They had been trying to pay off student loans but were having a hard time making headway with the tremendous debt.   My son had had several talks with my father before my father passed.  He came to me for advice and help.  We worked a plan together.   At the time they had 3 children under 6.  They were renting a small two bedroom apt.
The plan we came up with was that they would move from their apartment into our home so they would not have to pay rent - then to play less on the student loans and save up a down payment on a home.  He and his wife decided to sell one car and he would mostly commute by bicycle – this eliminated a car payment which meant that they only had the student loan debt.  Six months later he found a fine home that he qualified for – those that have gone through this process realize that you can qualify to borrow more money than you can possibly pay back.  We decided I would loan him some extra so he would not have pay mortgage  insurance.  He purchased the house – then according to the plan he moved his family into the basement and rented the upstairs to cover the mortgage.  They were now living – in essence – rent free and mortgage free in their own home.
But life was not so fun.  The basement needed remodeling which was most inconvenient while living in the space – but they did it.  The nursery was placed in a little room under the stairs – aka Harry Potter.   He learned plumbing and electrical as I helped him with the remodel.  A three bedroom apt was created but he needed one bedroom for an office.  It was a difficult sacrifice but they were willing.
One year later he discovered he could qualify to buy another house.  He and his stay at home wife found a house in St George that they could buy new and make changes according to their specifications.  He now knew a lot more about electrical and plumbing so he and I worked together to finish the unfinished basement which he was able to rent out to cover the mortgage on the new home – the upstairs he set up for AirB&B (or whatever it is called).  He was able to create quite a cash flow besides living free himself.
Last month (June) he paid off the last of his student loans.  Plus he can finely purchase the car of his dreams (Tesla) and pay cash and still have enough to purchase another home.  Or he could quit his job and just live off his investment.  They decided that living a simple life is a lot more fun.  They decided to remain in the basement despite that they now have 4 children all in one bedroom.   He is keeping his job.  Their plan now is to get the youngest into pre-school and send the wife back to school – and in essence just enjoy life.  This little lady of his, had become a wonder – from a high school drop out to very with it elegant lady that has finished her high school and has already been accepted to the U of U but trying to rediscover what she wants out of life. 
In talking with my son and his wife the other day – they expressed that life, work, church and community take on a whole different level of fun and enjoyment when there is no debt.  Jokingly my son said, “Why didn’t you teach me this earlier?”  It took this son 30 years to catch on.
 
The Traveler

I would list two things:
First: That scripture is not just about doctrine.  There is more to scripture than data and information.  In part as is said, "The devils also believe and fear and tremble".   The scripture being an open living source of witness - both to a Living G-d and a Living Kingdom (church) which includes - the Law, the Ordinances and the covenants.
Second:  is prophesy specific to our culture, age and time.  This being the Last-Days - continuing scripture is the unification of all believers preparing for what is next.
 
The Traveler

Teaching is the great calling – perhaps the greatest calling.  I have always believe the most important lesson to be taught is how to learn – the rest is just fluff to make someone feel good.  My father started out his life profession as a school teacher.  He quickly learned that regardless of how easy he made his course work – there would always be some student fail to engage and thus fail the subject to be learned.  He also discovered regardless of how difficult his course work – someone would engage and succeed.  He then observed that regardless of difficulty or simplicity – those that engage were always the same students and those that did not engage were always the same.  He wondered who was most important – the teacher or the student.
The great lesson of every missionary and teacher comes from the methods Jesus utilized in his teaching style.  In essence Jesus ignored those that did not engage.   It was not that he did not care – I believe he realized that it was pointless.  But for those that engaged – he always responded and encouraged them to take their level of engagement to a higher (better or spiritual) level.
I very much appreciate the contribution of @NeuroTypical in realizing that taking one’s engagement in church lessons to a higher level can go beyond the acquisition of data and information.  Sometimes the best way to “teach” is to inspire someone to alter what they are doing and not so much what data they are acquiring.  My father – my greatest teacher would often tell me – no one has learned anything until and unless they change something that they were doing.  The great lesson I have learned in life is that the only one that I can change when I want things to be different - is myself.
 
The Traveler

Those 2 sentences are the same.  Wanting to Obey God requires a Knowledge of Good when you factor in the most important gift of Free Agency.
Pleasure versus Joy are 2 very different things.  Joy is Good - it has a moral component.  Pleasure has no moral component.  The perfect example for this (easier to understand, I think, than the examples previously given, ie. heroin addiction, rape, sunsets, etc.) is Sexual Pleasure.  Sexual Pleasure has no moral component.  Sexual Pleasure is Sexual Joy ONLY under the Marital Covenant.  Pre-marital Sex, Adulterous Sex, Sex between the same gender are Sexual Pleasures and NOT Sexual Joy. 
The Plan of Salvation's purpose is so that Man may have Joy.  We come closer to Joy when we come closer to Christ who is our perfect exemplar.
Hope this helps.

I learned my understanding of finance from my father, who learned it from his father-in-law that learned it from his father.  It may go back farther but this is the extent of my personal understanding.  One note at this point – my great-grandfather was the executive secretary (similar to CEO) of one of the LDS Church’s more successful United Order operations.   I also know that many of the principles I was taught were part of the principles my great-grandfather utilized while overseeing his United Order calling.
I will use the example of one of my sons that a few years back (he and his wife) decided to rethink their finances.  My son has a very good job and makes a six figure income but he also attended a very prestigious college where he racked up $200,000 in student loans.  They had been trying to pay off student loans but were having a hard time making headway with the tremendous debt.   My son had had several talks with my father before my father passed.  He came to me for advice and help.  We worked a plan together.   At the time they had 3 children under 6.  They were renting a small two bedroom apt.
The plan we came up with was that they would move from their apartment into our home so they would not have to pay rent - then to play less on the student loans and save up a down payment on a home.  He and his wife decided to sell one car and he would mostly commute by bicycle – this eliminated a car payment which meant that they only had the student loan debt.  Six months later he found a fine home that he qualified for – those that have gone through this process realize that you can qualify to borrow more money than you can possibly pay back.  We decided I would loan him some extra so he would not have pay mortgage  insurance.  He purchased the house – then according to the plan he moved his family into the basement and rented the upstairs to cover the mortgage.  They were now living – in essence – rent free and mortgage free in their own home.
But life was not so fun.  The basement needed remodeling which was most inconvenient while living in the space – but they did it.  The nursery was placed in a little room under the stairs – aka Harry Potter.   He learned plumbing and electrical as I helped him with the remodel.  A three bedroom apt was created but he needed one bedroom for an office.  It was a difficult sacrifice but they were willing.
One year later he discovered he could qualify to buy another house.  He and his stay at home wife found a house in St George that they could buy new and make changes according to their specifications.  He now knew a lot more about electrical and plumbing so he and I worked together to finish the unfinished basement which he was able to rent out to cover the mortgage on the new home – the upstairs he set up for AirB&B (or whatever it is called).  He was able to create quite a cash flow besides living free himself.
Last month (June) he paid off the last of his student loans.  Plus he can finely purchase the car of his dreams (Tesla) and pay cash and still have enough to purchase another home.  Or he could quit his job and just live off his investment.  They decided that living a simple life is a lot more fun.  They decided to remain in the basement despite that they now have 4 children all in one bedroom.   He is keeping his job.  Their plan now is to get the youngest into pre-school and send the wife back to school – and in essence just enjoy life.  This little lady of his, had become a wonder – from a high school drop out to very with it elegant lady that has finished her high school and has already been accepted to the U of U but trying to rediscover what she wants out of life. 
In talking with my son and his wife the other day – they expressed that life, work, church and community take on a whole different level of fun and enjoyment when there is no debt.  Jokingly my son said, “Why didn’t you teach me this earlier?”  It took this son 30 years to catch on.
 
The Traveler

I'm glad I did get some training in understanding interest rates in highschool and always understood that a a higher credit limit simply meant I could borrow more that I'd have to pay back and not that I had more money... which is sadly the state I've observed others in - they actually believe by increasing their credit limit they are wealthier.
It also reminds of a conversation I had recently with a salesperson from my phone company who wanted me to buy their TV service as well. He kept telling me that I would be saving lots of money by getting this TV service and couldn't seem to understand the concept that unless my bill actually decreased from what I'm already paying that I would not be saving any money. The deal he was trying to sell me on still would have increased my monthly bill by $50, which in no way saves me money.

I would recommend a book titled "The Richest Man in Babylon".  The symbolism that many engage in concerning their personal finance is compared to "eating your own children" - may seem harsh but the reality of the point is spot on.
 
The Traveler

The only thing worse than a smart alec  woman is a smart alec guy in the same room.   And of course it is always going to turn out the worst for the guy. 
 
The Traveler

Does this mean you didn't like my gender joke?  Maybe we're both having fun at the other's expense and neither of us realizes it.

Well I am sitting pretty on the glorious Millenial generation so I don’t have too much to compare against, but from what I see of myself and my generation, I completely agree.
I look back in my life and I don’t have a clue of how I could have even sought out the opportunities you had.

This is an old BYU joke. Note that this joke is not a criticism of the coeds.

I've always looked askance at educators and public or institutional education in general.  Easy to do as a homeschooling dad.  Then one day I overheard a group of teachers talking amongst themselves.  One of them said something to the tune of "You know, if I fail at everything else, if I could just get them to understand the difference between their opinions on how things should be, and how things actually are, I'll call that success."  I realized I probably have more allies in the effort to educate my kids than I had previously assumed.
So yeah, I pretty much agree with Traveler's 3 failures, but I'll still be grateful for every genuine effort and caring educator out there.

I thought for fun I would list some critical areas that are not covered in our educational system – that have catastrophic effects on our society.  Feel free to comment, add your own or defend our educational system as the example to the world and all following generations.
The first great failure – personal finances; especially the devastating effect of debt.  With real life examples of how a person can purchase a house hold item on sale for $500 with credit and end up paying $20,000 in interest and penalties.   Also teach asset management allowing individuals to turn income extractions into income additions.  In short – how to manage income to maximize benefits.  Something more than a how to balance a bank account.
Second great failure – physical education.  More than exercise activity students should be taught cardio training and also nutrition (more than just food groups) and effects of various diets and exercise – under the notion that everyone follows a diet and exercise routine; so the purpose of education is to clearly understand the known and documented results of whatever diet and exercise one chooses.
Third great failure – religious education.  Most seem to think that religion should not be included in public or private education (with the exception of their own particular religious preference).  I have long believed that history cannot be understood or properly studied without understanding the religious context of the time and place of the historical events.  Most often religious beliefs are only taught with great prejudice and bias as an effort to color history or present religious thinking in a light not applicable to the historical events.  There is very little education that ties historic turns directly to specific religious beliefs.  I am convinced that very few are willing to study history and religion together as cause and effect.  That they have preconceived ideas of specific religious notions with no clue how such beliefs impact history.
 
The Traveler
 

My high school calculus teacher agreed with you there. To partially address this, during the time between the AP test and the end of the school year, he assigned us all to prepare and give a presentation on a personal-finance-related topic.

Dear God,
You were wrong. That's really lame. Please get with the program, preferably sooner rather than later. The cool kids are mocking us.
Your humble servants,
Us.

WOW needs an update.  The coffee and tea thing needs to go away. Totally obsolete. There are a lot of recent studies extolling the virtues of coffee and even Consumer Reports expounded on its benefits recently.  Tea has also been found to be beneficial  
Kind of like the reasons for keeping Kosher are no longer valid, we need a new revelation IMNSHO.

First I would ask a question - who claimed to be the "way"?  Now look at Genesis 3:24.  In particular for the responsibility of the Cherubim in the final phrase of verse 24.  Now  look at Revelation 19 verses12 - 21.  Who judges mankind with fire and a sword?
 
The Traveler

According to Brandon Sanderson, he did.  I assume the source was Modesitt himself (Sanderson talked as if they knew each other).  Confirmed - US Navy pilot: http://www.lemodesittjr.com/about-the-author/
I don't recall fighting or other serious military details in this novel - it was more political (to my recollection), but I could be wrong - it's been several years.
Obviously, this isn't something I can predict - you'll have to judge that for yourself.  Fortunately, his SciFi are all (to my knowledge) stand-alone and comparatively short, so not much invested to test them.

I have read science fiction and fantasy but have been disappointed that there is just too much unbelievable fiction or fantasy and almost no reality.  I have attempted to write my own science fiction (“Enigma” – a first contact of earth with advanced intelligence – symbolic of discovery of G-d.  “Mariana Trench”  - explores the fear of greater intelligence – symbolic of why Christ was crucified and why G-d is dumbed down in worship.  Feathers – about an idiot savant that communicates with birds – autobiography, symbolic of my own life as an idiot or misfit in one circumstance but considered a genius in another circumstance and the real individual caught in between.) 
I tried short story contests – one titled “First Date” submitted as a personal story but was rejected as being fantasy.  And one titled “Dream Quest” a personal story about a 40 day fast in the wilderness desert of southern Utah – also rejected as fantasy – I think our culture does not understand the native American concept of a dream quest.   I am convinced that fantasy is more believable than real life.
Originally I started posting on internet forums in an attempt to connect to others that I would phrase as normal people through writing.  Obviously I am a work in progress that will experience death long before success on any rational level.  It would seem that I am doomed to fantastic failure on one hand or abundant unexplainable success on another.
So to answer your question – I am interested in science fiction and fantasy but do not seem to be able to connect through the written medium – regardless if I am reading or writing.
 
The Traveler

Don't know if you read fiction, Traveler, but L. E. Modesitt Jr. has a science fiction book titled Adiamante set in the future of Earth (all his science fiction is future Earth / earthlings) where they don't have a permanent head of government, and anyone who accepts the position when one is needed racks up debt (instead of getting paid), which he must repay by doing some form of public service once his time as head of government is completed.  That's not what the book is about, just an interesting feature of the world it portrays.  The link above is to Amazon, but the Utah library system should have it (that's where I read it, and Modesitt is a Utah resident).  As a bonus, unless it's the exception (I can't remember), you'll find a futuristic version of Mormons (with a slightly tweaked name) portrayed in a somewhat negative light (they say Modesitt doesn't like the Church) - I always find these mildly amusing.