Traveler

As a caveat, I implied relying on our 5 basic senses makes differentiating virtual reality from “reality” almost impossible.  However, I would purport that sensory information is never pure knowledge even when it is an integral part of knowledge.  We are told that spiritually sensing will result in knowledge.  It is at the spiritual level that deception and knowledge actually occurs.  But we are conversing at a sensory level so it is impossible for me to prove this to you – though you can prove it to yourself.  I have also discovered that I can “spiritually connect” but such a connection is most difficult to maintain as a fallen mortal being.   Thus, I believe that to associate with truth in this life – we must seek to repeat spiritual connections – almost to the point of scheduled ritual.
As a cyclist, Krispy Cream donuts are not much of a temptation for me just because of what they cause on ride.  This, in a small part, corresponds with a teaching of Christ, “If you continue in my word you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free”.   The point I am making is that it is not impossible to know if G-d is lying – but not at the sensory level of understanding.
For your information, I write G-d for two reasons – The first is to show respect for those I have met in my travels that hold such respect, can – without infringing of their covenants copy anything I write and show it to whomever they want.  The second reasons is to be a constant reminder to me – while on the internet – that my words reach far beyond the sphere that I may even intend and that therefore I should be a little more careful what and how I respond.  Unfortunately, there are time it is not enough.
 
The Traveler

I thought I would add some additional Egyptian secret connections – not known by anyone when the Book of Mormon was written.  An Egyptian Colophon in 1Nephi:
The first three verses of 1Nephisharply set off from the rest of the text, are a typical colophon, a literary device that is highly characteristic of Egyptian compositions.  A typical example is the famous Bremer-Rhind Papyrus, which opens with a colophon containing:
#1. The Date
#2. The Titles of Nasim, the author
#3. The names of his parents and a word in praise of their virtues, with special mention of his father’s prophetic calling.
#4. A curse against anyone who might “take the book away,” probably “due to fear least a sacred book should get into impure hands.”

Compare this with Nephi’s Colophon:
#1. His Name
#2. The merits of his parents, with special attention to the learning of his father.
#3. A solemn avowal (corresponding to Nasim’s curse) that the record is true, and the assertion, “I make it with mine own hand: (1Nephi 1:3)
 
Egyptian Closing:  Egyptian literary writings regularly close with the formula iw-f-pw (“Thus it is,” “and so it is”).  Nephi Ends with the main sections of his book with the phrase, “And thus it is, Amen” (1Nephi 9:6; 14:30; 22:31).
In essence we have – by the literary forms used by Nephi – a personal witness that his record is historically accurate even by the method of asserting that his record is divinely inspired and historically accurate.
 
The Traveler

If G-d lies he is not all that intelligent, good, honest, just or worthy of worship.  If there is no source of truth in the universe - then seeking truth is both useless and foolish on our part.
 
The Traveler

@Luke
I am an engineer working in the field of industrial automation, robotics and artificial intelligence.  Because of my scientific background, I am rather attached to empirical evidence as a means for discovering truth.  And yet I have a couple of sons working on pushing the threshold of virtual reality.  The more it is possible to stimulate the senses the more it is difficult to distinguish between reality and a virtual reality.  I have had many discussions about this.  For example, it would be much easier to create our universe (and the vastness of it) as a virtual reality than to create a real one.  G-d could have control and still allow individual will and agency.   Certainly, our experience would be easier to explain in so many ways – even things like a resurrection become simple and the notion that G-d thinks and declares something and it is; would make a lot more sense.  It also means that our suffering and other concerns are not as “real” as we may think.  Finally, or sins and transgressions against others in a virtual reality can easily be mitigated and resolved.  The sins are no longer as bad – what is bad is a refusal to address our attachment to sin not the problem we superfically cause others.  It is very possible we are in a Matrix reality.  But the reality is that we must deal with current circumstance.  We cannot deal with that which we cannot interface.
I also want to address your concern over the rebellious sons and daughters of G-d in our pre-existence.  I have wrestled with this conundrum for many years.  My concern is a little different.  I have resolved that in the full light of understanding and knowledge (including consequences) – Satan and his followers rebelled against G-d and chose darkness over light.  But this make almost no sense to me.  It seems to be to be both foolish and stupid – that they would someday regret such a choice.  But a someday regret would require that something happened that they did not foresee.   And if they did not foresee or understand – how could they have made a choice and exercised agency?  How is it that in the very presents of G-d that they could be deceived?  Not that G-d would be the deceiver but how could he allow them to deceive themselves?
In all cases that I have observed myself and others making bad choices – it has been because something was missing from understanding – thinking the results would be for the benefit and different that what was real.   Thus, if something was selected such that we would discover that it really was not our choice but was forced upon us by some outside force taking advantage of our ignorance – how can it be said that there was a choice to rebel?   The only resolution I can imagine is that Satan and his followers knew the results of their choice and that the result was their choice.  I have come to understand that I do not understand others very well – if they do not think and conclude as I do – I cannot relate very well if at all.  I just do not usderstand what Satan and his followers were thinking.  I am not sure I even want to try very hard to do so.  I have kind of given up resolving why or how they made their very silly and stupid choice.
 
The Traveler

The problem with a really good post in a forum like this is that there is not much that can be added - pro or con - that will not in some way distract from the initial message.  Often if one wants to get a lot of comments going - you need to say something a little more on the stupid side.  For sure that will generate lots of interest.
 
The Traveler

It has been my observation that wherever you find a well-functioning patriarchal society, you will also find a powerful matriarchy.

@Luke
I am an engineer working in the field of industrial automation, robotics and artificial intelligence.  Because of my scientific background, I am rather attached to empirical evidence as a means for discovering truth.  And yet I have a couple of sons working on pushing the threshold of virtual reality.  The more it is possible to stimulate the senses the more it is difficult to distinguish between reality and a virtual reality.  I have had many discussions about this.  For example, it would be much easier to create our universe (and the vastness of it) as a virtual reality than to create a real one.  G-d could have control and still allow individual will and agency.   Certainly, our experience would be easier to explain in so many ways – even things like a resurrection become simple and the notion that G-d thinks and declares something and it is; would make a lot more sense.  It also means that our suffering and other concerns are not as “real” as we may think.  Finally, or sins and transgressions against others in a virtual reality can easily be mitigated and resolved.  The sins are no longer as bad – what is bad is a refusal to address our attachment to sin not the problem we superfically cause others.  It is very possible we are in a Matrix reality.  But the reality is that we must deal with current circumstance.  We cannot deal with that which we cannot interface.
I also want to address your concern over the rebellious sons and daughters of G-d in our pre-existence.  I have wrestled with this conundrum for many years.  My concern is a little different.  I have resolved that in the full light of understanding and knowledge (including consequences) – Satan and his followers rebelled against G-d and chose darkness over light.  But this make almost no sense to me.  It seems to be to be both foolish and stupid – that they would someday regret such a choice.  But a someday regret would require that something happened that they did not foresee.   And if they did not foresee or understand – how could they have made a choice and exercised agency?  How is it that in the very presents of G-d that they could be deceived?  Not that G-d would be the deceiver but how could he allow them to deceive themselves?
In all cases that I have observed myself and others making bad choices – it has been because something was missing from understanding – thinking the results would be for the benefit and different that what was real.   Thus, if something was selected such that we would discover that it really was not our choice but was forced upon us by some outside force taking advantage of our ignorance – how can it be said that there was a choice to rebel?   The only resolution I can imagine is that Satan and his followers knew the results of their choice and that the result was their choice.  I have come to understand that I do not understand others very well – if they do not think and conclude as I do – I cannot relate very well if at all.  I just do not usderstand what Satan and his followers were thinking.  I am not sure I even want to try very hard to do so.  I have kind of given up resolving why or how they made their very silly and stupid choice.
 
The Traveler

Modesty is a cardinal principle of the Law of chastity.  Modesty is also a means of communicating – intelligence among other things.  If someone swims with piranha and deliberately adds blood to the water – it will not matter much where the blame lies – blame will not change much of what happens. 
Scientifically we define intelligence as the ability to learn and modify our behavior to bring about a more desirable result.   When it comes to social behavior – how we behave and adorn ourselves has a lot to do with how we want and intend other to perceive us.   Anyway – it should.   I have often wondered why on Halloween – so many ladies go out of their way to appear as characters generally considered immodest?
If someone truly does not care what others think of them – then they will not complain about what others think, say and expect of them based what they think of them.   There are always exceptions but my point is – that if you do not want particular responses then avoid those things (whenever possible) that seem to be directly related to unwanted responses.    
 
The Traveler

Have a random unpopular definition:
Discrimination: The ability to look at two or more groups or things or behaviors, and discern differences between them.   

When you say "patriarchal", do you mean "men-only" or do you mean "father-governed"? Since we're talking about the history of God's dealings with His children, it makes a difference.
Are these religious structures you can think of part of the documented Christian organization as chronicled in the New Testament? The historical Old Testament revelations that preceded it? or are you referring to some extra-biblical organizations?

Isaiah prophesied that there would come a time of human withdrawal from G-d throughout the earth (See Isaiah 24).  The imagery used by Isaiah is the earth becoming “empty”, “turned upside down” and humanity scattered.  This is very different than “becoming one” as described by Christ.   I submit that disciples of Christ (real Christians) are not diverse.  Diversity in the kingdom of G-d is the anti-Christ.  Ture Christians are not diverse but of “One mind and one heart”.  Jesus said, “If you are not one you are not mine.”
Isaiah described a “great apostasy” but the flaw is that many think of apostasy strictly in terms of doctrinal heresy.   But in verse 5 of Isaiah 24 – Isaiah describes that man separates from G-d by – 1. Transgressing the Law.  2. Changing the Ordinances and 3. Breaking the everlasting Covenant.
If you like we can explorer together how Traditional Christianity, following the advent of the Apostles, that Christianity did indeed transgress the Law, change the Ordinances and break the everlasting Covenant – the covenant that was given to Adam in Eden.
At this point I would take you to the prophetic imagery of the Prophet Daniel (chapter 2).  Here the Prophet Daniel uses the imagery of a human figure to represent the great kingdoms of the earth leading up to the “Last Days”.   The final kingdom of Iron is generally understood to be the Roman empire.  First divided into two parts – the two legs of the human figure and eventually into ten weak kingdoms of iron mixed with clay in the 10 toes of the figure.  At the time of the weak kings a stone would be cut from a mountain by G-d to break down and replace the kingdoms of man.  I will leave you do your devices to determine when the Roman Empire was reduced to 10 kingdoms that fell and became democracies.
Now I will return to Isaiah to identify the stone cut out by G-d.  In Isaiah chapter 2 verse 2 Isaiah tells us that the “mountain of the Lord’s house” (Did you note that Danial said the stone will become a mountain?) will be established in a place known as “the top of the mountains”.  
In 1846 the Mormons were forced to leave the United States and journey into Mexican territory to establish a place where they could practice their newly restored religious faith.  This is despite that the US constitution (2nd Amendment) grants by law peaceable assembly (by diverse Christians?).  Shortly after the Mormons settled in the West the US settled a war with Mexico and took possession of the territory.  The Mormon territory was given the title of Desert.  For many years the Mormons petitioned the US to become a state but the anti-Mormons in congress prevented it.  The territory of Desert was divided and the Mormon territory shrunk until near at the end of the 19th Century the Mormon territory was granted statehood – but the last second in congress the name was changed from Desert to Utah to spite the Mormon’s desire to name their state.  No one realized that this fulfilled the prophesy of Isaiah 2:2.  -  Not even the Mormon’s.  How was this a fulfilment of the prophesy?
Because in the native American tongue of the Ute people the literal meaning of Utah is “the top of the Mountains.”
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons) are not a break off from any organization of man but rather the restoration of the Law, Ordinances and Covenants established anciently but lost because the Law was transgressed, the Ordinances changed and the Covenant broken.
 
The Traveler

I would like to add D&C 93:30 to this idea: "All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence." The movie uses an "evil twin" of this holy concept, where a victorious AI places individuals' consciousness in spheres within a superstructure that keeps them content and under control to exploit their living tissue to provide bioelectric power. In the movie, a lie is inherent in the scheme and we as an audience can see that (the prisoners cannot). But because in our Gospel reality every intelligence is "gnolaum," no intelligence (even the devil) or sphere by definition can inherently be a lie, either singularly or relative to another, right up to God (Abraham 3:18-19). And because within our sphere we are told that there is no space where there is no kingdom (and no kingdom where there is no space), and it cannot be comprehended without the law of opposition (note that this is the pivot point in the movie), the superstructure is indeed vast and difficult to manage, mostly because it depends upon the agency of man, the Chief being God.

This is not at all what I expected.  I am not so interested in your conclusions as I am how and why you have arrived at your conclusions.  I would be most interested in any empirical evidence you have as well as “spiritual” revelations (insights into scripture) and why you are inclined to hold to (what appears to me to be unique) interpretations of select scripture passages.  How do you interpret Genesis Chapter 1 – especially verse 24 (also parallel to Moses 2:24) that seems to directly contradict your conclusion?
BTW some believe that it never rained on earth until the days of Noah.  Is this in line with your thinking?  Was Noah part of the 7th day?
 
The Traveler

I made a trip to Israel last year (about this time).  I thought it would be a semi-interesting experience.   I did not think the trip to be all that important (for anyone).  I found the experience much more than I ever dreamed.  Like @Jane_Doe – I thought the trip would be somewhat of a farce.  I was aware that Constantine sent his mother to Jerusalem to determine where important Christian events took place.  It was obvious that her trip was more political than rational.  Instead she picked the prominent Pagan shrines and declared them sacred Christian holy places.  
We should also remember that in 73 AD. the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and plowed the ground so that one stone did not remain on top of another – all that was left was below ground foundations and previously berried structures.  Anciently it was very common to build new over the foundations of the old.  What is there today are things built after the Roman destruction.  The oldest stuff is Pagan – followed by some some early Christian modifications – along with stuff from various conquerors down to our present day.
For me some of the highlights:
#1. Seeing Israel for myself and realizing that all the pictures and other references I thought I understood were so very different from the “truth” of being there.
#2. Immersing myself in the geology of the past.  For example, I was taught in my youth the expert art of using a sling (not the twirling around thing but the rapid set and release used in ancient combat).  I took the opportunity to enter the same valley in which David met against Goliath, picked some perfect stones from the same dry river bed where David picked his stones and slung 5 stones at a target about 75 yards away. 
I also visited near the place where Jesus was baptized.  It could not be the same spot because the Jordan river is smaller than the Jordan river in Utah and wanders (changing it wandering path yearly) to the Dead Sea.  But realizing that where Jesus was baptized was in the same area-place where Joshua (The Hebrew name of Jesus) brought the “children” of Israel and where he (Joshua) took them into the Jordan River to be cleansed (baptized) before entering the “promised land”.
So many times, I was touched by the spirit in ways and for things I did not at all expect.  Perhaps the most profound was Gethsemane (not the traditional place near the bottom of the mount of Olives but the place a Latter-day Prophet testified was near where Jesus prayed and took upon him the burden of our sins.
#3.  Talking to Jews in Jerusalem – participating in a bar mitzvah at the western wall.
#4.  Talking to Muslims that have lived in Palestine for many generations.
#5. Learning why it is impossible to purchase a cheeseburger in Israel.
#6. Eating traditional foods (both Islamic and Jewish)
#7. Spending a Sabbath (Saturday) in Israel.
#8. Meeting with the Latter-day Saints that live in Israel.
#9 Ridding on a modern boat of ancient design on Galilee (which is not a sea but a lake about the size of Bear lake in Utah and Idaho.)  I also ate a fish caught in Galilee and prepared in the ancient style (likely like the fish that fed the 5,000).
All in all – my trip was much more and many times over what I expected – Spiritually far more that I could have dreamed.  I would return again and plan to return – I am not so concerned about safety.   I believe I am much safer now than Jesus or the apostles ever were in Jerusalem.
 
The Traveler

#1 - I do not see the disconnect.  In fact, some of the best leadership I've seen are from the 12 year old deacons and their troop activities along with their quorum activities.  Having both a Deacon's quorum presidency that can practice and exhibit leadership and a Patrol leader and others showing leadership has been a great complement to each other in my experience. 
#2 - Fund raising was more limited in the units I've seen.  They are only allowed so much fund raising and typically the LDS church pays the rest.  For example, with Scout Camp this year we are paying around $100 for the boys and the rest comes out of their fundraising. 
I agree, there have been some ill feelings at times with the differences in funds spent on the scouts vs. that of the Young Women.
#3 - No comment.
LDS.org scouting purposes with primary
I see many reasons people give for rejoicing about leaving scouts rather sad.  To me, I wonder how much of a testimony they have in regards to the inspiration our leaders have and the programs they put out.  Scouting has long been an inspired program supported by our Church Leadership.  The reasons for leaving scouts most of the time have nothing to do with the reasons people rejoice about the Church Leaving Scouts.
I personally felt that the church would leave scouts soon after the BSA announced allowing Transgendered individuals for no real reason (no lawsuits really that threatened them, or anything else), but I still supported (and will continue to support the program until the last day of 2019) the Scouting program as directed by our leaders because the program itself currently has some good principles that we can utilize to teach our young Men how to be better young men.  Things like the Current Scout Oath and Scout law teach support for our Church and gospel, patriotism, and concepts such as trustworthiness and Reverence.
However, as the membership has become more populated around the world, programs that extend universally to the church rather than the small segment found in the US has become necessary.  This focus does not just affect Scouting, but Personal Progress for Young Women, Activity Day girls, Faith in God, Duty to God and the entire Youth Program.  In 2020 we will have a new program made for ALL Saints in the world over.  I'm excited by it and look forward to see what is coming out.

There is a lot of history between the LDS church and the BSA.  Some of the history is good and some – not so good.  The big problem I have had is that we LDS do not really operate scout troops.   This is in part because of the vast differences in interests between the ages of 12 and 18 experience in our modern youth.  I will outline just some of the problems I experienced:
#1. The LDS Church wanted to make the scouts an extension of Aaronic priesthood quorums.  The problem is that Aaronic Priesthood quorum presidencies do not operate the same as patrol leaders (in number, operation or organizational purpose) – the organization types are completely incompatible.   Plus, it is difficult (impossible) to implement a patrol method troop in a ward with 5 or fewer deacons.  As a rule, scouts are community focused in their service and deacons are ward focused in their service.  Unfortunately, few LDS priesthood leaders understand the depth of the difference.
#2. Fund raising – In a number of states the Church is under continual scrutiny by distractors that want to remove the tax-exempt status of the Church and tax the Church as a profit-making entity.  In the State of Washington (when I was working with the scouts there) we were not allowed to hold any fundraising on Church property.  This and other problems limited fundraising to operations inside the ward boundary and almost exclusively with members.
In addition, there are ill feelings when the young men have many more $$$$ in funds than the young women.  This became a big problem when I was a scout master and we had activities (paid for through our very successful fundraising) like snowmobiling through Yellowstone Park in winter and horseback wilderness expeditions in summer.
#3 Legal Lability issues between the Church and the BSA.  This is a personal pet peeve of mine.  The BSA forces all LDS members associated with the scouts to sign a legal waver which prevents anyone sewing any BSA official for misconduct – but there is not agree that the BSA will not seek $$$ settlements with serving LDS members for anything the BCS wishes.  I discovered this because I personally do not sign any contracts without an approval from my lawyer.  Our society is far to litigious.
As much as I realize the problems – I am sure communities will be impacted by the Church withdrawing from the BSA.  I feel this is a strategic loss to the “Dark Side” elements gaining positions in our society.
 
The Traveler

Well, I don't know what small backwoods ward you are in but around where I live the scouting program was very strong up until these latest changes. The latest young man in my young men's group who just finished his eagle project did this-
A particular street corner was too sharp and as a consequence large trucks with trailers couldn't make the turn. He had to go to City Hall, get approved, contacted the Rail Road as the corner bordered on the RR line. Then he had to go door to door and speak with businesses and homes effected. Had to line up the right construction equipment and companies willing to donate equipment and supplies. He worked with the surveyors with maps and plans to change the entire corner. When the day approached he blocked off the road, had about 20 youth he was in charge of. All had to wear hard hats and orange safety jackets. Then the construction equipment was unloaded and they ripped up the old asphalt and cement sidewalk. He then oversaw the debris removal by tractors and manual labor from the youth. This too several days. Then he organized another crew to tamp the area down and level it. Then a few days later he ran another crew to set up the concrete forms. The next two days were spent by this same crew laying about thirty feet of new sidewalk and curbing and shaping it. Then the forms were removed and he then had the asphalt poured and leveled. This whole time he had the street blocked off and had another crew as manual laborers to remove old bushes and tree limbs, garbage, etc. The project took about two weeks labor wise. This is pretty typical of the type of LDS eagle projects around where I live as  far as preparation and labor and oversight goes. Here is an actual picture I took of that project-
 

Well, plain and simply- you are wrong. 

Personally, I believe masturbation to be a violation of the Law of Chastity.  Whether that is a sin or not is irrelevant to me.

Do you know what you end up with if you put 25 female pigs in a fenced area with 25 male dear?
Answer – you end up with “50 sows and bucks”.  But you may have to say this (inside the quotation marks) out laude in order to understand why engineers think this is accounting (investment) humor. 
 
The Traveler

My introduction into homosexuality came as a young boy scout.  Then again as a young man in the military during the Vietnam Conflict.  But I was lucky - was watched over and protected.  The result for me was a bitter hatred of sexual predators.  I had firsthand knowledge that there are sexual predators (wolves appearing as sheep) within the ranks of the homosexual community that use free sexual expression (the liberated man and the liberated woman) as a cover for their agenda and that the Boy Scouts and the military were prime targets for predators for reasons that are easy to explain if anyone is interested.  I have come to understand that many supporters of “gay rights” are not predatory but their unwillingness to deal with the full spectrum of abuses in gay relationships is the tall grass providing cover for the apex sexual predators on the Serengeti Plain of human society - now coming to an era of critical dought.
I believe I understand why the Church has remained supportive of the corrupted Boy Scouts – I believe the ripeness of evil only comes with the departure of the righteous.   I am reluctant knowing what will happen to millions of innocent children (both boys and girls) without a righteous guardian watching over them.  I believe that without the physical presents of honorable men that spiritual powers will also withdraw.  And I do not think for a moment that good LDS families will pass through this coming gauntlet unscathed.   And the injustices to those that unknowingly tread the minefields carefully positioned by Satan will be casualties in that great war which began in heaven eons ago.
I do not rejoice – I sorrow greatly.  When something rots from within – seldom is it discovered without harming those that unknowingly trust that humans are initially created loving and kind and should, given the chance, remain so.  It is not those that rejoice in evil that I morn as much as those that think the rot is safe – until they are harmed beyond their ability to recover – only to find those most qualified to assist them have abandoned the rot to “stand in holy places”.
 
The Traveler

With all this fun going on - I was recently in Hawaii and there is a highway called H2O1  - While we are on strange roadside signs; the County garbage transfer station in Utah County (Utah of course) has interior speed limit signs of "13 3/4" Miles Per Hour????  I think these signs are hilarious my wife thinks they are stupid.  But then I think engineers are the world’s smartest people – my wife thinks engineers are stupid.  I think she is biased because she is married to an engineer.
 
The Traveler

I am not sure where you get your ideas from or how you validate them but, if you will, let me explain some simple facts in reality for you.  I am going to assume that you are a Christian.  Also from your post I am going to assume that you have very little scientific background.
If you believe in Jesus Christ – I will purport that Jesus is the only empirical example of a G-d that mankind has ever had.  That any other examples are somewhat removed and exist in speculations and imaginations.  The only empirical example of a G-d is Jesus Christ.  Can you follow this very simple logic?  Is this too complicated for you – too difficult for you to wrap your head around?
Since Jesus is the example of G-d we have empirical proof that G-d was once a man.  This is very important logical fact that all Christians must understand as a critical element on the path designated by Christ when he said, “I am the way”.  Thus, we know the way of G-d is to be a man.  After Jesus was resurrected he ascended into heaven as a G-d.  The promise of scripture is the man will become a “joint heir” with Jesus Christ to be resurrected and ascend into heaven just as Jesus did – meaning as a g-d.
The doctrine to deny that man can ascend into heaven as a joint heir with Christ is anti-Christ and is evidence that the anti-Christ doctrine is perpetrated by false teachers of our day and age.
 
The Traveler

I am not sure where you get your ideas from or how you validate them but, if you will, let me explain some simple facts in reality for you.  I am going to assume that you are a Christian.  Also from your post I am going to assume that you have very little scientific background.
If you believe in Jesus Christ – I will purport that Jesus is the only empirical example of a G-d that mankind has ever had.  That any other examples are somewhat removed and exist in speculations and imaginations.  The only empirical example of a G-d is Jesus Christ.  Can you follow this very simple logic?  Is this too complicated for you – too difficult for you to wrap your head around?
Since Jesus is the example of G-d we have empirical proof that G-d was once a man.  This is very important logical fact that all Christians must understand as a critical element on the path designated by Christ when he said, “I am the way”.  Thus, we know the way of G-d is to be a man.  After Jesus was resurrected he ascended into heaven as a G-d.  The promise of scripture is the man will become a “joint heir” with Jesus Christ to be resurrected and ascend into heaven just as Jesus did – meaning as a g-d.
The doctrine to deny that man can ascend into heaven as a joint heir with Christ is anti-Christ and is evidence that the anti-Christ doctrine is perpetrated by false teachers of our day and age.
 
The Traveler