Traveler

I would like to respond because I am from a long time LDS family (5th generation).  My entire life I was never good enough for my parents.  I could bring home straight “A” and my parents would only say that I should have done better.  My oldest brother is a certified genus with a photographic memory, my father was considered a pillar of the community, my grandmother was the Utah mother of the year and I never measured up.  I was not a rebellious child but I was always in trouble.  I wanted to launch something into outer space – never happened but on several occasions the FBI tracked me down because of my efforts.  I had no name growing up – I was either ____’s son or ____’s brother.
In my youth I competed as a cyclist and skier.  My father was an amateur skier deciding to try it out with his boys and was ranked #1 nationally for over 65.  I am good – even today I am a strong ridder and skier with a local ranking but nothing special – I could be better.
But I have some advice to anyone that thinks being LDS is pressure or stress.  Nothing original – just something from my mission president.  He told me “There is no stress nor pressure unless there is resistance.”   When it comes to our LDS faith – or for that matter anything good:
For those that feel pressure or stress for doing anything good or being involved with anything that is good and right – QUIT RESTING and enjoy the ride.
 
The Traveler

I would point out that there is very little if any possible distinguishable difference between someone that just thinks they are happy from someone that really is only that time alone will manifest.
 
The Traveler

I believe that the real question is how would you recognize Christ in our day and time?  I believe that part of the answer lies in when you will expect him to show up.
 
The Traveler 

The problems of health in this country are not that much of a consideration of eating meat.  Even the most adamant vegetarians realize that there are other more pressing health related eating problems. 
Let me put this another way.  My father use to always say that when seeking advice – seek first from the most successful example you can find.  If someone is interested in health – it is no secret that the greatest health problem is overweight.  A problem that is rooted in a variety of things of which the Word of Wisdom is only a part.
It is my personal point of view that the word of wisdom is more a matter of spiritual discipline than it is physically defined.  I also believe that in most cases where individuals think the Word of Wisdom needs updating – is because the spiritual discipline has never been achieved.
 
The Traveler

What happened??  The Buzzfeed debacle was that a Trump Cabinet nominee was making “secret” connections with Russia in Poland.  As it turns out the alleged nominee was never where the Buzzfeed article claimed to be.  Buzzfeed never checked their sources and validated their story – CNN carried the Buzzfeed story and never really corrected the mistake.  In short the two were caught with their pants down putting forth “false news”.  Trump checked with his cabinet nominee’s passport and he had not left the USA when the alleged meeting took place.  This kind of thing can easily be documented and proven.
Now to the news conference.  When the Trump team announced the news conference they said it would be open seating based on first come first served.  CNN sent a low paid person with official looking placks to save the front row of seats for them.  This put their reporter on the front row to be able to confront the president elect – which was done.
Trump knew this reporter was from CNN and so allowed a different reporter to ask their question – something the CNN reporter was not going to allow.  Thus the confrontation.   Trump ended the confrontation by calling the reporter an advocate of fake news – which reduced him and CNN’s creditable to tabloid hokum.   In essence telling him to sit down and shut up leaving the questions to real news reporters and organizations.  Trump could not have set it up and played it better even had he planned the whole thing and paid the reported to play directly into him.
CNN failed and look bad – I am sure they will try again.  Those that support Trump will enjoy watching CNN make fools of themselves – as will many that see the media as biased.  There is something about the establishment of this country that insist in fighting current battles with obsolete tactics. 
 
The Traveler

What happened??  The Buzzfeed debacle was that a Trump Cabinet nominee was making “secret” connections with Russia in Poland.  As it turns out the alleged nominee was never where the Buzzfeed article claimed to be.  Buzzfeed never checked their sources and validated their story – CNN carried the Buzzfeed story and never really corrected the mistake.  In short the two were caught with their pants down putting forth “false news”.  Trump checked with his cabinet nominee’s passport and he had not left the USA when the alleged meeting took place.  This kind of thing can easily be documented and proven.
Now to the news conference.  When the Trump team announced the news conference they said it would be open seating based on first come first served.  CNN sent a low paid person with official looking placks to save the front row of seats for them.  This put their reporter on the front row to be able to confront the president elect – which was done.
Trump knew this reporter was from CNN and so allowed a different reporter to ask their question – something the CNN reporter was not going to allow.  Thus the confrontation.   Trump ended the confrontation by calling the reporter an advocate of fake news – which reduced him and CNN’s creditable to tabloid hokum.   In essence telling him to sit down and shut up leaving the questions to real news reporters and organizations.  Trump could not have set it up and played it better even had he planned the whole thing and paid the reported to play directly into him.
CNN failed and look bad – I am sure they will try again.  Those that support Trump will enjoy watching CNN make fools of themselves – as will many that see the media as biased.  There is something about the establishment of this country that insist in fighting current battles with obsolete tactics. 
 
The Traveler

What happened??  The Buzzfeed debacle was that a Trump Cabinet nominee was making “secret” connections with Russia in Poland.  As it turns out the alleged nominee was never where the Buzzfeed article claimed to be.  Buzzfeed never checked their sources and validated their story – CNN carried the Buzzfeed story and never really corrected the mistake.  In short the two were caught with their pants down putting forth “false news”.  Trump checked with his cabinet nominee’s passport and he had not left the USA when the alleged meeting took place.  This kind of thing can easily be documented and proven.
Now to the news conference.  When the Trump team announced the news conference they said it would be open seating based on first come first served.  CNN sent a low paid person with official looking placks to save the front row of seats for them.  This put their reporter on the front row to be able to confront the president elect – which was done.
Trump knew this reporter was from CNN and so allowed a different reporter to ask their question – something the CNN reporter was not going to allow.  Thus the confrontation.   Trump ended the confrontation by calling the reporter an advocate of fake news – which reduced him and CNN’s creditable to tabloid hokum.   In essence telling him to sit down and shut up leaving the questions to real news reporters and organizations.  Trump could not have set it up and played it better even had he planned the whole thing and paid the reported to play directly into him.
CNN failed and look bad – I am sure they will try again.  Those that support Trump will enjoy watching CNN make fools of themselves – as will many that see the media as biased.  There is something about the establishment of this country that insist in fighting current battles with obsolete tactics. 
 
The Traveler

Actually we have been evolving for billions of years and the very fact of evolution implies that what we currently think of as a human species will no longer exist in a few hundred thousand years in the future.  Something likely will have evolved from us but this current human pecies likely will no longer exist in the same manner we are today.  It does not matter if someone is religious or scientific – the human species as we now understand it will eventually fade into something else and disappear.  
The elements that define us will continue to exist in some form – the question is what becomes of our intelligence.  Or if you will the ghost in the machine.
 
You and I keep talking about intelligence - we talk in terms of evolution - but there is no way to determine intelligence by size and weight.  The only way to detect or think we detect intelligence is indirectly by how intelligence changes the "natural" course of events.  This is because we define and measure intelligence by such intelligence being able or capable of choice. 
 
The reality is that we have not discovered anything that did not already exist.  What did not exist 100 years ago is a scientist or any other human with intelligence to realize what was not realized at that time.  And just in the last fifty years we have come to realize that with all our science, math, and physics we now know that we only know at best 5% of your universe – the other 95% exist in the same rational you call supernatural. 
What we now know would have been considered supernatural just 100 years ago.  I just do not know why you insist to limit not just your intelligence but the intelligence of all humans .– forever.  Or as the author or 20i01 a Space Odyssey said in essence that any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from the supernatural.  Thus what you say makes no sense to me and I do not understand why you think it intelligent to reject what is called supernatural. 
Is it an unencumbered scientific mind that thinks that dimensions other than our dimensional space time is possible?  How is that any different than a supernatural G-d as you term and define G-d???
What I purport is that without the possibility of G-d thinkers are stuck forever unable to evolve or think of what evolution could become.  As soon as you imagine advance technology you are into the realm of the supernatural and the idea that something more technologically advance than us is not just possible but probable.   And as soon as you take that step then we must consider a step after that and so on – the concept of G-d is nothing less that admitting that the steps of intelligence can continue.  To disprove the possibility of G-d you must prove that the steps will eventually end – and that you have not done or even come close to that.  Yet you seem to admit that the steps, even after billions of years are currently continuing to take place.  What are we becoming if the steps continue?
So where does you unencumbered mind realize where you are going???  What is possible?  A world with life as engineered by some advanced intelligence?
 
The Traveler
 
BTW - I love being LDS and the liberty to think outside the status quo box.

Actually we have been evolving for billions of years and the very fact of evolution implies that what we currently think of as a human species will no longer exist in a few hundred thousand years in the future.  Something likely will have evolved from us but this current human pecies likely will no longer exist in the same manner we are today.  It does not matter if someone is religious or scientific – the human species as we now understand it will eventually fade into something else and disappear.  
The elements that define us will continue to exist in some form – the question is what becomes of our intelligence.  Or if you will the ghost in the machine.
 
You and I keep talking about intelligence - we talk in terms of evolution - but there is no way to determine intelligence by size and weight.  The only way to detect or think we detect intelligence is indirectly by how intelligence changes the "natural" course of events.  This is because we define and measure intelligence by such intelligence being able or capable of choice. 
 
The reality is that we have not discovered anything that did not already exist.  What did not exist 100 years ago is a scientist or any other human with intelligence to realize what was not realized at that time.  And just in the last fifty years we have come to realize that with all our science, math, and physics we now know that we only know at best 5% of your universe – the other 95% exist in the same rational you call supernatural. 
What we now know would have been considered supernatural just 100 years ago.  I just do not know why you insist to limit not just your intelligence but the intelligence of all humans .– forever.  Or as the author or 20i01 a Space Odyssey said in essence that any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from the supernatural.  Thus what you say makes no sense to me and I do not understand why you think it intelligent to reject what is called supernatural. 
Is it an unencumbered scientific mind that thinks that dimensions other than our dimensional space time is possible?  How is that any different than a supernatural G-d as you term and define G-d???
What I purport is that without the possibility of G-d thinkers are stuck forever unable to evolve or think of what evolution could become.  As soon as you imagine advance technology you are into the realm of the supernatural and the idea that something more technologically advance than us is not just possible but probable.   And as soon as you take that step then we must consider a step after that and so on – the concept of G-d is nothing less that admitting that the steps of intelligence can continue.  To disprove the possibility of G-d you must prove that the steps will eventually end – and that you have not done or even come close to that.  Yet you seem to admit that the steps, even after billions of years are currently continuing to take place.  What are we becoming if the steps continue?
So where does you unencumbered mind realize where you are going???  What is possible?  A world with life as engineered by some advanced intelligence?
 
The Traveler
 
BTW - I love being LDS and the liberty to think outside the status quo box.

Behold the insistent, and completely unproven, mantra of the disbeliever. "We are not weighed down by a foolish belief in an unseen being!" This is Korihor's argument in Alma 30, and it can be most convincing to those who don't actually bother to think about it.
Everyone believes things they haven't "proven for themselves." E-v-e-r-y-o-n-e. No exceptions. Perhaps you personally have engaged in number theory enough to prove the consistency of the system you use, and have personally reviewed and proven why Newtonian calculus works, and have personally verified the correctness of the usage of Dirac notation in particle physics, and have both mathematically and observationally verified all of Einstein's gravitational equations.
Oh, wait. No. You haven't. That's ridiculous. You believe people whom you think are authorized to make statements, and you have reason to believe them. So please, do not patronize us any longer with the patently false absurdity that our minds are simply benighted by our silly superstitions.

My father use to say that few people know how to be happy and his example was always finances and weight.  But I will reference weight and health because this is what is going on with this thread.  He would say most people what to be miserable and unhappy.  That either they eat what they want thinking it will make them happy and find out that whey they look on the mirror they are unhappy with how they look.  Or they diet and exercise (things they dislike and makes them unhappy to do) to be able to look in the mirror and be happy.
So most people demand and make themselves unhappy – either because they are unhappy with how they have to eat and exercise or they are unhappy because they are unhealthy and overweight.
According to my father the secret to happiness is learning to love and enjoy the things and discipline that achieve the long term results someone believes to be good.  This is quite different than learning to love and enjoy the very things that bring about the long term that depresses and makes a person miserable.  I personally believe Satan wants us to be miserable and depressed and temps us to believe we can achieve happiness without discipline and doing whatever we want at the moment.
 
The Traveler

My father use to say that few people know how to be happy and his example was always finances and weight.  But I will reference weight and health because this is what is going on with this thread.  He would say most people what to be miserable and unhappy.  That either they eat what they want thinking it will make them happy and find out that whey they look on the mirror they are unhappy with how they look.  Or they diet and exercise (things they dislike and makes them unhappy to do) to be able to look in the mirror and be happy.
So most people demand and make themselves unhappy – either because they are unhappy with how they have to eat and exercise or they are unhappy because they are unhealthy and overweight.
According to my father the secret to happiness is learning to love and enjoy the things and discipline that achieve the long term results someone believes to be good.  This is quite different than learning to love and enjoy the very things that bring about the long term that depresses and makes a person miserable.  I personally believe Satan wants us to be miserable and depressed and temps us to believe we can achieve happiness without discipline and doing whatever we want at the moment.
 
The Traveler

Modern science and simple observation tells you that surgery drinks, fact food, etc are bad for you.  That is good, and should be listened to.  God commanded us to take care of our bodies.  He doesn't need compel us in every little detail therein.  

She is not worshiped. We do not pray to her or through her agency or invoke her name or authority or anything of the sort.
"Henotheism" is a hypertechnical word that is out of place in discussing LDS beliefs. We might as well argue as to whether we received a plethora of piñatas.
 

I have not read all this thread but for the most part – I do not believe this whole storyline. 
First off - not all the choir is going – just selected individuals.  Many that want to go have not been asked – I am not sure from the articles if this lady was really even asked to go.
Secondly – Singing in the choir is a unique calling – those in the choir do not have other callings.  This is a refusal to fulfill a calling – not just asking to be released.  I doubt this lady will ever be allowed to sing with the choir again – or even try out.  It is not just a refusal to fulfill a calling it is demonizing anyone in the choir that respects their calling and desires to serve G-d through a prophetic call.  This person could have declined in a polite and respectful way
The choir has performed at several presidential inaugurations of both political parties.
 
There is something else going on here that is being left out of the published stories.    I do not know what it is – but whatever it is, it does not smell good or sparkle as someone desiring to be Christ like and an example or compassion and kindness.  It looks more like a Pharisee wrapped in the kind of prejudice that believed that if anyone talked to a Samaritan that they were unworthy to enter Synagogue for a week.
 
The Traveler

Anyone that desires something other than becoming a g-d will achieve that which they value more for themselves.  G-d will not and does not force anyone to do what which in their heart they do not desire.
 
The Traveler

For the record I will support you - with whatever it is that you intend to give as your profile when you meet with G-d -- face to face.  But also for the record - I would think it better if you found a better way to discribe yourself before G-d other than telling him you are and forever intend to be uncoperative.  Never-the-less the choice is yours and I will assist you as best I can.
 
The Traveler

Yet I have an intimate LDS acquaintance who was so devastated to find out there was no Santa Claus that she lost her faith for a time, and when she recovered it to some degree, it took a strange form. That the Santa deception is harmless for some, or even for most, doesn't mean it's universally harmless.
I wonder what deep, Godly truths people imagine they're teaching their children with Santa that they could not teach more effectively by telling the truth?

God has counseled with, pleaded with, and commanded us to seek exaltation and eternal life. That is my focus.

I think you have a flawed model of how doctrine is received.

We are told in scripture that Cain coveted Abel’s possessions and that Satan tempted Cain with the notion that he could murder for gain.
I also find it interesting that the Book of Mormon taught that wars could be fought to defend the lives of families and country – but taking the offense and attacking non-military targets was forbidden.  
To this day I struggle with the civilian casualties of WWII in the firebombing of Dresden and the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. 
But the innocent causalities of war are pale in comparison to the unnecessary loss of innocent humanity through abortions.  
 
The Traveler

Although I have heard varying thoughts, my understanding is that Cain became a son of perdition, and one of the main points of a son of perdition is that they maintain the thought, "Glory to oneself", so I can see how a son/daughter of perdition would be one that places "things" more than human life. Cain certainly placed himself above that of his brother's life.
In connection to "human life" I believe the Bible offers compelling evidence that at times principles/laws of the eternities appear to be worth more than "human life" as God commanded a whole civilization to be killed. The Book of Mormon gives possible evidence also highlight Nephi's experience with Laban (although Laban's life appears to have bene forfeit anyway due to Mosaic law at the time, so not sure that counts).
Last statement, I couldn't agree more; although, our political system (and individuals) appear to confuse what is actually a "right".

Some years ago I grew up in Provo.  There I was personally acquainted with professor at BYU that we all know as Hugh Nibley.  Hugh was also my brother’s home teacher.  One principle that he taught – and I am sorry for not providing a reference but he believed a son a perdition was someone that placed a greater value on “things” than for human life.  I have often thought about this opinion when thinking about war and combat.  I have wondered about the idea that there are principles of liberty worth more than human life but I keep coming back to brother Nibley.
Is there anything more valuable than human life?  Many times I have wondered how I would respond to a terrorists willing to deliberately take innocent collateral lives in support of their religious beliefs.  Can I justify killing them for my principles? 
I also struggle with those that for political or personal reason value what they claim are woman rights to be more valuable than obvious innocent human life – especially in what is labeled as late term or particle birth abortions.
 
The Traveler

The parable of the Good Samaritan indicates that someone in a false religion can not only have truth but could have more of it than someone (a Levite and a Priest) in the true religion.
 
The Traveler

This bears repeating, and should be kept in mind by both scientists and religionists.