rameumptom

Let's not forget that many of the old apostles insisted that murderers had to pay for their own salvation - that the atonement did not save them (see Miracle of Forgiveness, for an example). We can clearly see that such teachings do not jibe with the Bible or LDS scripture. Yes, murder is very serious and is not on the same level as shoplifting a candy bar. Jesus taught of the two men, one who owed little and the other owed much. When both were forgiven, the one who owed much was more grateful. As for the levels of heaven being separated, I wonder just how separated they really are. The Telestial has the fulness of the Holy Ghost, but does that mean it cannot have the Father or Son visit? What about God and Jesus descending to our world to see Joseph Smith? The ancient Judeao-Christian text, Ascension of Isaiah, shows Christ emptying himself of glory as he descends through the various levels of heaven, so the individuals in those levels are not affected by his fulness. In connection with this, Alma the Younger, while in his coma (Near Death Experience) representing Spirit Prison, repented and was suddenly in God's presence (Alma 36). He saw God on his throne from afar off (in a Telestial state), and wished he could be close up. I believe that God's throne can be seen from all the kingdoms - they just cannot experience his fulness of glory in the lower kingdoms. As LDS we have a huge tendency to take one or two verses and make our entire gospel out of them, often misinterpreting many of them along the way. Pres Uchtdorf noted on in 2 Nephi 25 that many LDS have misinterpreted over the years: "we are saved by grace after all we can do". Well, according to King Anti-Nephi-Lehi, the only thing the converted Lamanites could do is repent. Understanding the atonement means we cannot delimit God's power, mercy, justice, or love. We like to scare people into keeping commandments, but that is exactly why Jesus condemned the Pharisees. We cannot be sure all the reasons a person commits a sin. We also cannot be sure to what level an individual has repented and believed on Christ's atonement. What I do know is that Christ is willing to forgive me time and time again, as long as I am willing to believe and repent. I therefore must believe that Christ will do the same for all of God's children. I know that if one of my children were to murder someone (even as a Mormon), then fully repent, I would claim that child as my own, allow him/her into my home, etc. If I can do this, who is a feeble mortal, then I believe a perfectly loving Father can do the same. If the Prodigal Son can waste his entire inheritance, fully repent, and gain a place at the Father's table again AS A CHILD and not a servant, then how can I think otherwise?

We do it because God loves torturing certain men, who clearly needed a major attitude adjustment.

And I disagree with Elder McConkie and others who limit the atonement. That is not what the scriptures say. We are not saved nor exalted because of what we do or don't do. We are because of what Christ did. As Pres Uchtdorf said, we are saved by grace. Period. Don't forget that Elder McConkie considered the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms as a form of damnation, almost to the point of making them sound like levels of hell. He was wrong on it, as he was wrong on blacks and the priesthood. I wish we had a rule to toss out most of our GA books that are over 30 years old. Why? Because we do not believe today as they did back then. We've hopefully received more revelation and a better understanding of the gospel since then. I suggest we all read the Conference talks from April. There are 3 or 4 that discuss the atonement. Elder Holland talked about us forever falling into the abyss, and Christ grabs us. We are not grabbing him, he does the rescue. The atonement is greater than the apostles in the 1960s understood. It saved the murderous Lamanites. It saved the murderous Moses. It saved the murderous Saul. It saved the murderous Alma. It saves Hitler, Stalin, and Chairman Mao. Christ offers exaltation to everyone. To the level we repent is the level of our salvation. We receive the amount of salvation we are willing and able to receive. If we are willing to receive 100 percent of salvation, then we receive exaltation through Christ Jesus. To believe anything less is to limit God's power and His love for His children. And if he does not love us with an infinite love, then we may as well just be Calvinists, who believe in a limited atonement, rather than in the near universal atonement that LDS scriptures teach about.

We will have to wait and see what happens with King David and others. However, we have to agree that the atonement of Christ can save and even exalt the murderer who fully repents and changes. Murderers like Cain, who glory in their wickedness, will not be redeemed, simply because they refuse to repent and embrace the atonement of Christ. But David spent years in mortality repenting, and probably many more years in the Spirit World also doing so. Let us remember that not all of Spirit Prison is hell, as many who die without the gospel will go there until they hear and accept the gospel. We do not know how much gospel knowledge that David had. He lived under the Mosaic Law, without a full knowledge of Christ and the atonement. Having closely studied the Book of Mormon, which can bring us closer to God than any other book, I have come to conclude that Christ's atonement is much bigger and greater than we can imagine. It may be that we find that there will even be progression between kingdoms, as individuals repent and become worthy of greater glory - why else would D&C 76 have those in the higher kingdoms go down to minister and teach those in the lower kingdoms?

With the huge concerns stringofcoins has, he should not be getting married until his concerns are resolved. He seems to have women throwing themselves at him, and yet he sees all of them as potential disasters. This seems to be more of an emotional/psychological issue, pushed upon him by his paranoid and angry friends. Stringofcoins, I suggest you go speak with a therapist. Discuss your concerns and weed through them to find which are valid, and which are your unfounded fears. The therapist can help you work through these issues, and teach you what you need to know and do to be a great husband, and to find a great wife, so you can have a great marriage with less chance of divorce.

I worked for a few years in a state prison. I worked among murderers. I knew many who were truly converted to Christ, and never would do any other bad thing. The atonement must be available to the murderer, otherwise how can we be so certain that it applies to any other sin or action? Either it can rescue all of us, or none of us. I think some of the things told us about Spirit Prison may be not fully correct, also. Alma 36 gives us a tale of Spirit Prison as Alma seems to have a Near Death Experience. He sought to destroy souls, not just men's mortal lives (which is worse?). He had to repent, but it took him only 3 days of suffering to get to a point to fully repent. Once done, he was rescued from the pain, and could see God on his throne from a distance. Paul, who knew the same Law of Moses as did King David, went about killing Christians. Yet, he was forgiven. That is the beauty of the atonement of Christ - it is designed to exalt and save a maximum number of people. We are not followers of Calvin's TULIP, which teachings a limited atonement. We believe God offers the maximum salvation to all who will but believe and repent, They then receive the level of salvation which they are ready to receive. After decades of repentance, I believe King David was beyond the barest of salvations in the Telestial Kingdom, and probably was saved in the Celestial Kingdom.

BTW, the atonement DOES account for all sins, even murder. And even for King David. If not, then what did Christ really do for us, and if he is God, why doesn't he have the power to forgive, heal, and exalt?

Elder Kimball viewed things in the concept that we have to earn our way into heaven(s), which is why he talked about a "credit balance". President Uchtdorf's General Conference talk on Grace moves us past that incomplete understanding. Several GAs of the past thought that murderers could not make it above the Telestial, and in particular said this of King David. However, the scriptures do not say anything about this. The scriptures say that Jesus can save and exalt anyone and everyone. Now, a murderer has more change and repentance to do than others. But if he repents and changes himself, there is no reason given in the scriptures for him not to receive a higher kingdom. Note the Lamanites who buried their weapons of war - are they not celestial material? God loves all his children, regardless of what they've done, or who they are. He even wants the murderers and whoremongers to repent and return to Him.

I hate spending money when I don't have to. The Church only has the Spanish Book of Mormon in PDF format, which I hate using on my Kindle. I was able to find a freeware version in EPUB, and so converted it over to MOBI/Kindle format. Free to download here at my Dropbox: Enjoy, Rameumptom

When LDS was primarily a Utah or American Church, it dealt mostly with Christianity. And it did so in a period of time when most Americans were Christian and attended church. Today, we are a global church, teaching millions in areas that do not know Christ. And in those areas once known for being bastions of Christianity (Europe and USA), we find that people are quickly losing their religion, replacing it with materialism and sex. Both evangelicals and Mormons have an increasing need to band together against the evils in today's world. Someone who agrees with you in 80 percent of things is better than the person who agrees with you on only 10 percent. And as the world gets more wicked, we'll see all true Christians banding more and more together.

To share with the bishopric that you are interested and available is a good thing. In some units, bishops struggle to find people willing to do anything. That said, do not be the type who tells the bishop that you will hold your breath until he chooses you. :)

As for modern day "Promised Land", we need look no further than the stakes of Zion. The stakes of Zion and temples are intimately connected, Zion prepares the people to enter into the presence of the Lord, which occurs symbolically (and sometimes literally) in the temple. The BoM noted that those cast out of the Promised Land were "cut off from the Presence of the Lord". Yet, the Nephite Promised Land changed at least 3 times, from Lehi's first landing, to the Land of Nephi, to Zarahemla. The Jaredite Promised Land was further north, and for the Nephites was considered the Land of Desolation, not the Land of Promise. So the Promised Land can be a moving/shifting thing, fully dependent upon whether the people are righteous. Joseph Smith stated that Zion is all of North and South America. I would add that Zion is wherever there is a stake of Zion, whether in Utah, Missouri, Bolivia (where I served my mission), Japan, or Africa. BTW, Spencer Kimball DID say that Bolivia was in the center of the BoM lands - but he was sharing his opinion as one who believed in the Hemispheric Model for the Book of Mormon.

BTW, you are saying you "cannot" get married, when you should be saying you "won't" get married. Big difference. There are no solutions for you, because you are not willing to take the risks that go with marriage or any big venture in life. Divorce is not harder on the man in most cases. My wife was devastated in her first marriage - it is usually the man who is unfaithful and abusive, not the woman. He tried screwing her over several times in and out of the courts, threatening her (and after she married me, threatening me), and trying to get out of paying child support. My wife could have decided that all men were heels, but she trusted the Lord could find her a good guy, and He brought her and me together. We're celebrating 29 years in a couple months, and look forward to an eternity together. Stop with the excuses on how not to get married. Accept that there are risks, and quit blaming women. I would guess that in at least a few instances, your male friends were just as guilty in causing their divorces, but you are only hearing one side of the story. Grow up, trust God, focus on eternal things, and then find someone. If her parents are happily married for decades, it is a good chance you can be too with her.

Sounds like an excuse to not accept some responsibility and risk. The most important things in life require sacrifice and risk. Marriage is tough, but if both are willing to work on it, it is great. And not all women (or men) are cheating on their spouses. That seems like an excuse to maintain bachelorhood. I suggest you and your friends humble yourselves, listen to the prophets, and then start actually looking for righteous women to marry in the temple for eternity. Then make it an eternal marriage.

Maybe not for this Sunday, but ask him to give you a list of things he's interested in or would someday like - so you have a list of ideas for Christmas, birthdays, Father's Day, or just as a surprise. But, if he likes movies, plays, symphony, sports, bands, etc., you can buy tickets to take him. You can also just take him to the water park, a museum, etc.

PC, you clearly look at all God's children as His children. You do not identify yourself as anything else than a friend to those of other faiths or beliefs, even when beliefs differ. You serve God in the prisons and in society. I think you have found the correct identity for yourself and those around you.

I care about individuals. I care that they find their true identity as children of God, and not embrace a counterfeit identity. That said, people have agency to choose for themselves, whether to act or be acted upon. The day will come when all of the philosophies and lifestyles of men will come crashing down, and when the mighty and proud are humbled, they will acknowledge their true nature and hopefully reject the false stories Satan has enticed them with.

I think he was saying that different truths are of varying levels of importance. Truths can also be interpreted differently. Are we interpreting what the BoM says from our own perspective, or from the perspective of Nephi or Joseph Smith? Or God? World views differ depending on how a person defines her world. For me, Zion and "Promised Land" are all of North and South America, because that is what Joseph Smith told us.

After years of looking at the evidence, I'm convinced that the central story of the Book of Mormon occurred in Mesoamerica. There are several key things missing for it to have happened in North America (not to mention it pushes millions of Jaredites up into Canada). That said, I'm convinced that Hagoth and others traveled northwards and elsewhere and affected the peoples already there. Having studied Incan stories, I know there is a connection. However, I do not see enough internal BoM requirements present to believe that the Nephites lived in the Andes or Brazil. More likely one of the following two things occurred: 1) there were other Israelites that came over, and/or 2) Nephite traders and travelers intermingled with other groups.

Anatess, I've seen those commercials. My thought was: it is very tough growing up in today's world. Here we have two selfish men that are thinking about their own wants/needs, rather than being there for their kids. One of the problems with counterfeit identities, is that we end up choosing them for selfish reasons. As children of God, we look at others as equals and worth receiving all the blessings we hope to receive.

In the classic Superman movie series (Superman 3), starring Christopher Reeve, we find that Superman is contaminated by some Kryptonite. In an interesting scene, the evil Superman lands in an auto junkyard, screams, and then has his alter-ego, Clark Kent, emerge. The two duke it out, until the real Man of Steel, his true identity, wins. Today, we find people struggling with their true identities. Bruce Jenner is now Caitlyn. Rachel Dolezal insists she is African American, though her white parents dispute it. Some have green hair, multiple piercings and tattooes. Others may find their identity in their sexuality, drug use, religion, education, wealth, possessions, ethnicity, etc. Many are coming forth to distinguish themselves from everyone else Facebook, Twitter and other online services help people come forth to say, “Here I am! Look at ME!” Sadly, such focus on certain temporal particulars of ourselves actually cause us to lose our fully authentic selves. The Book of Mormon actually talks of a time when the people knew their true selves: And it came to pass that there was no contention in the land, because of the love of God which did dwell in the hearts of the people. And there were no envyings, nor strifes, nor tumults, nor whoredoms, nor lyings, nor murders, nor any manner of lasciviousness; and surely there could not be a happierpeople among all the people who had been created by the hand of God.. There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were inone, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God. (4 Nephi 1:15-17) We see that the people did not distinguish themselves. They were not Nephites nor Lamanites, but found their true, secret identity: “children of Christ and heirs to the kingdom of God” Satan wins when he divides us. The divisions come when he confuses us over what our true identity is. The Book of Mormon continually notes fine clothing as a sign of division, as we later see in 4 Nephi: And now, in this two hundred and first year there began to be among them those who were lifted up in pride, such as the wearing of costly apparel, and all manner of fine pearls, and of the fine things of the world. And from that time forth they did have their goods and their substance no more common among them. And they began to be divided into classes; and they began to build up churches unto themselves to get gain, and began to deny the true church of Christ. (4 Nephi 1:24-26). No longer equals as children of God, they sought out their own ways. As Elder L. Tom Perry noted in General Conference, We want our voice to be heard against all of the counterfeit and alternative lifestyles that try to replace the family organization that God Himself established. Elder Perry explained that the family organization is an eternal and important component of who we really are. To look at just one small part of who we possibly may be and to make it the center of our devotion to self, is to listen to the soothing lies of Satan, who is glad to give us the philosophies of men with some scripture mingled in. Because of our culture of wrong identity, we see an America that is shrinking in its belief in Christ and goodness. Even as with the apostate Nephites in 4 Nephi, many of the sins of their day are now becoming commonplace and accepted, even preferred. And it came to pass that they who rejected the gospel were called Lamanites, and Lemuelites, and Ishmaelites; and they did not dwindle in unbelief, but they did wilfully rebel against the gospel of Christ; and they did teach their children that they should not believe, even as their fathers, from the beginning, did dwindle….And it came to pass that two hundred and forty and four years had passed away, and thus were the affairs of the people. And the more wicked part of the people did wax strong, and became exceedingly more numerous than were the people of God….And it came to pass that the robbers of Gadianton did spread over all the face of the land; and there were none that were righteous save it were the disciples of Jesus. And gold and silver did they lay up in store in abundance, and did traffic in all manner of traffic. (4 Nephi 1:38-46)Suddenly, we see that big business and wealth replaced charity and oneness. As they grew wicked, the law of God and the knowledge of being God’s children were replaced once again by envyings, strifes, tumults, whoredoms, lyings, murders, and any manner of lasciviousness (sexuality). Marriage is diminished as people use no-fault divorce, live together, or change God’s pattern for something else. God’s plan of consecration and providing for the poor is offended by those who enrich themselves in false government programs that maintain a war on poverty that only grows the numbers of poor. God’s love for his children and His desire for them to be like him are twisted by Satan’s counterfeit claims of radical freedom: justifying alternative lifestyles, dishonesty, and contention. It isn’t something new. Satan confused Cain into declaring himself unique: And Cain said: Truly I am Mahan, the master of this great secret, that I may murder and get gain. Wherefore Cain was called Master Mahan, and he gloried in his wickedness. And Cain went into the field, and Cain talked with Abel, his brother. And it came to pass that while they were in the field, Cain rose up against Abel, his brother, and slew him. And Cain gloried in that which he had done, saying: I am free; surely the flocks of my brother falleth into my hands. (Moses 5:31-33) How many of us proclaim ourselves free of God, by taking up our own counterfeit identity? And we see if increasing in America. Satan is currently winning the battle of the hearts of men, so that “even the elect are deceived” in some cases. Rather than encouraging alternative lifestyles, we should be encouraging all to reveal their true secret identity: children of God and heirs of his kingdom.

With Vort, I am also a strong believer in evolution and an old earth. The Bible does not require a young earth, nor does it require that there be no evolution. It only requires that there was an Adam and Eve. Even then, it does not require that the are the DNA ancestors of all mankind, just the spiritual/cultural ancestors of all people, just as Lehi is the cultural ancestor of all modern Indians in the Americas. Both Mormons and Evangelicals (along with all Christians) tend to add layers of requirements onto the religion that do not need to be there. Nowhere in the Bible or LDS scripture does it require us to believe that God is a Trinity or a Godhead. These are additions we add. The scriptures only require us to believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost - without defining what those persons are necessarily like. Yes, the D&C tells us about physical bodies, but we still do not know what that means entirely. Our minds cannot comprehend what a glorified physical or spiritual body really is like. So our brains fill in details, whether they are correct or not. While knowledge is important, I truly do not think God cares one way or the other if we know he is 3 persons in one God, or 3 persons in one Godhead. Regardless of which one is more correct, our understanding still falls very short of what/who God is. As mentioned in a talk in General Conference, a person was angry with another person who did something terribly wrong and so complained to the Lord. The Spirit whispered to the complainer: "From where I stand, you two look pretty much the same." From where God stands, Trinity and Godhead are both lacking in a fullness of understanding and knowing God.

I've written some training modules for classes I've taught, both university level and for groups. While I have several books, including some on finance in the works, nothing is out quite yet.

In every group of great cops, there will be a few bad ones. Sadly, those are often the ones that get all the attention, sucking the air and attention out of the room for the good cops. We need to work to support the good cops, while protecting citizens against the bad ones, who use their shield and weapon as a reason to bully and break laws. I spent 4 years in the USAF as a cop, and saw both types. One of my supervisors spent 6 months in jail (along with a dozen others) for using their power and authority to create a theft ring around base. Not easy to enter into the desk and see your old supervisor sitting there.

I'm a libertarian, and so do not care whether a person chooses to change his gender or not. That said, I do not believe that Jenner really wanted to be a woman. Instead, The Vanity Fair front cover proves she really wanted to be Kim Kardashian. Bruce Jenner could not get attention as a man, so she is now seeking attention as a KK impersonator.