Misshalfway

Mrs. Young says the church is evolving. Well, in a sense I hope it is. The city of Enoch figured it out. I mean the true lessons of love and the conquering of fear. If what she suggests is that we as a people are moving in that direction, then I'm all for it. However, all eternal progression must obey eternal law. We can't truly progress unless we do that too. And that means the laws of obedience and sacrifice right along with all the commandments about love and charity. I don't know what all the answers are. What I do know is that in general we humans aren't very good to each other. Especially when we see others doing/being something different. And then PC says its appropriate to judge and to warm. I don't disagree...its just that I don't know much about judging other people. I know I do it and I know it usually resembles stepping in poo. As far as I can tell, the answers aren't in making allowances for behavior the Lord has forbidden. In my view, if we are truly learning the lessons of love and truly loving the children of men in spite of all the "sin", then we have no need to compromise. We'll be hitting the mark. At the end of the day, I think that is what people are trying to accomplish. Not sure any of these arguments or the remarks of Mrs. Young are hitting the target.

I quoted awesome Fin here because you said that this post captured your feelings pretty closely. It sounds to me like your problem isn't intellectual compatibility at all. I think your problem is disconnection. And that you and your wife don't know how to find it in the deeply satisfying ways you are longing for. For the record, I don't think you are selfish for really liking intellectual conversations. And I don't blame you for longing to share it with your sweetheart. Who wouldn't want to share something like that? I don't think you are any different than the rest of us. We all want to experience deeply satisfying connection with someone who sees and understands us just as we are. And when we don't get it hurts. We feel isolated and alone, and often hopeless. And its confusing!! and so the brain tries to make sense of it by coming up with some explanation like "we must not be intellectually compatible." This is a common enough thing. People all the time say "We are not intellectually, emotionally, or sexually compatible." Problem is, they haven't gotten to the core issues yet. I love that Fin is driven to find patterns and that he thrills at finding the core issue of something. If this is you too, then you have everything you need to solve this problem. It might be helpful if you could get a copy of Susan Johnson's book "Hold Me Tight". I've found her work very helpful. She talks about the new emerging science of love (attachment), the patterns that originate from attachment style that cause disconnection, and the way to reverse the negative cycles into patterns of connection and synchronicity. And there is no need for either spouse to change who or what they are. The only thing that is required is an exploration of the primary emotions that drive the negative attachment patterns, and the willingness to be vulnerable to show them to your partner, and the willingness to be there for your partner when she shows hers to you. It's not work for the feint of heart, but it is work that is incredibly satisfying because it gets to the heart of the matter. Literally and figuratively. :) Good luck, dear fellow. May your love of and comfort with the intellectual not keep you from your lessons in this wonderful opportunity of yours. May the Lord broaden your view and expand your abilities.

I might be getting this wrong, but it sounds to me like there might be a contest of sorts in your mind concerning what church is right....or maybe its just a right fight between what your parents believe and what you want to believe. And it sounds to me like you've got more fear than doubt. "What if...?" I wonder what it would be like for you to perhaps reorganize how you view testimony building. I get it that the question about what church is true is an important one. It's certainly one of the fundamental questions that the LDS church originates from. But at the end of the day it isn't about a church at all. The church is just an earthly tool God uses to get His work done. All truth works like light. It fills the darkness without separations or borders. As far as I can tell, both churches believe in gifts of the spirit. Sounds like both have it pretty right, at least on that score. But even that isn't the most important thing. It's really about relationship with the Godhead. It's really about Jesus Christ. If you hitch your star to that wagon, the only question after is "Where do you want me to go, dear Lord?" In this headspace, there is no need for a right fight. There is only room for love and the decisions love would dictate. And if you are loving, there isn't much room (or need) for fear.

Four score and 20 lbs ago, I was asking the same question. I wanted to make the best decision about who I'd marry. I cared about it more than just about anything else. Of course, I came by that naive determination honestly. My church, my leaders, my parents, my friends, BYU culture, and lots of church videos....all put loads of pressure to marry the "right" person and to get it right the first time!!! But...you know what? There are just no guarantee's. All of us just do the best we can. Hopefully, we go into such a decision knowing ourselves and being able to discern the situation. Because I think we all know we can't trust the LDS resume. And of course we have prayer and temple and spirit to help. But no one, not even God can stop a person's agency. So...we do the best we can. We listen to our hearts and maybe more importantly, we listen to our guts. And then we leap! What happens next can't be predicted. Unless of course God gives you some prophesy. I got some of that. Cute weird eyebrow boy asked me to marry him. God showed me I'd be divorced with two kids in just a few years. I said no and broke the kids heart. Best decision I ever made. But then again, I married the man Father led me to. And its been the hardest relationship of my life. Sadly, I'm not so naive or trusting anymore. But that doesn't mean I have learned loads and that I'm not completely better for it. I'm grateful in so many ways for my painful life. At the end of the day, it's all about faith. Faith in God. The rest is a crap shoot.

Except that all the men would just fall asleep. But...if it had a baby changing table, I could get behind it.

Situations like this ARE hard! It is absolutely confusing when you are trying to love someone who is out of control. It's hard to know the difference between loving support and controlling the uncontrollable. I sometimes get irritated with advice, even from mental health providers, that shame the partner for getting confused by all of it.....as if they wouldn't get confused if it were them. Sounds like you are trying to balance his feelings and needs, and your feelings and needs, and that it just isn't working. It's like you are splinched. I don't think it's bad advice to instruct you to not get angry at him when he confesses or when he does something right, but I do sympathize with the plight of having no reciprocal support so your anger and frustrations are given equal support. When you've got addiction AND NPD, holy smokes! You've got someone who is really unavailable! And probably insanely manipulative. And this leaves you in a hard place because you are left to hold up the person and the relationship and the family....and hold yourself up too! Remember the power of detachment. When we detach emotionally and psychologically, we can be the most loving. It's a higher law and harder to do, but much more healthy. We can take care of ourselves with boundaries, getting needs met, and overall coping. AND we can love the other person without getting swept away by their "stuff". It means more loneliness though, and that's just hard. I wish I had a better cure for that. But then we must go to sources who are available to us, like God and friends and self. When you find yourself in confusion, most likely you've lost your balance on this. You'll feel more clarity when you can get centered again. And you'll relax into more peace when you allow your boundaries to do the work for you. Then the anger will calm down because you aren't stuck in controlling traps. It sounds like this question about whether or not to tell others "the secret" is tripping you up. I can't know what is in the best interest for you. If you let go of controlling outcomes for your husband, it does mean you'll have to deal with some of the fall out. Perhaps this wouldn't be good for you. But what I do know is that controlling outcomes is a trap. Peace comes with letting go. Perhaps its time for you to stop saving your husband from his consequences. Maybe that could be the most loving thing....although I couldn't speak to exactly how that might look in terms of choices.

I don't know if its true or not. But it wouldn't surprise me if people got "swept away" by the new policy and perhaps rushed a decision that needed more preparation.

You must not like Socrates. I actually appreciated and even needed the conversation led by the Grandfather.

Yesterday I read a book. It's called "The Peacegiver" by James Ferrel. My assumption is that many of you have read the book and that again, I am late to the party. But I don't care. The book found me at the exact right moment that I was ready for it. I wish I could explain its impact on my heart, mind, and soul. I don't know if such is possible. Perhaps such understanding can only be between me and God. But I'll say this.... I think I became a Christian today. (breath.)

I saw the Iceman interview a couple of years ago. Truthfully, I felt compassion for the man.......well, not the man who knew better, but the boy who suffered and who didn't know to make other choices. In these cases, I think I get a sense of how it should go, but then opt out of the judgment quickly. I think that only a God could discern a case like this. I also really love that learning continues on in the afterlife. And that God finds a way to compensate our losses. Of course, that promise is according to faithfulness. And perhaps this man has lost his inclination towards faithfulness, but I don't suppose behavior alone can testify of that. If it isn't all dead inside of him, perhaps there is hope.

If you are worried about the state of your home, then clean it up a bit. Do it, not to impress, but to honor yourself or to stand in self respect. I usually hate it when my VTers come and my dishes aren't done or my laundry is still strewn about on the couch. When I clean it up, I feel better and more inclined to welcome people into my space. But don't try to be too perfect either. Be yourself and let the imperfection be ok. The other morning my VTers came to the door. I'd completely forgotten they were coming. I hadn't showered and still had the mascara smudges under my eyes from the day before. My dishes weren't done and neither was the laundry. And I'm pretty sure there was a buggar my son had whipped on the wall in the entry way. My VTers couldn't have cared less. They came, they laughed with me, and left me feeling loved and accepted. And it was a good exercise for me to work on self acceptance too. If you want to offer a cookie or something, then do it. But do it in a state of relaxation and fun. Not to meet some social expectation. Most of us just visit in a more casual way. We come to love you. Not to be entertained.

I love the letter! It's a beautiful way to begin living in truth again.

I would absolutely agree with you, PC. In my work with sexual addiction (I use the term loosely because I see all sexual sin as addictive in nature...well perhaps all sin is addictive. :)), I see the idolatry and its heartbreaking to witness. It's a from of slavery like a moth that must fly towards the light. It's obviously a blindness and a delusion but not so obvious to the one caught in the tractor beam. And the delusion starts at the moment of indulgence. It's what gives Satan his access point. It's a delusion about where and how to get comfort, and where and how to achieve happiness. And then, dismay! Because the sensation never lasts! And so they have to keep going back to get more. And in order to go back, they have to lie to themselves. They have to deny their conscience and put to sleep their knowing. And slowly the sensitivities to spirit start to die and the attachment to something hollow and dead endures.

Hi Matt. It's nice to meet you. I appreciate your story...and you plight. Listen to Just_A_Guy. He knows what he is talking about. Going at this thing head on....that is wisdom. And it's love. Love for yourself, and love for those whom you may love some day. Remember that Satan will do anything to keep you from Christ. And he usually does it with lots of lies about how God will be disappointed in you or by seducing you with fear about how embarrassed you'll be or how unsympathetic your bishop feels. Be strong enough to see through the seduction and deception of those messages. They are traps!! Instead of allowing yourself to be fooled, gather your courage and your faith and your trust in God the Father and in his Son Jesus, even if you don't understand all things about them yet. Trust that they understand and they are filled with mercy, grace, and wisdom. Trust that they know Satan's game and they will untangle you from it. Trust that they love you in such immeasurable ways. And trust that your sins can't disqualify you from that. Yes, you will feel some discomfort but it will be temporary. In fact, you'll probably say what Just_A_Guy did. "Why did I wait?" Go. Go to you bishop. Not the old one. The one you have now. Don't try so hard to dodge the discomfort. That's all porn is anyway....a big giant dodge! Go and find your sweet refreshment. It's there waiting for you.

I'm so sorry this is happening to you. It must hurt in the most excruciating ways. If it were me, I'd be just like you....one day wanting to walk and the next fighting to save the marriage. Only for me... I'd add wanting husband to hang by his toenails for a few hours each Tuesday! Or...maybe just saying I do. :) Beyond that, you sound like you've got your head about you. You understand that this is his deal and that his behaviors are his responsibility. You know that it doesn't matter how hard your fight. I feel a deep respect and honoring that you can find that centeredness through all the pain and confusion. And I love that you still have fight for your desires to be in a relationship with someone you trust and who adores you. You worry that you are self-centered. Yes, I can understand that too. But I'm not seeing it. I think you are doing great. And it is such a mess when you are a stay at home mom. You choose this sacrifice from the best within you! But when the support system fails, you find yourself faced hard choices. It's something that fuels some anger in me. It sounds like it might in you too. Perhaps that anger can work for your good. Perhaps it can help you find power to do the harder things while the rest of you works to heal the wounds. It's also hard when you know there's a strong probability that your husband will act out again. Knowing this doesn't mean you don't have faith in the Atonement. Knowing this means you are able to discern. Stay in that place! Trust your instincts! You clearly have strengths and gifts working for you. The Godhead and your specially appointed angels will help you stay in clarity if you remember to focus yourself into faith and trust. Remember also to keep your faith in the Lord when it comes to you, your needs, and the giant dilemma before you. Your needs are known. As you exercise your faith and trust, you will feel the support on your right hand and on your left. Father will lead you by the hand. He will show where to put your next footstep. Remember it's like manna. He only gives the nourishment and guidance sufficient for the day. Discipline yourself to submit to these conditions. You will find in time that all your needs will be taken care of. This stuff is easy for God. Remember that when the load feels to heavy to bare. My heart goes to you. To you, and to all others who find themselves in similar circumstances. Earth life and dealing with other imperfect humans and all their painful choices is just plain hard! And it's unfair! And some days, it just hurts too much! To you I wish all the supports from heaven and earth combined. And then I say stand up and go forward in faith. All is well. All was well before and all will be well now. All is well because you understand it! You can do this, little sister! And you won't be alone.

I'm so sorry this is happening to you. You must have been so hurt when you found out he did it again! And then to find out that his feelings for you aren't what you thought....it must feel like a freight train has just barreled through your whole being! I'm not sure of the best advise in situations like this. But one thing I do know is that you can't control him. I suppose you could second guess the decision to kick him out or try now all the "nice" ways of negotiations. I don't know that anything would have changed your husband's course. He sounds confused. And he sounds like a man who has fallen into a trap like so many before him. He is denying his responsibilities while indulging his pain and justifying his behaviors. As painful as this situation is, its not about you sweetheart, and you can't change him. So don't waste your time with beating yourself up or feeling guilt or taking his responsibility on yourself. None of that is loving and it just makes a more crazy. So if you can't control him, what can you do? My best answer for the short term is to nurture yourself. You did just experience a monstrous trauma. So treat yourself like you would if you'd been in a car accident. When trauma like this happens, our insides go into survival protection mode. Our anger is alerted, as is our fear. And if we aren't careful, we'll get reactive. Such is completely normal and understandable. But it tends to make things more painful for everyone. Instead of all that, see if you can slow it down. Just breath. Tune in your inner self and just see if you can hear the pain...not react to it...just hear it the same way you'd do with one of your babies. Then take care of yourself. Whether it's taking some time off or writing in a journal or talking out the pain in a therapy session, find a way to hear what you need and then give yourself that thing. Don't give your husband the responsibility to do this right now. He's not available. So don't rely on that. It's time to lean on the Godhead, Heavenly Mother, your angels and your earthly supports. This situation will demand your patience and increased tolerance and strength. But right now it might be too soon to work on that. Right now just recover a bit so you can ground yourself and then be able to make the decisions that are in your best interest. Blessings and soothing and support to you.

On the first question... No. And it's not necessary. My guess is that a question like this originates in trying to dodge or cheat the vulnerability to ease ones conscience without having to do the work of repentance or rebellion. One could certainly "opt out" either by open declaration, decision, or neglect, but one can't opt out of consequences. Covenant making and keeping is serious business. You can't undo the making of the covenant. You can only experience the consequences in either direction. On the second... It would be respectful not the take the sacrament. But without a covenant, it's just a piece of bread. What would be the motivation of someone taking the sacrament in this way? And why the question? Do you really think this is a big problem in the church? Excommunicated members demanding to take the sacrament? Non members have taken the sacrament before. On my bench it was my 5 yr old.

In regards to the question "Is there a better way to tithe?", I'd have to say...take it up with God. It was His idea.

I like that!! :)

Sounds like you've had some yucky experiences.

You've touched on one of my pet peeves. I hate it when we equate forgiveness with staying in a relationship. And I hate it when we equate forgiveness with trust. I can forgive someone for a variety of wrongs but that doesn't mean I trust them. It doesn't mean I share my money or my feelings or my bed with them. It just means I let go of the grievance and I move on. For heavens sake, I can forgive and still say no! This situation is so hard. LDS theology and all the human attitudes that go with it makes pragmatic life decisions difficult. But, you just gotta know that no LDS bishop will ever recommend divorce. So if you are looking for the institution to give you permission, you aren't going to get it. A few years ago, I thought seriously about divorce. I prayed hard and went to various priesthood leaders looking for counsel that would set me free from what felt like an impossible situation. Most of my interviews were unsatisfying. I got similar answers about forgiveness and was often judged rather than supported. It was a very discouraging process. But I'm actually glad that Bishop didn't solve the thing for me. I needed to learn not to give others the responsibility for solving my problems for me. I also learned that God wasn't going to do my work for me either. Dang it! He did answer. But to my dismay he didn't command either way. He gave the decision back to me offering comfort that he would support me either way according to what I thought was best. I panicked at first and frankly I was kinda angry at Him for not clarifying either way. I was like "really?!? the most powerful being in the universe who can see all time can't tell me what's best for me?!? Outrage!" The truth was, I didn't want the responsibility of such a weighty decision and I was trapped by my feelings of guilt and fear. Of course, I wasn't going to admit to that. Blaming everyone was much easier. You sound like a good woman who wants to do the right thing, and one who also wants a satisfying marriage too! But it sounds like you haven't figured out how to take responsibility for your own happiness and safety yet. You've tried everything you know how in order to produce some change. You've sought counsel, you've confronted the dysfunction, and my guess is that somewhere in a secret place inside of you, you hoped your husband would see the severity of your sufferings and that it would compel him to save the situation. None of it worked, did it? I couldn't know what the right decision is. But I do know that earth life rarely goes right and for many of us the road through it is a nasty, curvy beast! God knows this. Yeah, He cares about marriage and commitment and all that. But I think he cares about the safety and happiness of his little girls too. (and the little boys. ) Make a decision and then trust yourself, sweetheart. You know inside what is best. I know you do! And in that trust, take it to God and see what he says. Then take up your sword, or flag, or girl power, or whatever metaphor works for you and follow through. If you are lucky enough to get a command, then your next step is the courage to follow it. If God allows you the choice, your next step is the courage to make one. :) At the end of the day, we have to act in our own best self interest. This is the essence of agency. We can't wait for others to do it for us. Sometimes people save us and boy we're grateful. But sometimes we just have to do the saving ourselves. Blessings and strength to you.

Hello! Welcome! Sounds like you are in the middle of very exciting things. It can be overwhelming to join the church. I've been a member my whole life. I don't spose I'll ever really be able to know what its like. Sounds like you are excited. Makes me smile. Oh...and happy birthday! You are a quarter of a century old! What a benchmark. Hope you enjoy the forums.

I like the word "sufficient". My knowing is sufficient. Seems to fit wherever I am on the continuum between not knowing and perfect knowledge.

Amen. Maybe even an A-freakin-men. I don't care what words you use. If you come into my life and love me and help me bare my burdens and help me see truth and build me up when I do dumb stuff and forgive me when I really blow it -- I'll know Christ. If you practice sacrifice and obedience and diligence and repentance. If you are honest and humble and real. The light will radiate out of you. You won't be able to stop it. You won't be able to hide it under a bushel! And you'll have so much love inside of you, that you won't see me as a leper the way the rest of the world does. What's more "christian" than that? All the piety can float on down the river, if you ask me.

Oh yes, Pam. Dearie me. Not sure how that happened.