DigitalShadow

No, my wife has told me and everyone at my church has told me, but that's expected of them since they have been taught to believe since birth. I'm still waiting for god to tell ME the truth though.

You taking your child aside and saying they have to go to the dentist OR ELSE doesn't take away her free will any more than God sternly telling us he exists would. It's not like God had any second thoughts about wiping out the whole world's population except for 2 people in the Old Testament when he sent the great flood. He was fine with sending plagues to teach the egyptians lessons when they opressed Moses' people. Why does He worry about taking away free will by making his existance known now?

What are they denying? They are simply believing what they have been taught to believe since they are young, just like you. If they knew the "truth" but were simply denying it, why would they die for their cause? Wouldn't the thought of ending it all and sending yourself to hell snap someone out of simple denial?

I have not made up my mind, I was simply stating what I find as the most likely scenario. You see emptiness and despair, but I see the opportunity to define for yourself what your purpose is and how you search for the truth. What is to prevent you from ending your life? Nothing, in fact some people do just that. Why fight to live? Because living is what you know, beyond that is unknown and life is all you have. Many people live their lives with similar theories to mine except with more certainty. They don't run amuck or instantly kill themselves or become a slave to their lust any more than you do. I don't see how feeling emptiness is a sign of something being not true though. The truth is sometimes unpleasant, but that doesn't change the truth.

I'm not asking for writing in the sky or even anything that goes through my 5 senses, at this point I'd settle for God whispering in my mind, "I do exist and the Mormons have it right"

I would settle for a simple "I'm here, I care about you and you're on the right path" from God.

That is my point exactly. Your child is skeptical so you take a different path and directly tell her what to do for her own good. If God is the eternal father, why would he not take the same simple actions and be more stern with his skeptical children?

I believe if there is a God he created the entire universe and on the countless other planets where life evolved, it evolved differently and the dominant species probably looks nothing like us but instead is adapted to its own environment. To believe that we are special in the universe and we are the only species on this planet that matters and so naturally God made US in his own image is an attractive thought, but ultimately only fullfilling our own arrogance and need to be special.

If you honestly believe that you are killing hundreds of people to save millions, are you really acting against a conscience? If honestly you believe God told you to kill people to carry out his vengence, is it acting against a conscience? Most people think that all people who commit attrocities know they are doing "evil" and are simply following a lust for power. I'm sure that is the case for some of them, but in the case of the religious fanatic, they honestly believe they are doing the right thing wherever the voice in their head leads them and that is what makes them dangerous. Do you think the terrorists that died in the 9/11 attack had any remorse for what they did? They believed it was the right thing so strongly that they died for the cause.

The only thing that pulls me away from atheism is that I believe it is just as arrogant to say you KNOW there is no God as it is to say you KNOW there is a God. Neither positions are supported by evidence from my point of view. If I were to make a case for God, it would be that I have no idea why the universe exists and why there seem to be a set of rules governing it. I'd say it is possible there is an ultimate rule keeper and creator somewhere, but I'd say it is unlikely that he is interfering with our daily affairs or created us in his own image.

Yes, assuming that is the pure word of God, it is pretty clear. Unfortunately I haven't seen or felt anything to justify that it is the word of God any more than another script claiming to be the word of God. When I read it I feel the same as if I were reading mythology. I don't have a believing heart, I am a skeptic at heart, does that make me any less of a child of God? Does God only care about the naive? If God made me, He made me skeptical and all, why hasn't He left anything for His skeptical children? No, I'm simply not willing to submit to anything claiming to be "God's program" without evidence of some kind, any kind. You have your evidence, along with everyone who has a testimony, but I haven't felt anything from God. If God really cared about me and He is omnipotent He would give some form of response since it takes no effort for him but would mean the world to me. You can say I'm just not hearing the response or some such nonsense but since God is omnipotent, I reckon he would know exactly what I would be able to hear. Again, I never said I wanted proof, I simply want some form of evidence, is that so much to ask? You say he knows some people won't believe him out of faith, then why did a perfect God create such an imperfect system? Why not make his presence known for each generation and find out which people are the disobedient ones rather than just discriminating against the skeptical ones that are simply using the gifts they were given to discern what makes sense.

Saying your particular scripts are the "word" of God is just another unsubstantiated claim among many. Apparently I am able to "overcome Satan" alone, because I've never felt the slightest external force to do "evil" deeds and I've never had faith in any particular religion. I think anyone that knows me in real life would consider me a moral individual. Apparently not "every man" has the ability to know right and wrong because some people pray and believe God tells them to kill in His name. Very few people committing attrocities believe they are doing the wrong thing. Not everything is black and white and why couldn't a cunning "Devil" make a "bad" thought sound like a "good" one? I think "Satan" is simply a convenient justification for bad thoughts. No one wants to believe that they themself are capable of "evil" thoughts if they occur so they convince themselves that these "evil" thoughts are all from an external source, when really they're probably just repressed emotions.

It's quite simple. If I do something that affects other people in a negative way it is "wrong", if I do something that affects other people in a positive way it is "good". How do I determine negative and positive? Well it is different for everyone but I use how I would feel if it happened to me as a guide.

If both "God" and "The Devil" can obviously use feelings to convince us to follow certain paths, how do you know it wasn't simply "The Devil" giving you feelings that you are doing the right thing while in reality God wanted you to join a different religion and you'll now be sent to Hell because you bet everything on a feeling that could have come from either source? If this "Devil" character is really as sneaky as you say, don't you think he would have thought of that? I'm not saying this to be mean or sarcastic, I'm genuinely curious about this. I've never felt an external force guiding my choices. Not all my choices have been good, but I take responsibility for the bad ones along with the good ones. Comining the two statements of "doing evil" and to "believe not in Christ" in one question doesn't make any sense. There are people who don't do evil and don't believe in Christ and there are also people who do horrendous evil and do believe in Christ. So I will answer them seperately. Can you think of some times where you have been "persuaded to do evil"? I consider intentionally and maliciously doing something you know will harm another person as evil. I've never done anything I would consider as evil in that sense. Not to say everything I've done has been perfectly good, but I would not say anything I've done has gone so far as "evil." Can you think of some times where you have been "persuaded to believe not in Christ? My parents were Unitarian Universalist and even then mostly went to church for social reasons. They encouraged me to think for myself especially on matters of religion. I bring this up because I would simply say that I've never been persuaded TO believe in Christ, not that I have some external force persuading me NOT TO believe in Christ.

I find it more likely that God exists than some form of "Devil". But assuming such a being exists, how do we know it is not "The Devil" speaking to us through our feelings impersonating God, and God is the one attempting to get us to see reason with logic and with the brains He gave us? That would explain all the killing and destruction that takes place in God's name.

I certainly don't discount the possibility, but I wouldn't say I "believe" at the moment though. Again, I think there's a possibility for it. I think that if God were omnipotent and decided to communicate with his children, he wouldn't have so much trouble getting the message across so I tend to think he doesn't since there is so much confusion in the world over God's will. Once again, I would have to say it is entirely possible that if God were to communicate with people someone would write it down.

I may not know you personally, but I have come to respect your opinion on matters from the insight of your posts. Honestly, so far it has been kind of dry reading, I get a little tired of "And so it came to pass" all the time. I mean, I know it is not meant to be a literary masterpeice but starting sentences with a little more variety couldn't hurt . Other than that I haven't felt anything yet but I'm only maybe 10% done so far. The story seems interesting. I did watch "Journey of Faith" with my wife recently to go along with where we are in the story and help visualize it a little more. I'll keep you posted on my reactions as we read on if you want. In my experience, feelings of right and wrong usually come from the upbringing. For instance I have a catholic friend who feels guilt when eating meat on friday. I have never felt bad about it, so I just attribute it to his parents drilling beliefs into his head when he was young. Lessons learned when you are young and impressionable often stick around as "intuition" later even if you can't tell directly where the feeling is coming from. Just a personal philosophy, my dad is a scientist, maybe it made an impression on me :)

True True True Now I think we are getting somewhere :)

Because God is not talking to me, and furthermore if he only communicates with feelings, how do I distinguish God talking to me from a delusion of God talking to me, which a lot of people obviously suffer from since they can't all be right. You say only God can tell me how to distinguish Him from a delusion but He can only communicate with me in ways that seem like a delusion. Do you see my dilemma here? Am I the only one that sees a problem with this? I do not fault you for anything or asking you to "prove" anything, I'm just trying to make sense of everything. And blindly believing something is true or false does not make it true or false either. I am aware of all that. How about: 5 And by the power of [your own logic and obvservation] ye may know the truth of [many] things. I like that one better. I'm still waiting for any kind of divine contact, so until then I "discuss, discuss, discuss"

I believe that is just an urban legend, and the people who do that were simply denying their birth religion out of a rebellious nature while deep down "knowing" that it was the "truth." I was never indoctrinated into a religion at a young age so I find it highly unlikely that will be the case for me or many other atheists I know. Your myth goes along with the "no atheists in foxholes" myth which I find rather offensive, and there are actually very few things that I find offensive.

Well I think He failed on that one since there are many people who followed their feelings and committed attrocities in the name of God. They honestly felt that God told them to do such things, why would God allow that to happen if feelings are the only way to "communicate" with him? How can I trust such an unreliable source? Things which are not seen which are true... yet there are so many things that are not seen, how is one to decide what is true? Everyone tells me to look within, but there are billions of people who look within and see different answers. I find it far more likely that they simply find what they want to find rather than all of them tapping into some universal truth. I've received the same warning from nearly every other religion though. You say that it is a test, but I say that if it is a test, the only logical answer would be not to assume He is communicating with you since so many other people are led astray by those assumptions. I'm not trying to "cheat" the system with wordsmithing or justification, I'm just honestly looking for answers the best way I know how. I'm doing what I feel is right, that is what I always do. It is not in my nature to simply accept things without question, I find that in general true things stand up to questioning quite well. I'm still waiting for God's answers, as much as I try, I feel nothing. I do thank you for your time though. Even if I can't find soul-deep answers here as you say, I can discuss with intelligent people that have different opinions which gives good opportunity for learning.

If the only way for me to find God is through feelings, then I will have to remain without Him until I die and find out for myself if there is nothingness or some kind of God to welcome me with open arms. I simply can't justify to myself unyielding faith based only on feelings when I see so many of my fellow man misled by the very same kind of feelings. I've come to realize that I won't receive certainty or faith from this forum or anywhere else, but I still enjoy discussing the subjects and seeing other people's viewpoints on religion and faith.

I would really like to believe I have a spirit inside me, it's a pleasant thought, but honestly I would have to say that I think probably not. I think that most likely what we know as consciousness is simply our own unique neural pattern in our brain. Why do I think such a depressing thought? If personality and memories and emotions were really more than just in our brains, you wouldn't be able to see such dramatic difference when part of the brain dies. If emotions really came from our immortal soul, they wouldn't be affected by horomones. Yes, I have a conscience and ultimately I think it originates in logical thought. I can tell what is right and what is wrong by examining the consequences of my actions, if it affects people negatively it is wrong. It's really quite simple. I sincerely hope you are right.

I find this statement fascinating. From my point of view it sounds more like religion is the "garbled message from the imperfections and pride of men" rather than science. How else do you explain the multitude of religions all arrogant enough to say that they know the one truth? How else can you explain all the killing that has taken place in God's name? Obviously not all people claiming to have knowledge from the "perfect source of truth" are correct and have garbled the original message (if there even was one) with their own pride and desire to know the one truth. It boggles my mind how people can blatantly disregard science (not just a few theories, but the practice of science in general) in favor of divine feelings because they don't want to think they might be wrong. Science is not the practice of pride, individual scientists may be prideful and flawed, but science itself claims to know nothing and only seeks to better understand the world. Religion is the one full of pride claiming to know all the answers and to have received them directly from the allmighty meaning they are unquestionable. You think "well it's ok because we really did get our answers from God." Yeah, that's what they all say, forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical.

Thanks, I'll keep waiting for that day.