Search the Community

Showing results for tags 'the miracle of forgiveness'.

  • Search By Tags

    Type tags separated by commas.
  • Search By Author

Content Type


Forums

  • Third Hour Popular Forums
    • Third Hour Admin Alerts
    • LDS Gospel Discussion
    • General Discussion
    • Learn about The Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints
    • Current Events
    • Advice Board
  • Gospel Boards
    • Jewish Beliefs Board
    • Christian Beliefs Board
    • Organizations
    • Study Boards
  • General Discussion Forums
    • Parenting
    • Interests
    • Just for Fun
  • Resources
    • Family
    • Missionary Work
    • Family History
    • Preparedness
    • Share
    • LDS Resources and Information
  • International Forums

Find results in...

Find results that contain...


Date Created

  • Start

    End


Last Updated

  • Start

    End


Filter by number of...

Joined

  • Start

    End


Group


AIM


MSN


Website URL


ICQ


Yahoo


Jabber


Skype


Location


Interests


Religion

Found 1 result

  1. A Gospel that Crushes? Good day to you. I’ve introduced myself in several forums on this website already, and I’m glad to be a part of this community. If we haven’t “met” yet, hello! I’m a middle aged, seeker who has been praying for and thinking through LDS views since I was visited by missionaries 10 years ago during my college years. In between raising a family and working, my time to devote has to be balanced; but I have read the BoM through completely, prayed and sought God, and continue to attend church. I’ve recently joined these forums to have some questions answered. Most recently, I stumbled across the book, “The Miracle of Forgiveness” by the Apostle/Prophet Spencer Kimball, and felt like I ought to read it. It has pressed me greatly on the nature of the gospel, but I’m just not sure in a good way; hence, this post. I’ve really tried to keep this as brief as a I can; but I obviously failed so to respect your time, here’s this post summed in the form of a question, “Does the LDS gospel crush your spirit?” If you want to know where I’m coming from, read on. I. Apostle’s Authority: First off, what about the author? Can I trust him, or was he in error when it comes to the gospel? From my limited understanding, Spencer Kimball was an apostle under Harold B. Lee, and became the 12thpresident of the LDS church. As an apostle at the time of writing “The Miracle of Forgiveness,” he was a member of the highest levels of the church with some of the highest authority (under the prophet of course). It is my understanding that apostles and prophets can even be considered to voice scripture at general conferences and in their writings on the LDS website? From this I take it that one better heed what an apostle/prophet has to say. However, some have told me that these men are just that, fallible men. I’m sympathetic to that, for even the prophets of the OT had moral struggles (e.g. Moses and anger). No one is perfect except Christ indeed. So a crucial question then, how does one know if an apostle or prophet is speaking doctrine or just as a man? Well, I asked this community and they suggested two tests: Scripture consistency, and the Law of multiple witnesses. This is helpful, and what’s more, seems to suggest that the press I feel from Kimball in his book is all the more valid. In other words, what he says regarding the gospel is trustworthy. Consider the two tests; briefly: 1. Scripture – Kimball offers a copious amount of scripture for some of his main points indicating scriptural support and consistency (see section II); and, 2. Law of multiple witnesses – a quick Google search lead me to find that this book was affirmed often by both active apostles and prophets throughout the several decades it was in print (e.g. Richard G Scott in the 1995 and 2004 General Conference, the Seventy Bruce Hafen, prophet Thomas Monson in his work “On the Lord’s Errand” written in 1985, Apostle Richard Evans in 1970, and the Apostle Boyd Packer in Ensign Magazine in 1974). The book, moreover, apparently sold over 1.6 million copies and was recommended by some church manuals (i.e. Teachings of the president of the church,”). It seems, from my cursory Google searching on LDS, that this book meets multiple witnesses. Moreover, when an apostle speaks to something as central as the gospel, if would seem dangerous for an apostle to speak in error. If an apostle where to err on something so foundational as the gospel, think of the ramifications! II. A Gospel that Crushes? If the author is trustworthy, then we can turn to the content of the work, “The Miracle of Forgiveness,” itself. I read this book in the course of a week and a half and afterwards, felt that my soul was deeply crushed. If what Kimball says about the gospel is true, then it seems to me that no one can be saved (see Kimball’s four points below). Below is what I take to be central points that Kimball makes, with scriptural affirmations, about how forgiveness is bestowed. a). In order to be saved, one must keep the commandments; that is, faith alone is not enough. Kimball quotes the following passages: 2 Nephi 25:23, “… for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do,” 3 Nephi 27:19-20, “…therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end,” Romans 2:6, “will render to every man according to his deeds,” and, Romans 2:13, “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” He summarizes: “However good a person’s works, he could not be saved had Jesus not died for his and everyone else’s sins. And however powerful the saving grace of Christ, it brings exaltation to no man who does no comply with the works of the gospel,” (p. 207). b). God never issues a commandment that cannot be kept; that is, every commandment in scripture is possible to be followed by humanity. Kimball quotes the following passages: Matthew 5:48, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect,” 1 Nephi 3:7, “And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.” Kimball notes, “But to carry the analogy further, my bull, had he been human, might have disciplined himself. Then with no right in the nose he would have controlled his own actions. So it is with human sin – self-control, self-mastery, can be substituted for the domain of sin, and the sinner can move by his own agency toward God rather than under the control of sin toward Satan,” (p. 28). Further, “While changing one’s life from evil to good is admittedly not easy, we cannot emphasize too strongly that every person endowed with normal faculties can do it,” (p. 175). c). One cannot be forgiven without true repentance; that is, if one does not keep a commandment they must repent. Kimball quotes the following passages: Moroni 10:32, “32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.”, 2 Nephi 25:23 (as aforementioned), and, “Alma 11:37, “37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” Kimball notes,“In my years since then I have repeatedly heard people praise the Lord for his mercy in having forgiven the adulteress (in reference to Matthew 7:7). This example has been used numerous times to show how easily one can be forgiven of gross sin. But did the Lord forgave the woman? Could he forgive her? There seems to be no evidence of forgiveness. His command to her was, ‘Go, and sin no more.’ He was directing the sinful woman to go her way, abandon her evil life, commit no more sin, transform her life. He was saying, Go, woman and start your repentance,” (p. 165). He concludes, “To every forgiveness there is a condition. The plaster must be as wide as the sore. The fasting, the prayers, the humility must be equal to or greater than the sin. There must be a broken heart and a contrite spirit. There must be ‘sackcloth and ashes.’ There must be tears and genuine change of heart. There must be conviction of the sin, abandonment of the evil, confession of the error to properly constituted authorizes of the Lord … there must be a new consecration and devotion to the living of all the laws of God. In short, there must be an overcoming of self, of sin, and of the world,” (p. 353). d). True repentance does not allow for repeated sin but forsaking that sin; that is, if a sin must be forsaken again (a second, third, fourth time) then the sin by definition was never utterly forsaken in the first place. True repentance means not repeating the sin. Kimball quotes John 8:11, “… go, and sin no more,” D&C 82:7, “7 And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God,” and, D&C 58:43, “43 By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.” Kimball notes, “In other words, it is not real repentance until one has abandoned the error of his way and started on a new path,” (p. 163). He continues, “Old sins return, says the Lord in his modern revelations. Many people either do not know this or they conveniently forget it … Each previously forgiven sin is added to the new one and the whole gets to be a heavy load. Thus when a man has made up his mind to change his life, there must be no turning back. Any reversal, even in a small degree, is greatly to his detriment,” (p. 169, 170). He insists, “Discontinuance of sin must be permanent. The will to do must be strong and kept strengthened,” (p. 176). Remember, “Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. HE would never require anything from his children which was not fro their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal,” (p. 209). Finally, “’Yes,’ I said, ‘but we are commanded to be supermen. Said the Lord, ‘Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.’ (Matt. 5:48) We are gods in embryo, and the Lord demands perfection of us,’” (p. 286). Sum: If salvation necessarily requires human collaboration in keeping the commands of God, if those commandments are truly follow-able by humanity via their will, if one cannot be forgiven without repenting when one fails to keep a commandment, and if true repentance means forsaking sin and never returning, then this gospel crushes. Just reflect on your own life for a moment; I grantee you haven’t done this. The mere presence of just one “habitual” or “frequent” sin cancels out your repentance and places the whole of your sin back on you. Kimball notes that humanity has been given the possible condition (keep commands) with allowance of repentance once, then never to return. Yet, in human experience, this is impossible and places a burden of effort so high that is too heavy to carry. It seems to me that this is the very reason why Christ came to die for us, for alone he was perfect and alone he is our rescue. We couldn’t do it. III. Making it Personal If this is all correct, then how am I (and you?) doing with this understanding of the gospel? There seems to be only three options available in response: a). “I’m not doing what Kimball says” – in that case, you are not forgiven and lost in your sin. b). “I am doing what Kimball says: – this seem ludicrous given the sheer breadth of potential sins of omission and commission, and depth of our fallen state. Are you really free from forgetting tithing, missing meetings, breaking the Sabbath, failing in family prayer, breaking the Word of Wisdom, lust of the mind and eyes, cursing, serving in the church, angry outbursts, hatred and frustration with those that disagree with you, selfishness and pride? As the saying goes, no one is perfect except Christ. c). “I’m kind of doing what Kimball says” – this is a catchall category. Statements like, “I’m doing the best I can, “I’m trying,” etc. I get this answer more than those who deeply want to follow Christ. However, Kimball has a lot to say to this in his book, and none of it is sympathetic. i. I’m trying – Kimball says, “One Church member of my acquaintance said, as she drank her coffee: ‘The Lord knows my heart is right and that I have good intentions, and that I will someday get the strength to quit.’ But will one receive eternal life on the basis of his good intentions? Can one enter a country, receive a scholastic degree, and so on, on the strength of good intent unsupported by appropriate action? Samuel Johnson remarked that ‘hell is paved with good intentions.’ The Lord will not translate one’s good hopes and desires and intentions into works. Each of us must dot that for himself,” (p. 8). And, “Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin. To try with a weakness of attitude and effort is to assure failure in the face of Satan’s strong counteracting efforts. What is needed is resolute action. A story will perhaps illustrate this. An army officer called a solider to him and ordered him to take a message to another officer. The solider saluted and said, ‘I’ll try, sir! I’ll try!’ To this the officer responded: ‘I don’t what you tor try, I want you to deliver this message.’ The solider, somewhat embarrassed, now replied: ‘I’ll do the best I can, sir.’ At this the officer, now disgusted, rejoined with some vigor: ‘I don’t want you to try and I don’t want you do ‘do the best you can.’ I want you to deliver this message.’ Now the young solider, straightening to his full height, approached the mater magnificently, as he thought, when he saluted again and said: ‘I’ll do it or die, sir.’ To this the now irate officer responded: ‘I don’t want you to die, and I don’t want you merely to do the best you can, and I don’t want you to try. Now, the request is a reasonable one; the message is important; the distance is not far; you are able-bodied; you can do what I have ordered. Now get out of here and accomplish your mission,’” (p. 164). Finally, “But adults, who have gone through these learning periods, must determine what they will do, then proceed to do it. To ‘try’ is weak. To ‘do the best I can’ is not strong. We must always do better than we can,” (p. 164-65). ii. I can do it later in the afterlife – Kimball, “It is true that repentance is always worth while. But spirit world repentance cannot recompense for that which could and should have been done on earth,” (p. 315). He also cites Alma 34:32-35. iii. Baptism and membership cover me – Kimball notes, “Numerous members of the Church will be disappointed. All will fail of these blessings who fail to live worthy lives, even though the temple ordinances have been done for them,” (p. 246). Why is this? He continues, “Remember this: exaltation is available only to righteous members of the Church of Jesus Christ; only to those who accept the gospel; only to those who have their endowments in holy temples of God and have been sealed for eternity and who then continue to live righteously throughout their lives,” (246). His entire first chapter deals with this point of view, specifically pages 7-14. iv. God is gracious and will forgive me (despite what Kimball has said about this) – Kimball says, “The Lord’s program is unchangeable. His laws are immutable. They will not be modified. Your opinion or mine does not alter the laws. Many in the world, and even some in the Church, seem to think that eventually the Lord will be merciful and give them the unearned blessing. But the Lord cannot be merciful at the expense of justice,” (p. 249). And, “There are many people who seem to rely solely on the Lord’s mercy rather that on accomplishing their own repentance. One woman rather flippantly said, ‘The Lord knows my intents and that I’d like to give up my bad habits. He will understand and forgive me.’ But the scriptures will not bear this out. The Lord may temper justice with mercy, but he will never supplant it. Mercy can never replace justice. God is merciful, but he is also just,” (p. 358). Finally, “Your Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the requirements, but that forgiveness is not granted merely for asking. There must be works – many works – and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and a ‘broken heart and contrite spirit.’ It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when,” (p. 324-25). IV. Sum: So, now you know where I’m coming from. Maybe you feel crushed too from all of the works and requirements asked of you just to be saved. So, to sum, I ask, “Does the LDS crush your spirit?” Because I think there is a better understanding of salvation, and that is simply that Jesus paid for your sins on the cross because you couldn’t do it yourself. And that is a gift to you, and it is a gift that will transform your soul and make you want to follow Jesus like you, perhaps, you never have before. Sincerely, Tele