Works required for Christ's grace?


tiancum
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how do you interpret this?

Does the lord require something of us before we are "saved"?

[Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven./QUOTE]

I am sure we are all in agreement that we are saved by grace. At what point does grace kick in...?

-confessing his name is a work, just as much as any other commandment.

-can a person confess Christ's name, but give no effort to follow him after his "saving moment" and fall from grace?

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Guest tomk

Works and Grace have always been designed to function together from the beginning. It is man's interpretation that skews them into a "either / or" dichotomy which was actually never taught and never sanctioned by the Lord.

One of the VERY BEST explanations of works and grace is found in this book:

Amazon.com: Believing Christ the Parable of the Bicycle and Other Good News: Stephen E. Robinson: Books

also by the same author:

Amazon.com: Following Christ: The Parable of the Divers and More Good News: Stephen E. Robinson: Books

CS Lewis describes "Faith and Works" as two blades of the same pair of scissors, working in complete harmony.

It is faith in Christ that motivates us to "do the things we've seen Him do" -- or in other words -- keep His commandments. As we do so, during our doing of the "works" -- THAT is when GRACE comes into play. For as we go about "doing good" unto others -- we lack the real POWER and KNOWLEDGE that we need to see it through. GRACE is the giving of God's power unto man -- such that we can actually DO the works He asks us to do and HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE required to do it just as He would do it. Grace allows us to be His proxy!!!!

Without grace -- our works may be "good" but they won't be GREAT.

Without works -- the catalyst that is GRACE cannot be "activated"

Our works don't EARN the manfestation of GRACE. A gift is still a gift. All we do is qualify.

That is the best I can do right now. The books do a much better job.

Hope this helps,

Tom

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Love it, Tom. For me, the more I learn about Grace, the harder it is for me to identify where grace doesn't apply. I find the grace of God to be more than just the act of raising me from my sins. I find it to be woven throughout the entire gospel and inside of every step I take in applying the gospel in my life.

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The Relationship between Grace and Works

The topic of grace and works has the possibility of eternal consequences. It is timely and worthy of our attention and interest. It is fundamental to many other teachings of the gospel and thus is worthy of our study, research, and pondering.

In searching for materials on this subject, I checked under the entry "grace" in the index to Church periodicals for 1961-83. I was dumbfounded to find just five articles listed. Three were from the Church News. The fourth article, a general conference talk by Elder Mark E. Petersen titled "We Believe in Being Honest," 1 was not related directly to the topic of grace and works. The fifth article, the only one in Church periodicals in twenty-three years to specifically address the topic, was very good. Written by Gerald N. Lund, it was titled "Salvation: By Grace or by Works?" 2 I commend it highly.

In doing further research, I discovered the text of a masterful discourse, "What Think Ye of Salvation by Grace?" by Elder Bruce R. McConkie, given at a Brigham Young University devotional on January 10, 1984. 3 I urge you to read and ponder the entire talk.

In his talk, Elder McConkie referred to the teaching of salvation by grace and faith alone as the second great heresy of "a now fallen and decadent Christianity." He identified the first and chief heresy as the false doctrine introduced by Catholic Christianity that God is "no longer a personal Father, no longer a personage of tabernacle, [but] an incomprehensible three-in-one spirit essence that filled the immensity of space." 4

He described the second heresy as "the doctrine that we are justified by faith alone, without the works of the law. It is the doctrine that we are saved by grace alone, without works. It is the doctrine that we may be born again simply by confessing the Lord Jesus with our lips while we continue to live in our sins." 5 Elder McConkie referred to this false teaching as "one of the great religious phenomena of the ages, one that is now sweeping through Protestant Christianity." 6

Those of us who have been in the front lines of missionary service in recent years know how extensively the Protestants are using this heresy against the true Church. Some of the first challenges against the Church in this dispensation concerned the reality of the First Vision and whether the Book of Mormon could actually be the word of God. Later the attack was against the practice of polygamy and, still later, the denial of priesthood privileges to blacks. More recently the attacks have centered on the place of women in the Church—specifically, the position of the Church on the Equal Rights Amendment and the question of giving the priesthood to women.

Certainly one of the major charges apostate Christianity and some of the groups of ex-Mormons bring against the true Church today is that neither the Church nor its members are Christian. The supposed evidence brought against us is that we must not believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ because we do not believe man is saved by grace alone; rather, we say that works are also necessary.

Hundreds of statements against the doctrinal position of the Church on this subject could be produced, but maybe a summary of one letter will suffice. Understand that its author is bitterly opposed to the message of the Restoration. Statements such as "Mormonism is not of God" and "The only instances in which the Book of Mormon is right are those where it borrows phrases from the Bible, God's word" indicate how the author feels.

The parts of this letter that caught my eye, however, are those that imply that we are unchristian. For example, "The Book of Mormon and all of Mormonism denies the gospel message that 'it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God; not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.'" This, of course, is from Ephesians 2:8-9 in the Jerusalem Bible. The author continues: "Good works are not prerequisite to salvation but rather are the result of our being saved: 'For we are his [God's] workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.'" This appears to be a paraphrase of Ephesians 2:10. Finally, the author cites Romans 11:6 in the Revised Standard Version by stating: "Paul makes it clear that salvation cannot be on the basis of both grace and works. It is an either/or situation: 'But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.'"

This letter pinpoints the problem inherent in our topic as viewed by our Protestant friends. In using the word problem, I am well aware of statements by present leaders that we don't have problems in the Church; rather, we have challenges and opportunities. Therefore, the word problem is not used to reflect our understanding of the topic. I really believe that any member of the Church who has read the scriptures, especially the new editions with their accompanying chapter headings and footnotes, and who has attended meetings and classes and listened attentively should not have any serious problem with the subject of grace and works. Those outside the Church, however, think we have a problem with this subject, and it is from their viewpoint that I use the word problem. Actually, it is their problem, not ours.

References:

1. See Mark E. Petersen, in Conference Report, April 1982, 18-22; see also Mark E. Petersen, "'We Believe in Being Honest,'" Ensign, May 1982, 14-16.

2. See Gerald N. Lund, "Salvation: By Grace or by Works?" Ensign, April 1981, 17-23.

3. Bruce R. McConkie, "What Think Ye of Salvation by Grace?" in Brigham Young University 1983-84 Fireside and Devotional Speeches (Provo, Utah: University Publications, 1984), 44-50.

4. Ibid., 44.

5. Ibid., 45.

6. Ibid., 44.

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"Its exponents liken man's quest for eternal glory to climbing a flight of endless stairs. By mastering one more eternal principle, or conquering one more weakness of the flesh, the heaven-bent pilgrim mounts a new stair.

This analogy has merit, and suggests the vast and seemingly limitless possibilities for growth open to every mortal, as he pursues his quest for eternal glory. The analogy, however, as it stands, is deficient. It does not give sufficient recognition to the doctrine of grace. The analogy suggests that once man has found the endless staircase (which staircase presumably represents the Plan of Salvation), he becomes, thereafter, the means of his own salvation. Salvation becomes a matter of exerting the effort required to climb the stairs. In such a concept, our Heavenly Father's role becomes essentially that of an omniscient instructor, who is eternally urging His children to exert the effort to ascend to greater heights. This concept, however, fails to give full force and effect to the atoning Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

If we must cling to the stairway analogy, we should modify it to include a huge and unbridgeable chasm somewhere along the stairs' upward course. When man reaches that chasm, he cannot cross it without aid. All the wisdom, righteousness, and brilliance of performance which mortal man may marshal in his own cause cannot transport him across the empty void ahead. Finite powers stand in helplessness before this impasse in infinity.

The Third Article of Faith reads: "We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel." In our analogy, obedience becomes the effort by which we ascend the endless stairs; it is the Atonement of Christ which carries us across the otherwise unbridgeable chasm. No mortal man has ever earned this Atonement for anything which he has done. It is not a stipend. It is not a reward. It is a gift of love beyond price. It is the grace of God.

To the above qualification to the stairway analogy we add another. Man may, from time to time, find himself without the strength to keep climbing; he also may become confused and find himself in danger of falling. But he has been told that he may ask for help. When that help comes, it is a gift or an outpouring of grace.":D

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Hi Tiancum....I do not know if one would consider the following two verses below from Moroni as Grace for works.

Perhaps if one thinks of it this way...it would it would help remove the confusion.

<>. Grace of God for sinners....is time given them to repent of their sins before wraths comes because of justice.

<>.Grace of God for the righteous....is the ability of GOD the Father to see us again as Little Children.

Moroni 10:32 - Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

Moroni 10:33 - And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

Peace be unto you

bert10

how do you interpret this?

Does the lord require something of us before we are "saved"?

[Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven./QUOTE]

I am sure we are all in agreement that we are saved by grace. At what point does grace kick in...?

-confessing his name is a work, just as much as any other commandment.

-can a person confess Christ's name, but give no effort to follow him after his "saving moment" and fall from grace?

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Guest tomk

Love it, Tom. For me, the more I learn about Grace, the harder it is for me to identify where grace doesn't apply. I find the grace of God to be more than just the act of raising me from my sins. I find it to be woven throughout the entire gospel and inside of every step I take in applying the gospel in my life.

Agreed.

The "real magic" happens when you STOP worrying about the "letter of the law" so much -- and just LET IT BE WHAT IT IS.

God is good, God is kind, God is merciful. He is anxious and willing to bless us. We're family.

He probably wishes we'd stop worrying so much about DEFINITIONS and just enjoy the Father / Child relationship!

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Guest tomk

"Its exponents liken man's quest for eternal glory to climbing a flight of endless stairs. By mastering one more eternal principle, or conquering one more weakness of the flesh, the heaven-bent pilgrim mounts a new stair.

This analogy has merit, and suggests the vast and seemingly limitless possibilities for growth open to every mortal, as he pursues his quest for eternal glory. The analogy, however, as it stands, is deficient. It does not give sufficient recognition to the doctrine of grace. The analogy suggests that once man has found the endless staircase (which staircase presumably represents the Plan of Salvation), he becomes, thereafter, the means of his own salvation. Salvation becomes a matter of exerting the effort required to climb the stairs. In such a concept, our Heavenly Father's role becomes essentially that of an omniscient instructor, who is eternally urging His children to exert the effort to ascend to greater heights. This concept, however, fails to give full force and effect to the atoning Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

WE IMMERSE OURSELVES IN IT - WE DON'T PICK IT APART. OKAY, NOW I AM DOING WORKS. OKAY, THAT WAS GRACE. NO WAIT A MINUTE, I WAS WRONG, THAT WAS WORKS. OOPS, I CONFUSED WORKS FOR GRACE AGAIN!!!!

SUCH A NOTION IS LAUGHABLE.

If we must cling to the stairway analogy, we should modify it to include a huge and unbridgeable chasm somewhere along the stairs' upward course. When man reaches that chasm, he cannot cross it without aid. All the wisdom, righteousness, and brilliance of performance which mortal man may marshal in his own cause cannot transport him across the empty void ahead. Finite powers stand in helplessness before this impasse in infinity.

AND WHEN WE CROSS THAT CHASM THROUGH GOD'S GRACE -- HAVE WE NOW SOMEHOW EARNED OUR REWARD?

OF COURSE NOT!!!!!

AND HAD WE NOT WALKED UP TO THE EDGE (our "token" effort) COULD WE HAVE RECEIVED GRACE? NO, WE HAD TO DO SOMETHING. BUT THAT "SOMETHING" WE DID NEVER "EARNED" ANYTHING. GRACE IS STILL A GIFT!!!

The Third Article of Faith reads: "We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel." In our analogy, obedience becomes the effort by which we ascend the endless stairs; it is the Atonement of Christ which carries us across the otherwise unbridgeable chasm. No mortal man has ever earned this Atonement for anything which he has done. It is not a stipend. It is not a reward. It is a gift of love beyond price. It is the grace of God.

To the above qualification to the stairway analogy we add another. Man may, from time to time, find himself without the strength to keep climbing; he also may become confused and find himself in danger of falling. But he has been told that he may ask for help. When that help comes, it is a gift or an outpouring of grace.":D

LOVED IT.

THANKS HEMI.

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What we did earn is passage to the glory of Heaven and being resurrected. However, we did not earn to get to the Celestial Kingdom since it requires our WORKS through various ordinances and our other necessary personal works to ensure we can obtain it.

We do not need to be baptized, received the Holy Spirit, be married, temple work, and so forth to receive anything less than the Celestial Glory....:)

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Miss half way, that is a bit simplistic, please expand...

I don't spose I could expand better than the other posters. Such good explanations. :)

Plus, i don't think anyone was saying we earned anything. It is very different than the Father requiring something of us, which he does.

I didn't mean to imply that anyone was saying this. Just meant to concur. :)

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  • 2 months later...

Are you saved by Grace or works? Well the question is complicated, so let me break it down for you. You can read the ‘Preach My Gospel’ book, if you don’t have one, you can download it here: Preach My Gospel go to Lesson 2 on book page: 47, PDF page: 61. The Plan of Salvation, or what sometimes is called The Plan of Happiness. There isn’t just a Heaven and a Hell like most people do, we believe that there is a place for how much you believe in God. Jesus didn’t take away the Ten Commandments, when asked, he paraphrased the Ten Commandments to two: ‘love God, and to love thy neighbor’. What is simpler, yet more complete than this? Would you worship idols, or if you love your neighbor, would you hurt them, or steal from them?

Going to the bottom up here is the kingdoms:

Outer Darkness: This place is only for the place for people that knowingly turn away from God. Joseph Smith said, ‘it’s like looking up at the Sun and knowing it’s up there, then saying, with all your might, that it is not there.’ (I paraphrased it somewhat).

Terrestrial Kingdom: This is the place for people who sinned the worst sins except for the unpardonable sin. Even this kingdom is more glorious then we can ever conceive.

Telestial Kingdom: This is for the generally good people that love God, yet did not endure to the end.

Celestial Kingdom: This is the highest kingdom. This is where God lives. This is also the only kingdom of Heaven that families can be together forever.

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Salvation by Grace: Elder Bruce R. McConkie

Now, there is a true doctrine of salvation by grace--a salvation by grace alone and without works, as the scriptures say. To understand this doctrine we must define our terms as they are defined in holy writ.

1. What is salvation? It is both immortality and eternal life. It is an inheritance in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It consists of the fullness of the glory of the Father and is reserved for those for whom the family unity continues in eternity. Those who are saved become as God is and live as he lives.

2. What is the plan of salvation? It is the system ordained by the Father to enable his spirit children to advance and progress and become like him. It consists of three great and eternal verities--the Creation, the Fall, and the Atonement--without any of which there could be no salvation.

3. What is the grace of God? It is his mercy, his love, and his condescension--all manifest for the benefit and blessing of his children, all operating to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

We rejoice in the heavenly condescension that enabled Mary to become “the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh” (1 Nephi 11:18).

We bask in the eternal love that sent the Only Begotten into the world “that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

We are profoundly grateful for that mercy which endureth forever and through which salvation is offered to erring mortals.

4. Does salvation come by grace, or grace alone, by grace without works? It surely does, without any question in all its parts, types, kinds, and degrees.

We are saved by grace, without works; it is a gift of God. How else could it come?

In his goodness and grace the great God ordained and established the plan of salvation. No works on our part were required.

In his goodness and grace he created this earth and all that is on it, with man as the crowning creature of his creating--without which creation his spirit children could not obtain immortality and eternal life. No works on our part were required.

In his goodness and grace he provided for the Fall of man, thus bringing mortality and death and a probationary estate into being--without all of which there would be no immortality and eternal life. And again no works on our part were required.

In his goodness and grace--and this above all--he gave his Only Begotten Son to ransom man and all life from the temporal and spiritual death brought into the world by the Fall of Adam.

He sent his Son to redeem mankind, to atone for the sins of the world, “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). And again all this comes to us as a free gift and without works.

There is nothing any man could do to create himself. This was the work of the Lord God.

Nor did we have any part in the Fall of man, without which there could be no salvation. The Lord provided the way, and Adam and Eve put the system into operation.

And finally, there neither has been, nor is, nor ever can be any way nor means by which man alone can, or any power he possesses, redeem himself.

We cannot resurrect ourselves anymore than we can create ourselves. We cannot create a heavenly abode for the Saints, nor make provision for the continuation of the family unit in eternity, nor bring salvation and exaltation into being. All these things are ordained and established by that God who is the Father of us all. And they all came into being and are made available to us, as free gifts, without works, because of the infinite goodness and grace of Him whose children we are.

Truly, there is no way to overstate the goodness and grandeurs and glories of the grace of God which bringeth salvation. Such wondrous love, such unending mercy, such infinite compassion and condescension--all these can come only from the Eternal God who lives in eternal life and who desires all of his children to live as he lives and be inheritors of eternal life.

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This is something that I have to constantly point out to the brothers and sisters of my own congregation: You cannot read a single verse or passage by itself; you must read it in its entire context.

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Jesus is warning the people about false prophets who will claim to be followers of Christ, or those who believe they are following Christ, but have actually been misled or misunderstand. You can do anything "in the name of Jesus", or "in the name of God" without doing anything that is actually according to the Lord's will if you are mistaken on what his will really is. (Crusades, anyone?) That is why it is important to know and understand who God really is, what he expects from us, and what he wants for us.

Edit: I've ignored the Grace vs. Works debate entirely because that verse does not actually concern itself with that matter.

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This is something that I have to constantly point out to the brothers and sisters of my own congregation: You cannot read a single verse or passage by itself; you must read it in its entire context.

Jesus is warning the people about false prophets who will claim to be followers of Christ, or those who believe they are following Christ, but have actually been misled or misunderstand. You can do anything "in the name of Jesus", or "in the name of God" without doing anything that is actually according to the Lord's will if you are mistaken on what his will really is. (Crusades, anyone?) That is why it is important to know and understand who God really is, what he expects from us, and what he wants for us.

Edit: I've ignored the Grace vs. Works debate entirely because that verse does not actually concern itself with that matter.

Perhaps.. but the thread is "works required for Christ's grace?"........:confused:

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Although Community of Christ/RLDS i see LDS as needing to explain grace saves many sinners from hell with no obedience required. My understanding is LDS theology is that certain rewards, positions, and glories are conditioned on obedience. That after they extend their own best efforts grace also has a use in that becomes an enabling power to obtain exaltation, ect.

Like LDS we also accept D.&C. 76 as scripture.

In my experience when LDS express doubts about not making it to the Celestial kingdom they mean they are hell bound unsaved. LDS need to explain in Mormonism for the saved they might be in danger of a lower kingdom, but not be in any danger of losing saved status. So in my experience when LDS express doubts they arn't worrying about losing basic saved status. But an Evangelical hearing LDS persons express doubts they think of LDS thinking of losing all saved status.

LDS belief on terms can also surprise Evangelicals. To them if you are saved you get eternal life. But in LDS belief for some reason it has come to mean exaltation (godhood) only. So a situation develops where saved persons not exalted can get a type of damnation. Although no proof text for the wider definition of damnation supports that definition, so i see all saved as getting eternal life.

Are works required for Christs grace? To me God can withold grace from the disobedient. To me a work like baptism is an important commandment of God. To me if a person refuses baptism then it might be because they are unsaved. And if baptism was the work they were evidencing their unbelief over by not being baptized then they would have to obey before getting saved. It would be not the work that would effect their salvation, but lack of faith in Jesus. The disobeyed would could be the point the person is held guilty of all, and get sent to the lake of fire, or the final hell.(James 2:10)

Only if disobedience could have no effect on any persons salvation at all could salvation be by the Evangelical idea of grace alone. Though i mentally caution myself not to judge a person from being damned over not getting baptized, or doing any commanded work. To me a person might refuse baptism for some other reason than unbelief in Jesus. It is up to Jesus to decide if a person is an unbeliever or not, or whether he wants to hold not keeping a commandment against them.

We are all guilty of something so depend on the same Lord for a not guilty verdict. (Romans 3:23) We can only get forgiveness of our sins, and salvation from hell via Jesus shed blood. Forgiveness sounds more complicated in LDS theology. Not being forgiven of a sin under Celestial law does not mean not forgiven under terrestrial or Telestial law. As long as you are forgiven under one of the three laws you would be saved from the lake of fire.

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Thought I would put forth some thoughts.

When it comes to discussions about saved it seems to me that everyone argues that they are saved because of something they have done and that others are not saved because they have not done whatever. I would like to suggest that the first thing someone must do before they can be saved is to get themselves hopelessly caught up in something so bad that they require that someone else rescue them. Now I can agree to the concept that everyone is so hopelessly caught up in sin that they will suffer the wages of sin – which is death and therefore they desperately need to be saved .

I wonder about those that claim to be saved from sin. Do you think you will not die? The ancient meaning of “Hell” is death. So it appears to me that everyone will suffer death which is hell. Now the argument becomes that after death some will be taken from death into heaven. Okay, if that is the case then when they are taken from death then they will be able to say they are saved. It seems rather foolish to tell everyone you are saved and then suffer death like everybody else.

Some may think they are saved from sin. This also is foolish to think that they will never again sin. It is even more foolish to realize you are going to sin (sin meaning to rebel against G-d) and think you will be saved but someone else will not be saved for their rebellion against G-d. Shall I go on?

Jesus said “forgive them for they know not what they do.” If someone has a personal relationship with G-d and then they sin – I see no where in scripture where they will be forgiven if they know G-d and turn away from him, knowing full well what they are doing? Is this not the greatest sin – to know G-d and then deny him by our actions – since actions speak lauder than words?

The apostles (that did have a personal relationship with Jesus) when told that one would deny him did they say “Not me – maybe someone else but not me because I have a personal relationship”? No they said, “L-rd is it I”? But not in the debates over grace and works – everyone thinks they deserve mercy for whatever reason and that others do not deserve mercy regardless of their different desire. I shudder that anyone would ever suggest that it is not them and then to give some excuse in one breath for turning their back on G-d and then in the next breath imply that someone else is not as deserving of being saved as they are.

Let me be clear with my belief – I believe Jesus will save anyone anywhere anytime that wants to be saved – even if they do not want to be saved at this moment – if in another moment they would be saved – I believe by the grace of G-d they will be saved. I also believe sin is quite addictive and them many will find such pleasure in sin and repeating sin over and over again that there will be some that will grow to so love sin that they will not want to be saved. Now if you know that sin takes you away from G-d and you are willing to sin – even after you have come to believe in G-d and personally know him – that you, more than anyone else are in the greatest danger.

The Traveler

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi Tiancum...

1. Grace of God for sinners

Time given by God to men to repent before Justice demands her due.

2. Grace of God for the righteous

The ability of God to see us as little children. [Holy and pure]

3. Requirements for being cleansed by the blood.

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

We are not saved by Grace as the Christian teach it...it is an abomination.

God has Grace for the sinners as well as for the righteous. Grace is a gift and it acts differently whether we are sinners or righteous. For the Sinners it is time to repent before justice demands its due. For every sin God grants us a space to repent before that sin is acted on us. The grace of God to see us as little children..is a gift that is reserved for the children of the covenant. It means one must first enter into the Covenant and fulfill its conditions. So you see God, has grace for sinners as well as for the righteous. We are all saved somewhere in the many mansions...that are in the kingdom. Only they who have made themselves unable to repent in this world or in the world to come cannot be redeemed.

The resurrection is for both the just and the unjust...by grace of God.

However, Grace does not cover our works which shall be judged.

Peace be unto you

bert10

how do you interpret this?

Does the lord require something of us before we are "saved"?

[Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven./QUOTE]

I am sure we are all in agreement that we are saved by grace. At what point does grace kick in...?

-confessing his name is a work, just as much as any other commandment.

-can a person confess Christ's name, but give no effort to follow him after his "saving moment" and fall from grace?

Edited by bert10
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Our preparations for the use of a gift do not actually buy the gift, just as a car given to us from our parents cannot be paid for by simply learning to drive. Learning to drive and obtaining a license will not buy the car, mom and dad have to fork over that cash. While our efforts are necessary for the reception of the gift, they do not make it any less free. Certainly the duties associated with a throne in heaven are vastly more demanding than driving a car. The works which the Father hath commanded that are necessary for our inheritance of the kingdom of heaven will not buy that gift, but they make us capable of receiving that which could only be bought with the blood of Christ.

-a-train

Edited by a-train
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I am sure we are all in agreement that we are saved by grace. At what point does grace kick in...?

Tiancum, in order to understand the differences between what was spoken concerning GRACE and WORKS; I would start at the basic scriptures. From the writings of the Daniel Ludlow, it reads;

Let us refer briefly to some of the major scriptures from the New Testament on this subject. Many of these references have been interpreted by some to be contradictory to the official position of the Church.

Acts 15:11: This passage is not changed in the Joseph Smith Translation: "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved."

Romans 3:23-24, 27-28: "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. . . . Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Compare that passage in the King James Version with the same passage in the Joseph Smith Translation: "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Therefore being justified only by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. . . . Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay; but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law."

Romans 4:2-5: "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Compare those verses in the King James Version with the same verses in the Joseph Smith Translation: "For if Abraham were justified by the law of works, he hath to glory in himself; but not of God. For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him who is justified by the law of works, is the reward reckoned, not of grace, but of debt. But to him that seeketh not to be justified by the law of works, but believeth on him who justifieth not the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Romans 4:13-16: "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all."

Compare that passage in the King James Version with the same passage in the Joseph Smith Translation: "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect. Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore ye are justified of faith and works, through grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to them only who are of the law, but to them also who are of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all."

Romans 11:5-6: "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work" (no changes in the Joseph Smith Translation).

Galatians 2:16: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (no changes in the Joseph Smith Translation).

Galatians 5:4: "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" (no changes in the Joseph Smith Translation).

Ephesians 2:4-10: "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (no changes except in verse 8 in the Joseph Smith Translation).

Ephesians 4:5-8: "One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men" (no changes in the Joseph Smith Translation).

James 2:14-20: "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

Compare that passage in the King James Version with the same passage in the Joseph Smith Translation. The correction is primarily a change in organization:

"What profit is it, my brethren, for a man to say he hath faith, and hath not works? can faith save him? Yea, a man may say, I will show thee I have faith without works; but I say, Show me thy faith without works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. For if a brother or sister be naked and destitute, and one of you say, Depart in peace, be warmed and filled; notwithstanding he give not those things which are needful to the body; what profit is your faith unto such?

"Even so faith, if it have not works is dead, being alone. Therefore wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead and cannot save you? Thou believest there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble; thou hast made thyself like unto them, not being justified" (James 2:14-19).

After reviewing all the pertinent scriptures on this subject in the New Testament in the King James Version and after carefully comparing them with the primary Greek words from which they were translated, with the Joseph Smith Translation, and with the teachings of modern prophets, I am convinced that the problem is neither with the translation nor with the wording of the scriptures. I am also convinced that Paul and all the other authors of New Testament books understood the doctrine of grace and works completely and spoke from a true gospel perspective as well as from the perspective of the old covenant.

Part of the problem is the failure of some persons to read all the scriptures pertaining to the subject. They select only those references that agree with their particular philosophy, and then they conveniently ignore others that shed additional light on the subject.

Another problem is in the interpretation. Here Peter's warning is appropriate: "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:20-21).

Still another problem concerns the definition and meaning of such basic terms as grace, faith, works, saved, and salvation. We need to clarify these terms with our friends in other Christian churches and then be certain we use them precisely and correctly. We should be more precise, for example, than some of us have been over the controversy about which day of the week is the correct Sabbath day. One particular Christian group has indicated that we should worship on the Sabbath day, which they say is Saturday. Too many of us argue that Saturday is not the Sabbath day, whereas we should be pointing out that Saturday is not the day of Christian worship. We should know, however, that the word Sabbath comes from the same Hebrew root as the word seventh. Saturday is the seventh day; therefore, it is the Sabbath day. Sunday is not the Sabbath (the seventh) day. Rather, Sunday is the first day of the week; it is the "Lord's day" and the day on which Christians worship. Although the terms Sabbath and Lord'sday are used correctly in the pamphlet prepared by the Church on that subject, some of us as members do not use the terms precisely. Let us not be guilty of such carelessness in regard to the terms associated with our subject of grace and works.

The extent of the problem, however, goes beyond mere definition of words. It is concerned with such questions as the following:

1. Is there a God? If so, what kind of being is he? Is he an invisible spirit, without body, parts, or passions? or is he a loving, kind, merciful Father in Heaven?

2. Are others associated with God in a group known as the Godhead? If so, are they simply different manifestations of the one God as proposed in the Trinitarian creeds? Or are they separate individuals, distinct from each other, with different functions, as explained by believers in tritheism?

3. Exactly what were the consequences of the fall of Adam and Eve? Was the Fall necessary? Are we born in original sin? That is, do we as descendants of Adam and Eve individually carry responsibility for their fall?

4. Was Jesus Christ the divine Son of God? If so, does that mean he is simply God made incarnate among men, or was he actually, literally, physically, biologically the Son of God in the flesh?

5. Did Jesus Christ accomplish the Atonement? If so, what does that mean? Did the Atonement pertain only to the physical death introduced by the fall of Adam and Eve, and is the resurrection universal? Or did the Atonement also pertain to spiritual death, and to the original transgression of Adam and Eve? If the atonement of Jesus Christ has been fully accomplished, is there anything man can or should do to be saved in the kingdom of God? Or does the Atonement of Jesus Christ guarantee that all believers in him will automatically be saved in his presence in a fulness of joy?

Also, does the Atonement apply only to those who have lived on the earth after the time of Christ and to those who had the privilege of hearing the gospel while they lived upon the earth? Or does the Atonement apply also to those who lived before the birth of the Savior? What about those who have never had an opportunity to hear the gospel, whether they lived before or after the birth of Jesus Christ?

The answers to these questions are essential to an understanding of the nature of man and the potential of mankind. They are also essential to an understanding of our topic of grace and works. Here is my understanding of the answers to these questions as taught by the Church:

1. Yes, there is a God. He is a resurrected God of glory, with a glorified body of flesh and bone. He is literally the father of our spirits; and because he dwells in the heavens, we rightfully refer to him as "Our Father which art in heaven" (Matthew 6:9). He loves and cares for us as a good, loving, kind, merciful father would.

2. Yes, others are associated with him in a special quorum known as the Godhead. One other member is the firstborn Son of God in the Spirit, our elder brother, whom we know by his earthly name and title, Jesus Christ. Another member is the Holy Ghost, a personage of spirit, whose functions include testifying that Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God.

3. The fall of Adam and Eve introduced both physical death and spiritual death into the world. As indicated in the dictionary at the end of the Latter-day Saint edition of the King James Version of the Bible, the Fall "was a necessary step in the progress of man, and provisions for a Savior had been made even before the fall had occurred. Jesus Christ came to atone for the fall of Adam and also for man's individual sins." 12 Because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, we are not born in original sin.

4. Yes, Jesus Christ was actually, literally, physically, biologically the Son of God in the flesh, the Only Begotten of the Father in this sense.

5. Yes, Jesus Christ has completed the Atonement. Because he was the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh, he inherited power over death from his immortal Father and was able to atone unconditionally for the physical death introduced by the fall of Adam and Eve and provide for the resurrection of all mankind. Because he lived a sinless life upon the earth, Christ was able, by assuming full responsibility for the original transgression of Adam and Eve, to atone unconditionally for the spiritual death of mankind introduced by their fall. Adam and Eve, however, were still responsible for any sins they committed after they obtained a knowledge of good and evil, just as we are responsible for our own sins after we arrive at the age of accountability. The atonement of Jesus Christ has made it possible for us to receive a full remission of our sins, but such forgiveness is conditional upon our observing and keeping the first principles and ordinances of the gospel. Thus, there are still some things that man can and must do before he can enter into the kingdom of God, and there are some additional things man can and must do before he can enjoy a fulness of joy in the presence of God.

Furthermore, both the unconditional and the conditional aspects of the Atonement pertain to all mankind, without exception, whether the person lived on the earth before or after the time of Christ, and whether the person had opportunity to hear the gospel while living upon the earth. Herein lies the importance of teaching the gospel to those in the postmortal spirit world, as indicated in 1 Peter 3-4, and the importance of performing vicarious ordinances for those who have died without the opportunity of hearing and accepting the gospel, as indicated in 1 Corinthians 15:29, where Paul mentions baptism for the dead.

Now that we have reviewed these essential questions and answers, it is easy to see that the fundamental question before us is not "Are we saved by grace?" The answer to that question is a definite, firm, everlasting yes. Rather, the question is "Are we saved by grace alone?" The answer to that question is an equally definite no.

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Part -2

Elder Bruce R. McConkie has answered the question "Does salvation come by grace?" in these words:

"It surely does, without any question, in all its parts, types, kinds, and degrees.

"We are saved by grace . . . ; it is a gift of God. . . .

"In his goodness and grace the great God ordained and established the plan of salvation. No works on our part were required.

"In his goodness and grace he created this earth and all that is on it, with man as the crowning creature of his creating. . . . No works on our part were required.

"In his goodness and grace he provided for the Fall of man, thus bringing mortality and death and a probationary estate into being—without all of which there would be no immortality and eternal life. And again no works on our part were required.

"In his goodness and grace—and this above all—he gave his Only Begotten Son to ransom man and all life from the temporal and spiritual death brought into the world by the Fall of Adam.

"He sent his Son to redeem mankind, to atone for the sins of the world, 'to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man' (Moses 1:39). And again all this comes to us as a free gift and without works.

"There is nothing any man could do to create himself. This was the work of the Lord God.

"Nor did we have any part in the Fall of man, without which there could be no salvation. The Lord provided the way, and Adam and Eve put the system into operation.

"And finally, there neither has been, nor is, nor ever can be any way nor means by which man alone can, by any power he possesses, redeem himself."

It is true that the atonement of Jesus Christ has several unconditional aspects, requiring neither effort nor works on our part. These include (1) the resurrection of all mankind and (2) the removal of responsibility for original sin. These gifts come to us as an act of grace, of pure love, on the part of our Heavenly Father and his Son, Jesus Christ.

But it is also true that the Atonement contains conditional aspects. For example, entrance into the kingdom of God is conditional upon our being baptized of the water and of the Spirit, as taught so clearly by the Savior in John 3:3-5. The enjoyment of a fulness of joy in the presence of our Heavenly Father and of Jesus Christ—that is, the achievement of eternal life—is conditional upon our keeping all of the commandments upon which this blessing is predicated and upon our enduring and remaining faithful to the end. That works are also required on our part to inherit eternal life is clearly and plainly taught in other places in the scriptures. Note the following statements from the New Testament:

Acts 16:30-33: The jailer said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway."

I listed this reference first because it is a classic example of how too many people quote one part of a scripture but ignore other verses that pertain to the same subject.

Matthew 5:48: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Matthew 7:21, 24, 26: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. . . . Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock. . . . And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand."

Mark 1:15: "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

Mark 16:16: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (this verse was not changed in the Joseph Smith Translation).

Luke 6:46: "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

Luke 8:21: "And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it."

John 7:17: "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

Acts 2:37-38: "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Romans 10:9-10: "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (no changes in the Joseph Smith Translation).

James 4:17: "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

Revelation 22:14: "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life."

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Usually the people who debate whether or not works are required BEFORE salvation are indeed saved (by which I mean converted). AFTER salvation, we all agree that good works are a necessary fruit. ERGO...let's be about the Father's business, all ye who consider yourselves redeemed! Amen?

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