The Creation.

[VisionOfLehi]

What will happen to the Sun? Isn't the Sun a celestial world? Looking from a Astro Science, what does this field of study say about stars when they exhausted there fuel? Only thing that is eternal is GOD's progeny?

D&C 77

1 Q. What is the sea of glass spoken of by John, 4th chapter, and 6th verse of the Revelation?

A. It is the earth, in its sanctified, immortal, and eternal state.

D&C 88

25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

[Hemidakota]

I am glad to hear this...too many members believe otherwise and follow the doctrine of men concerning stars are "nothing more than heat lamps for worlds." [tongue and cheek statement]

[gwozz]

An interesting forum! The creation is key to our understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The whole plan of salvation is built upon the three pillars of eternity--the creation fall and atonement, and if we don't understand the creation, we cannot understand the fall, and thus cannot understand from what we were redeemed through through the atonement (taken back to a pre-fallen state).

We obviously do not know the details about the creation, but that which we do have we must subscribe to, and our speculations cannot refute the simple gospel truths. So, rather than harp on different theories, I just want to make a list of gospel truths that we must abide by:

1--Adam was "first flesh" upon the earth, and there was no death upon the earth prior to Adam's fall--read the Bible Dictionary under "fall of Adam" and "death" and "flesh" for explanation and scriptural references.

2--God is omnipotent.

3--God is the creator

4--God is the law-giver

5--Man is his literal offspring (see BD under "god" for these references--also the "origin of man").

6--All things are created after their own kind, and can only create after their own kind. (ie all bears came from bears, and can only make more bears).

7--As all things fell with Adam, all things will be saved by Christ, whose redemption was instituted to save all that fell with them, which is also all that He created. (would Christ have come had there been no fall? No. Christ came to restore life to a pre-fallen state, overcoming death (physical and spiritual). His coming was not necessary until the fall, b/c before it, all creation was already immortal, and living in God's presence.

8--The resurrection is the "inseparable union" of body and spirit. Thus if you are resurrected with a body of celestial glory, there will be no substitution for a telestial body after the resurrection.

9--Eternal progression and exaltation--the state which our Father resides in, can only be achieved as a family (man and woman as husband and wife).

10--God is not bound by "natural laws" as we understand them here on earth (ie scientific laws created by man to explain our current condition). God ascended into heaven, moved the mount Zerhin as the brother of Jared commanded, split the red sea for the israelites, and causes the earth to slow its rotation so the day is prolonged (helaman 12). Trying to limit God or explain his ways using scientific conclusions as our professors teach it will never get it right. We can only know God, his ways, and His creation as it is revealed from above ("the origin of man").

If you disagree with any of these truths, let me know and I'll take the time to give all the scirptural refereces. But, if you disagree with any of these truths, then it may be contributing to a theory concerning the creation that may not be accurate.

Anyone can find justification for any obscure theory in the scriptures. This is done by isolated scriptures out of contexts and choosing the wording of one verse over another. We must take all scripture as a whole, and if it is not taught consitently in multiple places throughout the scriptures, then we must take great caution in accepting it. And our speculations cannot refute any other doctrinal principle either.

Justice, I'm not sure exactly what you believe, and all the conclusions that you're getting at, but if you do know the truth concerning the creation, I'm not sure they are truths that are meant to be taught. God has intentionally left details out of the scriptures that would greatly enhance our understanding (3nephi 26:9-11). Why? He reserves the right to reveal them to the faithful who seek him. My personal observation is that those who know do not openly and explicitly teach it, and those who don't know say very much about it, creating large and detailed explanations. One thing is for sure, that an understanding of the creation, especially that of Man's creation, will open all other principles of the gospel to one's eyes, clarify and teach the deeper meaning and significance behind the the temple covenants, and result in resounding asurity concerning scientific principles that refute it--as it cannot be true. If you're interested in discussing your viewpoints more freely, send me a personal message. I'd be interested to chat.

[VisionOfLehi]

Somebody brought it up sort of in passing earlier, but I wanted to bring it up a little more.

The earth was created. It was baptized by water... cleansed in the flood that destroyed all but Noah and those who took with him.

It is said that the earth will be destroyed with fire, the next time. Baptized by fire.

How cool is that?

[skalenfehl]

At Christ's second coming the earth will become as a furnace. The wicked will burn as stubble. That will be the baptism by fire. I shudder to think about that but at the same time I rejoice because I'm really trying hard to by worthy and prepare for His return.

[Guest tomk]

Somebody brought it up sort of in passing earlier, but I wanted to bring it up a little more.

The earth was created. It was baptized by water... cleansed in the flood that destroyed all but Noah and those who took with him.

It is said that the earth will be destroyed with fire, the next time. Baptized by fire.

How cool is that?

VOL:

I have heard this before as well.

That the Earth is a "living being" and that it goes through the same critical stages that we must pass through:

Birth

Baptism

Holy Ghost

Ressurection (?) - sea of glass ?

Interesting that the proportion of water the earth has is about the same as the proportion of water in our own bodies.

1 Ne. 19: 12

12 And all these things must surely come, saith the prophet Zenos. And the rocks of the earth must rend; and because of the groanings of the earth, many of the kings of the isles of the sea shall be wrought upon by the Spirit of God, to exclaim: The God of nature suffers.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

7--As all things fell with Adam, all things will be saved by Christ, whose redemption was instituted to save all that fell with them, which is also all that He created. (would Christ have come had there been no fall? No. Christ came to restore life to a pre-fallen state, overcoming death (physical and spiritual). His coming was not necessary until the fall, b/c before it, all creation was already immortal, and living in God's presence.

8--The resurrection is the "inseparable union" of body and spirit. Thus if you are resurrected with a body of celestial glory, there will be no substitution for a telestial body after the resurrection.

9--Eternal progression and exaltation--the state which our Father resides in, can only be achieved as a family (man and woman as husband and wife).

If you disagree with any of these truths, let me know and I'll take the time to give all the scirptural refereces. But, if you disagree with any of these truths, then it may be contributing to a theory concerning the creation that may not be accurate.

I disagree with a part of number 7. Christ came to fulfill the Law. The law, aka Plan of Salvation. Fulfilling this consists of receiving Exaltation. It was made possible through Christ. It does not bring us back to a pre-mortal state other than to finish progression to Exaltation.

Immortality as it pertains to man, consists of the uniting of body and spirit forever, just as you stated with number 8. Yes intelligence is an eternal and infinite existence, so it is thus immortal. But it would persist that way, even without the redemption of Christ. You stated that yourself.

His coming has always been necessary. It is an eternal principle. It is everlasting. It would not have been possible without the Atonement. But the necessity has always been needed. That was the way ordained of by God to bring men to Exaltation. From before the foundations of the world.

Because of the Atonement of Christ the terms and conditions of the Plan of Salvation became operative. If there were no Atonement of Christ, we would become like the devil and his angels. Subject to his everlasting misery and woe.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

I have a question as it pertains to baptism.

The Earth receive its baptism by blood through the atonement of Christ, but what about its original birth when the Earth was created.

How was the Earth born by blood the first time?

It has received two "births" for water, and spirit. I see one for blood.

Moses 6:59

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

[Guest tomk]

I have a question as it pertains to baptism.

The Earth receive its baptism by blood through the atonement of Christ, but what about its original birth when the Earth was created.

How was the Earth born by blood the first time?

It has received two "births" for water, and spirit. I see one for blood.

Moses 6:59

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

What is the earth's ... "blood"?

Lava?

It's red.

It flows forth when the earth is "punctured" or "rent" or "pierced"

My second guess is ... Oil?

Hee hee - then what is methane?

Sorry - ignore me.

[Hemidakota]

Somebody brought it up sort of in passing earlier, but I wanted to bring it up a little more.

The earth was created. It was baptized by water... cleansed in the flood that destroyed all but Noah and those who took with him.

It is said that the earth will be destroyed with fire, the next time. Baptized by fire.

How cool is that?

How would you explained the height of Mount Everest in seeing the Earth being baptized by water? One of those long arguments on the Eyr-L forum years past. Lehi, I am not questioning you but what members in the church of the science field would state.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

What is the earth's ... "blood"?

Lava?

It's red.

It flows forth when the earth is "punctured" or "rent" or "pierced"

My second guess is ... Oil?

Hee hee - then what is methane?

Sorry - ignore me.

It would make sense though. Those natural flowing resources. I actually heard the other day from an enzymologist. That the only degenerative cells in our body are red blood cells. The function of mortality. We know there won't be a body of flesh and blood but rather of flesh and bones. Kinda interesting.

As lava hardens it becomes part of the Earth. It becomes firmer, stronger, and more fine and pure. Just as an exalted body does in comparison to a telestial or terrestrial body. So I would then suspect then that the Earth would lose that factor and it would harden all the way through. How do we form glass?...

Of course I do not know for sure, but this is what just occurred to me.

[skalenfehl]

THIRD...I don't believe it needs to be that technical. We are all filling our measures of creation as are the creatures of the earth. The earth is filling its own measure of creation. I don't believe the earth needs to go through all the complexities of the atonement that we do.

[Hemidakota]

At Christ's second coming the earth will become as a furnace. The wicked will burn as stubble. That will be the baptism by fire. I shudder to think about that but at the same time I rejoice because I'm really trying hard to by worthy and prepare for His return.

Skale, have you sat in a Sauna, where the temp is a 200-degree for thirty minutes?

[gwozz]

I disagree with a part of number 7. Christ came to fulfill the Law. The law, aka Plan of Salvation. Fulfilling this consists of receiving Exaltation. It was made possible through Christ. It does not bring us back to a pre-mortal state other than to finish progression to Exaltation.

Immortality as it pertains to man, consists of the uniting of body and spirit forever, just as you stated with number 8. Yes intelligence is an eternal and infinite existence, so it is thus immortal. But it would persist that way, even without the redemption of Christ. You stated that yourself.

His coming has always been necessary. It is an eternal principle. It is everlasting. It would not have been possible without the Atonement. But the necessity has always been needed. That was the way ordained of by God to bring men to Exaltation. From before the foundations of the world.

Because of the Atonement of Christ the terms and conditions of the Plan of Salvation became operative. If there were no Atonement of Christ, we would become like the devil and his angels. Subject to his everlasting misery and woe.

I should have phrased my words more carefully. Christ came to overcome death, so that we (all life included) can be restored or redeemed from the fall, and thus taken back to a pre-fallen like state. (every wonder what the word "paradisiacal" means in referring to the earth renewal?) There will be differences in the state of man, obviously, as we have progressed, but Christ came to overcome death--spiritual and physical. Yes, he fulfilled the "law" (he fulfilled the law of moses which pointed and symbolized his atonement to pay for death which came by the fall; and also he was sacrificed from "the foundations of the world" as isaiah puts it, referring to his premortal covenant with the father to bring about the infinite atonement," so you could say he came to fulfill the law given him by virtue of his covenant with the father). But that said, the purpose of the atonement is to overcome death! Is that not the sole reason he came? So you and I can be redeemed from Death, or in otherwords, redeemed from the Fall?

[Hemidakota]

What is the earth's ... "blood"?

Lava?

It's red.

It flows forth when the earth is "punctured" or "rent" or "pierced"

My second guess is ... Oil?

Hee hee - then what is methane?

Sorry - ignore me.

Or oil...just added speculation.

[VisionOfLehi]

I have a question as it pertains to baptism.

The Earth receive its baptism by blood through the atonement of Christ, but what about its original birth when the Earth was created.

How was the Earth born by blood the first time?

It has received two "births" for water, and spirit. I see one for blood.

Moses 6:59

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand there was no blood on Earth before the Fall. Would not the Fall be the first birth by blood?

What are the births by spirit and water that you see?

[THIRDpersonviewer]

THIRD...I don't believe it needs to be that technical. We are all filling our measures of creation as are the creatures of the earth. The earth is filling its own measure of creation. I don't believe the earth needs to go through all the complexities of the atonement that we do.

You're probably right, but I just so happen to be a technical person. I look at details, and I use them to analyze the principle. Some details alter a principle. Hence, as I saw it, my earlier disagreement to gwozz.

That is sometimes my problem, and sometimes it works to great advantage. I think you're right, though. The Earth doesn't need to go through all of what we go through. That would be because that is not the purpose of its creation.

I have just heard those similar comparisons about the Earth before, about baptism and so forth and was just curious.

[skalenfehl]

Well, read verse 59 again. The context of blood does not refer to the earth and therefore does not apply to the earth.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand there was no blood on Earth before the Fall. Would not the Fall be the first birth by blood?

What are the births by spirit and water that you see?

spirit is when the Earth was housed by its spirit just as we are to our body.

water was part of the creation of the Earth.

[Hemidakota]

Is this the following assumption for this earth then?

Creation by Spirit

Creation by physical [mortal]

Baptism by Water

Baptism by Fire

Purification

Exaltation

[Hemidakota]

An interesting forum! The creation is key to our understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The whole plan of salvation is built upon the three pillars of eternity--the creation fall and atonement, and if we don't understand the creation, we cannot understand the fall, and thus cannot understand from what we were redeemed through through the atonement (taken back to a pre-fallen state).

We obviously do not know the details about the creation, but that which we do have we must subscribe to, and our speculations cannot refute the simple gospel truths. So, rather than harp on different theories, I just want to make a list of gospel truths that we must abide by:

1--Adam was "first flesh" upon the earth, and there was no death upon the earth prior to Adam's fall--read the Bible Dictionary under "fall of Adam" and "death" and "flesh" for explanation and scriptural references.

2--God is omnipotent.

3--God is the creator

4--God is the law-giver

5--Man is his literal offspring (see BD under "god" for these references--also the "origin of man").

6--All things are created after their own kind, and can only create after their own kind. (ie all bears came from bears, and can only make more bears).

7--As all things fell with Adam, all things will be saved by Christ, whose redemption was instituted to save all that fell with them, which is also all that He created. (would Christ have come had there been no fall? No. Christ came to restore life to a pre-fallen state, overcoming death (physical and spiritual). His coming was not necessary until the fall, b/c before it, all creation was already immortal, and living in God's presence.

8--The resurrection is the "inseparable union" of body and spirit. Thus if you are resurrected with a body of celestial glory, there will be no substitution for a telestial body after the resurrection.

9--Eternal progression and exaltation--the state which our Father resides in, can only be achieved as a family (man and woman as husband and wife).

10--God is not bound by "natural laws" as we understand them here on earth (ie scientific laws created by man to explain our current condition). God ascended into heaven, moved the mount Zerhin as the brother of Jared commanded, split the red sea for the israelites, and causes the earth to slow its rotation so the day is prolonged (helaman 12). Trying to limit God or explain his ways using scientific conclusions as our professors teach it will never get it right. We can only know God, his ways, and His creation as it is revealed from above ("the origin of man").

If you disagree with any of these truths, let me know and I'll take the time to give all the scirptural refereces. But, if you disagree with any of these truths, then it may be contributing to a theory concerning the creation that may not be accurate.

Anyone can find justification for any obscure theory in the scriptures. This is done by isolated scriptures out of contexts and choosing the wording of one verse over another. We must take all scripture as a whole, and if it is not taught consitently in multiple places throughout the scriptures, then we must take great caution in accepting it. And our speculations cannot refute any other doctrinal principle either.

Justice, I'm not sure exactly what you believe, and all the conclusions that you're getting at, but if you do know the truth concerning the creation, I'm not sure they are truths that are meant to be taught. God has intentionally left details out of the scriptures that would greatly enhance our understanding (3nephi 26:9-11). Why? He reserves the right to reveal them to the faithful who seek him. My personal observation is that those who know do not openly and explicitly teach it, and those who don't know say very much about it, creating large and detailed explanations. One thing is for sure, that an understanding of the creation, especially that of Man's creation, will open all other principles of the gospel to one's eyes, clarify and teach the deeper meaning and significance behind the the temple covenants, and result in resounding asurity concerning scientific principles that refute it--as it cannot be true. If you're interested in discussing your viewpoints more freely, send me a personal message. I'd be interested to chat.

Good writeup....

I do like how you wrote this statement:

The creation is key to our understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The whole plan of salvation is built upon the three pillars of eternity--the creation fall and atonement, and if we don't understand the creation, we cannot understand the fall, and thus cannot understand from what we were redeemed through through the atonement (taken back to a pre-fallen state).

Something that President George Q. Cannon talked about:

"The importance of small things. We are often indifferent to the importance of small things. . . . All that we will know at the end of our lives will be the sum total of the ideas we have daily accumulated. In like manner our moral characters are made up little by little from the impressions we receive from our surroundings.

For these reasons every act of our lives is of some importance, for it helps to shape our destiny or that of those around us. The accumulated good works of our lives must be the measure of our salvation in the world to come. . . ."

[Hemidakota]

Some more studies with President Cannon concerning the earth cursings...

"The earth has been cursed because of man's transgressions. When the earth was first organized and man was placed upon it, everything was lovely and beautiful. The earth was fair and yielded its fruits in great abundance. Every living thing dwelt on the earth in peace. But man soon began to listen to Satan, and broke God's laws. The evils which now exist then commenced to appear.

When men began to steal, blaspheme, quarrel, hate one another and murder, then love and peace were withdrawn, and enmity also extended to the animals and birds. Earthquakes tore up the face of the ground, and mountains and valleys were seen. Floods came, and the sea spread and covered parts of the earth and divided it up. Fruitful spots were turned into deserts and many changes took place all over the earth, through God's judgments being poured out upon wicked men. Man's sin changed earth in many places from a heaven into a hell." (Dec. 15, 1866, JI 1:95)

[gwozz]

You're probably right, but I just so happen to be a technical person. I look at details, and I use them to analyze the principle. Some details alter a principle. Hence, as I saw it, my earlier disagreement to gwozz.

That is sometimes my problem, and sometimes it works to great advantage. I think you're right, though. The Earth doesn't need to go through all of what we go through. That would be because that is not the purpose of its creation.

I have just heard those similar comparisons about the Earth before, about baptism and so forth and was just curious.

Well, let me give you a scripture to think about: D&C 88:25: "25 And again, verily I say unto you, the aearth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the bmeasure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—"

So the earth was obedient to a law? Apparently so--the celestial law.

In the same section: 36 All kingdoms have a law given;

37 And there are many akingdoms; for there is no bspace in the which there is no ckingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

38 And unto every kingdom is given a alaw; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

All kingdoms have a law given, and there is no space where there is no kingdom, thus all things have a law given them by the law-giver, who is God. There are, however, "greater" and "lesser" kingdoms. All the laws we have pertain to the kingdom in which we find ourselves. I'm sure all forms of life, earth included, have their own kingdom, with laws given them, and their judgement and respective glories in resurrection will be dependent upon their obedience to their own laws. We only have the laws of our kingdom given. We know nothing about the other kingdoms which exist. One thing is sure, however: Our earth obeyed the laws given it, and will be thus obtain the celestial. Will all planets obey and be celestial? Will all animals obey and be celestial? All will be resurrected of course, but that means our earth has a form of agency if it can choose to be obedient and receive rewards dependent upon its choosing.

Deep stuff. I recommend a full read of D&C88. Its one of the greatest sections in the D&C IMHO.

[Hemidakota]

I do agree on that statement concerning D&C 88 - neat stuff.

[Vanhin]

Skale, have you sat in a Sauna, where the temp is a 200-degree for thirty minutes?

I have, but I much prefer a sauna at 160-170 F temperatures and sessions 10-15 minutes long, with time to cool off in between (outside or in a lake). It's more relaxing that way. Make sure you bring plenty to drink afterwards (or during).

"...lisää löylyä!"

Regards,

Vanhin