A question to all LDS men...


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This suggests that man can "earn" the right to a "pure" wife by being pure himself. But Jesus said: "...whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart" (Matt 5:28). Don't tell me that the most morally upright man in the world hasn't done that (at least occasionally) when he's seen a pretty girl walk past. We are all sinners. None of us is any better than anyone else. It is only by Grace that any of us can be considered righteous.

That depends on how you define lust. If you define lust as attraction and desire then that means God made us to sin in the first place. It's not sin to want to get to know a member of the opposite sex -- it can go under coveting if you are a man and are already married (or she is married) but single women can desire another woman's husband (under the Hebrew interpretation of the 10 Commandments) since polygamy figures into the commandments of God (she can indeed become his wife too).

It becomes lust I think when you fantasize about having relations with someone you aren't married to. Your heart rate going up in another person's presense, or any number of other physiological changes, does not mean you have sinned unless you want to take them and commit fornication or adultery in your conscious thought processes.

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I think forcible rape is probably worse. Also, killing and eating people is probably worse than thinking you're better than they are. Not sure, but I might be able to come up with one or two more.

I don't believe God is a consequentialist: It is not the consequences of our sins that damage our relationship with God, but the effect those sins have upon ourselves - i.e. making us less worthy to enter His presence.

I suspect that killing and eating your neighbor will have a more negative effect on your worthiness to enter God's presence than thinking you're better or more worthy than he is.

Most theologians would agree that pride is the most detestable sin in the eyes of God

And I should care about the opinion of theologians because...?

and the original cause of Satan's fall.

Rebellion, not pride, was the original and proximate cause of Satan's fall.

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I think forcible rape is probably worse. Also, killing and eating people is probably worse than thinking you're better than they are. Not sure, but I might be able to come up with one or two more.

I do believe J was referring to those who were baptized into the church. This is where it is none of anyone business but the Godhead.

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So, if this young man decides that her past is too complex and emotionally dense and he decides to pass, it is his choice. He is also entitled to expect someone that has upheld the same values, under the same social pressures, and kept her virginity.

This suggests that man can "earn" the right to a "pure" wife by being pure himself.

No, it suggests that people have the right to marry whom they will.

for a man to rule out any "convert" as a potential marriage partner on the basis of their previous "sins of the flesh" (real or imagined) is surely a sin in itself.

Why?

Is it also a "sin" for me to rule out a potential marriage partner because she weighs 600 pounds and smells bad? No? Then why the difference?

I see no sin in deciding whom I wish to marry, and for whatever reasons I see fit. My reasons may be wise or foolish, but it's no sin.

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What caused that rebellion? His pride in not being accepted in playing the role as the Savior. :D

I could as easily argue that it was desire for power that "caused" the fall of Satan. We are all guilty of pride, but we are not all lost forever. The distinguishing factor between Satan and you (or me) is that you (and I) didn't rebel against God.

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I suspect that killing and eating your neighbor will have a more negative effect on your worthiness to enter God's presence than thinking you're better or more worthy than he is.

It's interesting that the Catholic Seven Deadly Sins (yes, I know you're not a Catholic - I'll come to that in a minute) make no mention of specific acts like murder and theft - they are all things like pride, envy and greed which might lead to such acts. Real sin is the root-cause of evil deeds - rape and cannibalism (to use your examples) are the symptoms.

And I should care about the opinion of theologians because...?

I'm not exactly sure what the Mormon thinking about pride is, but the discussions I've had with missionaries lead me to think it's very similar to that of mainstream Christianity. The Christian writers I was thinking of (David Watson for example, or C.S. Lewis) are not by-and-large Mormons, but I think their ideas are worth "caring about" - even to members of your Church.

Rebellion, not pride, was the original and proximate cause of Satan's fall.

What was the cause of his rebellion if not pride?
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I think forcible rape is probably worse. Also, killing and eating people is probably worse than thinking you're better than they are. Not sure, but I might be able to come up with one or two more.

I do believe J was referring to those who were baptized into the church.

I would argue that it's worse for a man to kill and eat his neighbor than to think he's better than his neighbor, even if the man (and/or the neighbor) is LDS.

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I could as easily argue that it was desire for power that "caused" the fall of Satan. We are all guilty of pride, but we are not all lost forever. The distinguishing factor between Satan and you (or me) is that you (and I) didn't rebel against God.

He never learned humility Volt. At least for us, in our prideful ways, we at least have enough humility to seek to overcome our own faults. Now I wish some of this site need to see the same [not talking about you Volt]. ;)

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It's interesting that the Catholic Seven Deadly Sins (yes, I know you're not a Catholic - I'll come to that in a minute) make no mention of specific acts like murder and theft - they are all things like pride, envy and greed which might lead to such acts.

I can think of some passages in Exodus where God does indeed specify acts such as murder and theft as being wrong. Maybe you can think of them, too. :)

Real sin is the root-cause of evil deeds - rape and cannibalism (to use your examples) are the symptoms.

I fully reject this idea. If I have desires and impulses and I act on them to commit murder and rape, then I am guilty of grave sin. If I do not act on them, I am not guilty of that sin. To think otherwise is to make a mockery of the very idea of individual choice and accountability.

I'm not exactly sure what the Mormon thinking about pride is

It's along these lines: Pride = bad.

The Christian writers I was thinking of (David Watson for example, or C.S. Lewis) are not by-and-large Mormons, but I think their ideas are worth "caring about" - even to members of your Church.

Why?

What was the cause of his rebellion if not pride?

Irrelevant, as I've discussed above.

Edited by Vort
Unintentionally combative
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Getting back to the original point: I don't think LDS women are that hung up on marrying RMs outside of Utah. Here in England, I've had lots of opportunities to date and I'm not an RM. I just try to help people when I can, love God and other members in the church and am always up for a laugh.

That seems enough for them. I've got a little chub, I'm not an RM or a supermodel and I'm not a Doctor. Seems like there are women out there for everyone. Don't worry too much about the girls who won't date you. They're few and far between. Most women who use the RM thing as an excuse actually have other reasons not to date you. Work on those things.

As for LDS guys - I don't think anyone worries too much about a past. And if they do, they probably have problems of their own and you don't want to date them. Or there might be something else you need to work on in your life to become more 'Dateable'.

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I would argue that it's worse for a man to kill and eat his neighbor than to think he's better than his neighbor, even if the man (and/or the neighbor) is LDS.

Again, what is the purpose of baptism and partaking the Sacrament each week?

To renew the baptismal covenant.

Again, it's far worse for a man to kill and eat his neighbor than to think he's better than his neighbor, even if the man (and/or the neighbor) is LDS.

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I can think of some passages in Exodus where God does indeed specify acts such as murder and theft as being wrong. Maybe you can think of them, too. :)

I have nowhere suggested that they are not bad. Lung cancer is bad, but if a person dies of lung cancer caused by excessive smoking, what killed them? The smoking or the cancer? The answer of course is both, but I think you would agree that the root cause was the smoking.

I fully reject this idea. If I have desires and impulses and I act on them to commit murder and rape, then I am guilty of grave sin. If I do not act on them, I am not guilty of that sin. To think otherwise is to make a mockery of the very idea of individual choice and accountability.

Here we must differ. Willfully indulging in murderous thoughts does our souls the same damage as actual acts of murder. (Though obviously the temporal consequences are less severe.) We must strive to be clean in thoughts, as well as in actions. Of course we will slip from time to time (just as we will continue to lust after attractive members of the opposite sex) which is why we need continually to repent, ask God's forgiveness and strive to do better.

It's along these lines: Pride = bad.

OK so we're in agreement here.

Why?

Isaac Newton was not a Mormon. Does that mean you don't care about gravity? Seriously though, if you "don't care" about the ideas of anyone outside your Church, then maybe I'd better not mention them again.

Irrelevant, as I've discussed above.

Not irrelevant at all - as I've discussed above.

The distinguishing factor between Satan and you (or me) is that you (and I) didn't rebel against God.

Are you telling me you've never ever done your "own thing" when deep down you've known that God had other plans for you? If so, you're either fooling yourself, or you're a better Christian than I'll ever be in this life!

Now I wish some of this site need to see the same [not talking about you Volt]. ;)

Maybe I have a guilty conscience, but I suspect you're talking about me. It's sometimes difficult to put your feelings over in the face of opposition without appearing arrogant. But yes, the cap does fit: Like every other fallen human, I have issues in my life which I need continuously to address. Edited by Jamie123
Clarification and more info.
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