A question to all LDS men...

[NeuroTypical]

today girls are taught to aspire to marry only an RM, having had 3 sisters and a Mom tell me this.

Today's girls phooey. I'm a daddy of two of today's girls, and I teach them nothing of the kind.

I'm with RachelleDrew: "Girls need to realize that while having a man who served a mission is a great blessing to their potential family, it's not everything."

LM

[Hemidakota]

While that is true, today girls are taught to aspire to marry only an RM, having had 3 sisters and a Mom tell me this. I've known 2 women who married RM's only to later get divorce because of abuse and neglect.

In seeing that statement, brings chill to my soul.

That is not doctrinal and bad principle to follow. That goes to anyone who would tell their children the same.

As a parent, I would tell my children not to marry outside of the temple - that is about it.

[skalenfehl]

I would. My mother was a convert. Had my father not married her, who knows where I'd be. And I should note that it was my mother's spirit and diligence in living the gospel that kept my family together and the reason I didn't go off the deep end rather than serve a mission and later marry in the temple and remain active through today.

Alma 57: 21

21 Yea, and they did obey and observe to perform every word of command with exactness; yea, and even according to their faith it was done unto them; and I did remember the words which they said unto me that their mothers had taught them.

Thank you, Mom! :)

[VisionOfLehi]

Girls in my ward have told me that in Young Women's marrying a returned missionary was emphasized.

[Jenamarie]

Girls in my ward have told me that in Young Women's marrying a returned missionary was emphasized.

I think that can largely depend on the leaders. When I was in Young Women's we had some teachers who would stress marrying an RM, and others who said "Look for a man who can take you to the Temple", with no mention of his missionary status.

More recently when I was in my ward's YW's presidency, we would talk about what sorts of qualities to look for in an Eternal Companion, and it would be the *girls* who would mention looking for an RM, WE the leaders never stressed it. We focused on being worthy to take eachother to the Temple, and the Testimony of the young man, in addition to personal qualities, such as being able to control their tempers (i.e. not violent).

Sometimes I think people use a man's missionary status as a litmus test of marriage worthiness. Oh, he served a mission, therefore he must be really close to the Spirit and prepared for Temple marriage. That may be more true now than in years past, due to the recent raising of the bar for perspective missionaries, but even so, life happens, and some RM's can and do fall to the pressures of the world *after* their missions. And some men who failed to meet the raised standards can repent and become very strong in the Gospel.

[VisionOfLehi]

I've heard that, too. Girls bring up the RMs, and then the leaders... I don't know, haven't been there, but they might "praise" that.

I also know Pat. Blessings mention girls marrying RMs, which is another reason some date RMs only.

[Hemidakota]

I would. My mother was a convert. Had my father not married her, who knows where I'd be. And I should note that it was my mother's spirit and diligence in living the gospel that kept my family together and the reason I didn't go off the deep end rather than serve a mission and later marry in the temple and remain active through today.

Alma 57: 21

21 Yea, and they did obey and observe to perform every word of command with exactness; yea, and even according to their faith it was done unto them; and I did remember the words which they said unto me that their mothers had taught them.

Thank you, Mom! :)

I do love to see these types of postings…showing exceeding reverence for mortal parent.

I grew up with a mother who had an inert personality due to WWII. I never felt I wasn't love but her affection was not quite obvious. Her love was demonstrated by her actions. I came to mortality, being born on her birthday and for that, there is joy to my spirit that I was destined to be her gift for mortality.

[Hemidakota]

I think that can largely depend on the leaders. When I was in Young Women's we had some teachers who would stress marrying an RM, and others who said "Look for a man who can take you to the Temple", with no mention of his missionary status.

More recently when I was in my ward's YW's presidency, we would talk about what sorts of qualities to look for in an Eternal Companion, and it would be the *girls* who would mention looking for an RM, WE the leaders never stressed it. We focused on being worthy to take eachother to the Temple, and the Testimony of the young man, in addition to personal qualities, such as being able to control their tempers (i.e. not violent).

Sometimes I think people use a man's missionary status as a litmus test of marriage worthiness. Oh, he served a mission, therefore he must be really close to the Spirit and prepared for Temple marriage. That may be more true now than in years past, due to the recent raising of the bar for perspective missionaries, but even so, life happens, and some RM's can and do fall to the pressures of the world *after* their missions. And some men who failed to meet the raised standards can repent and become very strong in the Gospel.

Exactly...."look for a man who can take you to the temple. Then I would add, watch not only his actions but his spiritual maturity. It took my wife and I, the next 18-months of dating [on and off] to finally be sealed in the temple.

For others, what I do know from our spiritual birth through Providence, those who demonstrated exceeding faith and actions prior to this earth were given greater opportunities on what and where, with choosing to forefill our FATHERS will when coming to this mortality. For some, FATHERs will is presented for them to not be born under the covenant but rather be pioneers for that lineage. Now, is this person lesser than someone born under the covenant? No....

Jenne, I want you to know I do admire your experiences and candour level of posting. When you do post, I do make it point to read them; as I do on others here.

[erichazelle]

Well, yeah, I guess I would date an L.D.S. convert, but my wife would probably shoot me.

[ztodd]

...

It would more be what habits have been picked up over the years. There are some things being Raised as LDS would be different for a convert. I’m not saying these are deal breakers, I would just have to look long and hard if these habits are something that can be overlook, or that might need working on.

...

How bad are her teeth? How long did she/he drink and smoke? How long have they stopped. Why did they start it in the first place? (I have heard people drink and or smoke to relax, or for what ever reason) has this person found a new way to relax or are they going to go back to it. I bring this up not to judge, but to realize that changing a life style isn’t easy. (I know I would have a hard time being a Baptist, they are always so tan.) Each situation would be different.

I whole heartedly agree with being cautious about dating someone with a past.

Read with a heart open to the spirit...

Joseph Smith translation of Matt. 7: 1-2

Now these are the words which Jesus taught his disciples that they should say unto the people. Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged: but judge righteous judgment.

Alma 41: 14 (14-15). 14 Therefore, my son, see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; and if ye do all these things then shall ye receive your reward; yea, ye shall have mercy restored unto you again; ye shall have justice restored unto you again; ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you again; and ye shall have good rewarded unto you again.

D&C 11: 12. 12 And now, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good—yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit.

The judgments we make in our lives are not judgments of the kind that God makes- we don't judge if someone has been forgiven of their sins by God... but we make judgments of what we feel we ought to do based on knowledge we have of the past and present, and through much prayer. We try to judge, with our God's help, what will be for our best good to lead us to salvation and happiness.

[NateHowe]

Hello...my friend and I were discussing this, and we thought we would get some guys opinions! Would you seriously date a convert to the LDS? Because, as you all know, once you join the Church, you get a "clean slate", and (for the most part) what you did in your previous life as non-LDS, is forgetten. So, knowing that a woman did not previously following the WoW regarding all of its teachings, would you consider dating or even possibly marrying and be sealed to that person? We are awaiting your responses!

I have dated converts before. If I were not married, I would again. I would much rather spend time with a committed convert than a lukewarm lifelong member.

[Fiannan]

I hope nothing happens to my wife but if it did I would date a convert as I am one too. Personally, I'd prefer to date a non-member and convert them to the Church since I find lifelong female members too often remind me of the character with red hair on "Desperate Housewives".

[NateHowe]

I will note that President Monson never went on a mission. There are couple more of the same within the 12...lol

We should also note with that note that the reason President Monson and others of the Twelve did not serve missions was war, not complacency or indecision.

[Guest Xzain]

It's been said a lot, but I add my voice to the chorus: I don't care about one's tempoal membership history- I care about their spiritual membership status. In other words, whether one was born into, or out of, a covenant marriage is less relevant than their spiritual health and maturity.

If someone has a 'past', caution, maturity, and charitable communication should be employed before getting into a serious relationship- but it is not a factor that, in and of itself, is prohibitive to any degree of commitment whatsoever.

Some of the best advice I was ever given was 'not to judge as man judgeth', but to look on a person's heart, and not their exterior. I take that to mean, in this sense, that I should get to know a person for who they are now, not what they have been in the past when they were immersed in different circumstances and had different challenges to face.

About the RM tangent:

It is my sad experience (and this most assuredly does not speak to all girls who feel this way) that the young women who set 'RM-only' standards for dating materials are usually the young women who also include 'must be good-looking and have a nice car' in those standards. This might be a malady confined to my area (Lexington, Kentucky), but I fear the implications of that observation is that the 'RM-only' standard is one of outward judgement.

NOW, there's a fine line here. I support the goal and standards of my older sister, who will not marry (or even seriously date) a man who does not have an 'RM spirit'- meaning a man who is truly converted to the Gospel, mature in his outlook on life and his spirituality, and willing to share his belief and live it! I may not be able to serve a mission for sundry reaons, but I nonetheless aim to get the true spirit of the Returned Missionary. It is my belief that the emphasis on marrying a returned missionary to the young women of the Church is God-given- yet it must be understood by the 'synchronization of the spirit' (to use Maxwell's inestimable phrase). In other words, one must know what the purpose of a mission is, what serving a mission does to a young man or woman, and what the desired outcome of it is. Above all, a young woman must know God- then she shall know herself and what God requires of her.

[checkerboy]

It is my sad experience (and this most assuredly does not speak to all girls who feel this way) that the young women who set 'RM-only' standards for dating materials are usually the young women who also include 'must be good-looking and have a nice car' in those standards. This might be a malady confined to my area (Lexington, Kentucky), but I fear the implications of that observation is that the 'RM-only' standard is one of outward judgement.

Nope Xzain, that philosophy is alive and well in more places, most prominantly in the Salt Lake Valley. I believe it is refered to there as the princess syndrome. Basically women out there think they are princesses and won't lower themselves to date those they deem below them. So they have become closed off to really great guys that don't fit their "prince" mold.

[KuriChan]

After she has been a member in solid standing for a decent amount of time (maybe a year or so) I would say "definitely". In fact, I think I would prefer one. In general, many many of the church members born into the covenant never really have been challenged and simply take the church for granted. A convert, however, knows what the "other side" is like and was wise enough to escape. That wisdom will serve her well for the rest of her life and will be a blessing to those she speaks to.

[Fiannan]

Nope Xzain, that philosophy is alive and well in more places, most prominantly in the Salt Lake Valley. I believe it is refered to there as the princess syndrome. Basically women out there think they are princesses and won't lower themselves to date those they deem below them. So they have become closed off to really great guys that don't fit their "prince" mold.

Yep, there's also another term for such women...Mormon nuns.

Harker Family - Dating Information

[nephite1978]

I would definitely date a convert. Maybe because I'm a convert myself, I don't know.

But, what I don't understand is why we set all these outrageous standards about whom we will date. i.e. they must be a RM, must have blonde hair/blue eyes, must have been a memeber for x months/years, etc.

I tend to look at it along the lines of, "Who would Heavenly Father want me to date/marry?" When I pray to Him, I not only ask Him to bring her (whoever she may be) to me, but to inspire me as to who to date. If Heavenly Father thinks that she's good enough for me, then that's all I need!

Maybe the person that is struggling with an issue (be it WoW, tithing, whatever) is in need of something I have to offer? Maybe by their stuggles, I'll gain a better understanding of said principle? Not that I'm going to go out and date someone just because they're struggling (heck, we're all struggling with something!), but nor would I totally ignore them for that matter, either.

[StallionMcBeastly]

I would date a convert; especially if they where smokin'.

Haha but really, it would depend on how serious they are in the church and how they follow the standards. The past doesn't bother me if they have changed their ways.

[Islander]

The considerations are many; how old you are and the how old the convert/prospect? How long ago he/she converted? Is the convert endowed, hold a temple recommend, attend the temple faithfully? Is he/she divorced, widowed or unmarried? I mean, the picture is complex but I would consider a convert if I were single.

I would have my reservations about somebody that has problems, and this is just my personal opinion on the matter. Marriage is just the more difficult and complex endeveour a person can undertake. I would be stacking the deck against me from the beginning. It is a chance and a gamble that I may not be willing to take. Again, that is just how I see this issue.

Edited June 27, 2008 by Islander

[FunkyTown]

Hahah. I love these sorts of questions(I'm a convert) because it boils down to one simple thing:

Converts are seen as second-class citizens to people 'born in the covenant'. It's not intended and it's certainly not acted on, but it's definitely perceived by many. People treat me well, I'm respected and have friendships in the church, but I do hear these sorts of questions all the time. If it was irrelevant, we wouldn't hear the question. Nobody asks, "Would you date somebody who owned a blue shirt?" or "Would you marry someone who once made a matchbox car?" because those are perceived as irrelevant stats.

The simple truth is that it's perceived to be something wrong. It's understandable, though, because converts -don't- have the knowledge of the LDS culture. Converts -don't- know when to stand, when to sit or who is important in the church. They make social gaffes and mistakes and don't know the simplest things in the church that 'everyone knows' in your area.

It's something that's bound to happen in any social structure regardless of intentions - The outsider will always be treated differently because he -acts- differently.

[Islander]

Hahah. I love these sorts of questions(I'm a convert) because it boils down to one simple thing:

Converts are seen as second-class citizens to people 'born in the covenant'. It's not intended and it's certainly not acted on, but it's definitely perceived by many. People treat me well, I'm respected and have friendships in the church, but I do hear these sorts of questions all the time. If it was irrelevant, we wouldn't hear the question. Nobody asks, "Would you date somebody who owned a blue shirt?" or "Would you marry someone who once made a matchbox car?" because those are perceived as irrelevant stats.

The simple truth is that it's perceived to be something wrong. It's understandable, though, because converts -don't- have the knowledge of the LDS culture. Converts -don't- know when to stand, when to sit or who is important in the church. They make social gaffes and mistakes and don't know the simplest things in the church that 'everyone knows' in your area.

It's something that's bound to happen in any social structure regardless of intentions - The outsider will always be treated differently because he -acts- differently.

That is a very interesting perspective and experience that you share. I am also a convert and my experience has been totally the opposite. People are thrilled to hear the things I have gone thru to find and hold on the Gospel of Christ. They are amazed at my simple and transparent but also solidly anchored testimony I have of the Restoration and the priesthood. Many of my friends, born in the church lamented that they had a very benign conversion experience at age 18, 20 or so when they hear about my story of conversion. Many wish they had been trodden down under foot somehow before they could make a claim to the Atonement.

I have more friends in the church in 10 years than I thought possible or fair for a man to have. I was 29 and single when I was baptized and had no shortage of prospects, much younger girls mind you, and born in the church.

I suspect it varies from place to place and on many other factors. My HT companion a few years ago was a HS kid that got interested in the church while befriending a girl that was a member. He converted, baptized, received his priesthood, put in for a mission, went to Mongolia, baptized 200 people, came back married that girl and now he is the ECP at his ward in Boise. All in 4 years and being a convert. Many born in the church do not measure up to that. So I think that speaks for itself.

It is possible to hear meaningless chatter everywhere, I think It means that; very little and you should not worry much about it my brother. :)

Edited July 9, 2008 by Islander

[VisionOfLehi]

The Church is currently 25% convert.

That's a big number. I hope we're not treated poorly!

Often times when I make faux pas people would understand I didn't know better. They'd teach me, but they never seemed to judge me. I very often get thanks and appreciation for bearing my testimony.

[jadams_4040]

Hello...my friend and I were discussing this, and we thought we would get some guys opinions! Would you seriously date a convert to the LDS? Because, as you all know, once you join the Church, you get a "clean slate", and (for the most part) what you did in your previous life as non-LDS, is forgetten. So, knowing that a woman did not previously following the WoW regarding all of its teachings, would you consider dating or even possibly marrying and be sealed to that person? We are awaiting your responses!

Well, if i were young and single again. i would know that l.d.s women do comitt the very same sins and so forth as any other religon. I;E.... chastity,w.o.w, e.t.c....So it wouldnt make one bit of differance wheather she be a convert or not. just that she is truely commited to obeying the lords commandments now and temple works.:)

[MarginOfError]

Although I didn't end up marrying a convert, I did date several, and there's one in particular that if she had had any interest in me at all, I would very much like to have married. But anyway...

When I was dating, I made it a point not to look at their past, but how their past would affect their future.

As for dating only RM's...the girls (and guys) dumb enough to restrict themselves to this deserve what's coming to them. I was once at a youth activity where they separated the young men and young women. Each group got a talk from the Stake Young Women's president. She spoke to the young men for 20 minutes about how important it is to do well in school, get an education, serve missions, and prepare to become husbands and fathers after marrying in the temple. Then they brought in the young women and she gave a 20 minute talk about how important it is to marry a return missionary. Really, that's all she talked about for 20 minutes! I was livid, and it was all I could do not to jump up and down in the back of the chapel yelling, "I've served in the mission office. I know what stupid things elders do! Believe me, most of them really aren't anything special!"