Child Abuse? - Are some supporting abuse?

[WANDERER]

Admittedly I am showing both personal and cultural bias. I was a late bloomer at 16.

Culturally I also think there is a good case for being prepared for motherhood and it's responsibilities...educationally etc. Self-reliance is needed for: jobloss, death of spouse and so on. In an ideal world things would work idealistically. However, they do not.

However I can see the influence on countries and laws where the population is shifting and I think you may be right.

Edit: I agree with Elphie on the fact that it hurts little girls. This is not a factor of low nutrition causing complications...girls that are not physically developed enough will not fare well.

[Elphaba]

Also, I am not a big fan of teens getting pregnant but God did design females to be at their reproductive prime at 18.

No, it is not.

The best age for a woman to have a child is between 20 and 35. My gynecologist told me it was 23, but that was anedcotal.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Are you aware Miss Racelle

Do not address any woman on this board as "Miss," or any other title that is not part of her screen name, again.

Edit: I was not clear that I am referring to the rude way you addressed "Miss" Rachelle. Your belittling tone is unacceptable. You will not speak down to her, or any other woman, on this site.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

So you are saying a bragadocious (sp?) attitude and isolation are justification for a governmental order demanding they leave or be murdered?

No. I did not say that, and do not say that.

Their practice of polygamy IS one reason the early Saints were persecuted.

No, it was not. Joseph only declared its practice in 1843, even though he had been secretly practicing it for years. But this was only among the elite; most Saints did not even know about it until later.

By the time rumors of Joseph's polygamy became an issue, the Saints had already experienced many horrifying examples of persecution.

If you're referring to "The Expositor," that was not persecution. Everything written, though full of hyperbole, was essentially true. It had a different perspective, but the facts were fairly accurate. And the people who wrote it still believed in the Book of Mormon and the Church, and were extremely upset because they believed Joseph was a fallen prophet.

A little perspective goes a long way in helping to understand people's motivations.

And yes, to compare their terrors to what is happening with the FLDS in Texas is an insult to their memory. Your caustic comment is confusing, given your strong belief in Joseph Smith.

Spare me the "dishonor to their memory" bit.

Please change your tone.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

If you dan't base your morals on God then all you may be left with is societal preferences that can change in a generation.

Nonsense.

Educated, decent human beings know what hurts children and what doesn't. You don't need a god to tell you that.

Elphaba

[Fiannan]

No, it is not.

The best age for a woman to have a child is between 20 and 35. My gynecologist told me it was 23, but that was anedcotal.

Elphaba

Biologically, the ideal age to have a child would be 18-20...

Professor Carl Djerassi, inventor of the birth control pill and described in this article as one of the world's most eminent scientists.

Children without sex is what the future holds, claims inventor of the Pill | Mail Online

[Fiannan]

Nonsense.

Educated, decent human beings know what hurts children and what doesn't. You don't need a god to tell you that.

Elphaba

Do you have any studies to show that a teenager who gives birth suffers more than someone who is 20 or over? As for sex, if sex itself "hurts" (physically) if engaged in by a young teen then why are so many doing it witht their boyfriends as we speak?

I am not advocating sex for young teens but your reasoning is lacking. Also, without God all your personal opinions are nothing more than...personal opinions.

[Toady]

imho, the biggest point here is that these poor kiddies are deprived of their agency by being raised in a closed community where they are groomed aka brainwashed to believe that being married to an old man at a young age is their raison d'etre. At least teens who are having sex in the 'real world' are (for the most part, obvious situations aside) exercising their agency, although we may not agree with the choices they make.

[WillowTheWhisp]

brainwashed to believe that being married to an old man at a young age is their raison d'etre.

Here we go again. The perpetual Myth that all teenage FLDS girls are married to elderly husbands.

Besides, if I recall correctly, Mary was a virgin when she became pregnant. Therefore, there was no intercourse. Of course, pregnancy is unhealthy, and painful, for a 14-year-old girl. Hopefully it was not a long labor.

Labour and childbirth would have been a lot more strain on her body than intercourse for any 14 year old. I thought it was teen pregnancy which caused most physical problems.

[Fiannan]

imho, the biggest point here is that these poor kiddies are deprived of their agency by being raised in a closed community where they are groomed aka brainwashed to believe that being married to an old man at a young age is their raison d'etre. At least teens who are having sex in the 'real world' are (for the most part, obvious situations aside) exercising their agency, although we may not agree with the choices they make.

Now what's the latest statistic...isn't it like 25% of all teen females in the USA is currently infected with an STD? Wonder what the rate is in the FLDS community. Don't we brainwash girls in western society to base their self image on looks, designer clothing and eventually career? ANd we wonder why depression rates are so high among white teen females in America and Europe.

Look, there ultimately is only the free agency to choose God or not -- everything else is brainwashing. Few people look beyond what they learn in our biased educational system or media and generally conform to it.

Bernays pointed it out in "Propaganda" years ago and it's still true. Look it up online if you like. You can criticize the FLDS for this and that but if you criticize them for brainwashing then watch out for the old saying about stones and glass houses.

[prisonchaplain]

OK, wow and oh my! Perhaps this is getting too sophisticated. Some basic grounding may be needed.

1. It seems obvious now that the TX CPS overreacted, and the raid at the YFZ ranch was without due cause.

2. Any system of teaching that pressures young girls to bed much older men is reprehensible. In fact any system that pressures anyone to bed any particular person is ungodly.

3. Let's give TX the benefit of the doubt. The raid was based upon fear that children were being molested, not upon dislike for FLDS theology in general.

4. Quote me all the studies you want. In my good book, marriage is between a man and a woman, the TWO are to become one flesh, and what GOD (not some guru) has joined, let no one tear apart.

Bottom-line: Why must perverted adults steal childhood away from children?

[prisonchaplain]

Now what's the latest statistic...isn't it like 25% of all teen females in the USA is currently infected with an STD? Wonder what the rate is in the FLDS community. Don't we brainwash girls in western society to base their self image on looks, designer clothing and eventually career? ANd we wonder why depression rates are so high among white teen females in America and Europe.

The great immorality of western secular culture does not mitigate the great immorality of grooming and pressuring children into bedding much older adults. In fact, no one should be pressured to bed anyone.

[Elphaba]

Do you have any studies to show that a teenager who gives birth suffers more than someone who is 20 or over?

Yes, I do.

Wanderer provided such a study here: http://www.lds.net/forums/209307-post15.html.

Regarding sexual activity among very young women, this Psychology Today article provides risk factors that are very unhealthy:

“Among young girls, a partner's age is a risk factor for sexual activity. "The younger the girl is at the age of first intercourse, the more likely she is to have a much older partner," says Harold Leitenberg, Ph.D., a professor of psychology at the University of Vermont. His study, published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior, found that of 4,201 girls in 8th through 12th grades, those who lost their virginity between ages 11 and 12 tended to have partners five or more years older. For girls who had sex later in adolescence, the partner's age disparity was much smaller. Early sexual initiation was also associated with a number of behavioral problems. "Ignoring the age of the partners, the earlier a girl was when she first had intercourse, the greater her risk of suicide attempts, alcohol use, drug abuse, truancy and pregnancy," Leitenberg says.”

As for sex, if sex itself "hurts" (physically) if engaged in by a young teen then why are so many doing it with their boyfriends as we speak?

That is a good point. I suspect many of the young teens have sex, even if it is painful, so they won't lose their boyfriends. But I have no evidence for that. It is just my hunch.

Additionally, a significant number of young girls are performing oral sex rather than having intercourse. They believe it is “safer sex.”

http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20050404/1-in-5-young-teens-report-having-tried-oral-sex?page=3

I am not advocating sex for young teens

Yes, you are, every time you write yet another post about how Isaac and Mohammed did it, and we shouldn’t judge them because it was part of the culture. It did not hurt less 2000 years ago, but you keep ignoring that.

but your reasoning is lacking.

No, it is not, as I have shown with my links above.

Also, without God all your personal opinions are nothing more than...personal opinions.

As is yours.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Professor Carl Djerassi, inventor of the birth control pill and described in this article as one of the world's most eminent scientists.

Children without sex is what the future holds, claims inventor of the Pill | Mail Online

That was a fascinating article. Thanks for posting it.

He sees nothing wrong with technology making it possible for older women to have healthy babies.

It sounds like a wonderful advance in medicine, and better yet, it gives a child a better chance of being raised in stable and healthy environments, as it is wanted.

Elphaba

[ruthiechan]

Do not address any woman on this board as "Miss," or any other title that is not part of her screen name, again.

Elphaba

Whoa, why not? I have done that myself. Granted it has to do with the fact that when working in preschools everyone is Miss name. . . I do not understand why you find this a problem.

[Elphaba]

Whoa, why not? I have done that myself. Granted it has to do with the fact that when working in preschools everyone is Miss name. . . I do not understand why you find this a problem.

Hi Ruthie,

I'm sorry I wasn't clear when I wrote Kosher the post. I have edited it so I explain why what he said was inappropriate.

However, the following should help clear it up.

This is what Rachelle wrote:

Oh please. The bible teaches us to obey the law. If the law tells us that we shouldn't marry someone under a certain age, then we shouldn't do it. This isn't brain surgery.

You know, for someone who is so adamant that our judicial system isn't harsh enough on criminals, you sure seem to support the rights of sex offenders to break the law.

On another note, if Isaac came to me to ask for my ten year old's hand in marriage I would kick him in the groin. Nice to know you would offer yours up though.

This is Kosher’s response:

Are you aware Miss Racelle that, according to your church history, Joseph Smith also took several 14-16 year-old girls as wives under the threat of condemnation if the didn't consent to his proposal? Are you going to kick him in the groin when you meet him?

His use of “Miss” was rude and belittling. He was speaking down to her, not using it in a polite manner.

Thank you for bringing it to my attention that I had not explained this well.

Elphaba

[ruthiechan]

Ah, okay, that makes more sense now. Thank you for clarifying. :)

[WANDERER]

Granted it has to do with the fact that when working in preschools everyone is Miss name. . . I do not understand why you find this a problem.

LOL....that was decades ago when married women were not allowed to work. You will now find more Mrs than Misses. And during those times there were more Mrs than Misses and it was quite common for children to accidently use Mr as it is quite common now for Mrs.

I really don't want to get more graphic about the physical implications. Is that necessary. It is not pretty and I would rather not considering that this is a family friendly forum...it would only serve to close the post and I cannot post links.

[Fiannan]

Early sexual initiation was also associated with a number of behavioral problems. "Ignoring the age of the partners, the earlier a girl was when she first had intercourse, the greater her risk of suicide attempts, alcohol use, drug abuse, truancy and pregnancy," Leitenberg says.”

A huge variable missing there Elphaba...the men in this study are USING these young women -- they are not planning on making a lifelong or eternal commitment to them and their future children.

In Muslim nations today do you suppose young brides are commiting suicide (Muslims have a very low rate of suicide), abusing alcohol (yeah, right), drug use (again...), truancy (probalby no greater than other women in their villages), and pregnancy (well, yeah...and all the babies will know who their daddy is -- which is far less likely in western societies).

As for the FLDS or any other hyper-traditionalist group your study would likely not apply either.

PC wrote,

In my good book, marriage is between a man and a woman...

If you are saying that polygamy is wrong in your book then you certainly are not making reference to the Bible then.

[WANDERER]

Fistulas are the result from way-too-young child brides having sex. This is just genetic, they develop later. They are just too tiny. Can you think of anything more morally abhorrent than that. I can't.

[ruthiechan]

LOL....that was decades ago when married women were not allowed to work. You will now find more Mrs than Misses. And during those times there were more Mrs than Misses and it was quite common for children to accidently use Mr as it is quite common now for Mrs.

I really don't want to get more graphic about the physical implications. Is that necessary. It is not pretty and I would rather not considering that this is a family friendly forum...it would only serve to close the post and I cannot post links.

That's not what I was talking about.

In TODAYS preschools, at least the ones I and my colleagues have worked at, everyone working there was called Miss Ruth, or Miss Jen, Miss Tina, or Miss "insert name here". It is still rare these days to have men working in preschools. Even if you are married you are still Miss. This is done because it's easy for the kids to remember, gets them out of the habit of just calling you teacher, it's a respectful title, and first names are easier to remember but also implies a more personal relationship that parents like.

So, I was refering to my personal experience and why I personally will find myself calling people Miss *insert name* outside a preschool setting.

[Elphaba]

A huge variable missing there Elphaba...the men in this study are USING these young women -- they are not planning on making a lifelong or eternal commitment to them and their future children.

As usual, Fiannan, when given evidence proving you wrong, you shift the goal posts, and pretend it never happened.

With the exception of my post about Church history, and my post about FGM, ALL of my posts have been about Muslims and their practice of marrying you girls. I have not written ONE post about the FLDS.

You keep repeating your mantra that "Mohammed did it so it's okay," or some variation thereof.

You are wrong.

So, back to MY topic, which you want to ignore over and over and over again:

In Muslim nations today do you suppose young brides are commiting suicide (Muslims have a very low rate of suicide), abusing alcohol (yeah, right), drug use (again...), truancy (probalby no greater than other women in their villages), and pregnancy (well, yeah...and all the babies will know who their daddy is -- which is far less likely in western societies).

Do you ever actually do any research before you post?

I realize the following is a lot to read, but please do yourself a favor and read it anyway. You have so many misconceptions about Muslim practices of child marriages, and as I said above, your endless litany of "Mohammed did it, so it's okay," is irresponsible.

I didn't write this, so there's no reason to worry about me rambling.

Early Marriage, Child Spouses

During research commissioned by Save the Children Fund (UK), girls aged between 14 and 17 from different ethnic groups and castes in two villages in Surkhet District, Nepal, made the following observations on early marriage:

“My sister was married at 14 years old. She appealed to the school to stop the marriage, but to no avail.” 14 year old girl

“My parents married me to a man in Lekh. I had to work very hard but my parentsin-law didn’t recognize this. My husband beat me, so I don’t like to go to his house even though he will come to take me. I want to go to school.” 14 year old girl.

“I married due to my father’s pressure. I gave birth to a son, yet my family members encouraged me to go to school. I study more than others do. So my husband’s family members respect me.” 17 year old girl.

The girls were aware that early marriage was dangerous from a health perspective; that early pregnancy could threaten the health – even the lives – of mother and baby. Asked to give reasons for early marriage, the girls mentioned society’s refusal to accept unmarried pregnancies and sex outside marriage; failing school exams; neighbors’ gossip; the heavy workload in their parents’ home and the dream of love, good food, nice clothes and seeing new places after marriage.

Many girls felt that marriage and motherhood would provide them with safety, a sense of security and better status. The girls felt that their value and status were low because they would belong to their husband’s family and because daughters do not inherit parental property. They all said they had been happy until the age of 10 because they could play as they liked without any work or restrictions on their mobility. Now they wanted to continue their studies but found it hard to do so due to their heavy household workloads.

From report of research conducted by Irada Gautam for Save the Children (UK) in Surkhet

Violence and abandonment

The UK working group on forced marriage found that many of the victims of this practice suffered from prolonged domestic violence, but felt unable to leave the marriage because of economic pressures, lack of family support and other social circumstances.133

Many cases of self harm and suicide among British women of South Asian origin were thought to be linked to forced marriage. If a woman did feel able to challenge the situation, it often took her years to do so. If this is happening in a society where forced marriage is not the norm, it is safe to assume that such a challenge is far less likely from a girl in an environment where early and forced marriages are commonplace.

Most available information on violent abuse is anecdotal, consisting of interviews with girls who have suffered trauma as a result of their marriages. However, DHS data from Egypt has found that 29 per cent of married adolescents have been beaten by their husband (or husband and others), and of these 41 per cent have been beaten during pregnancy.134

A study in Jordan, published in 2000 found that 26 per cent of reported cases of domestic violence were committed against wives under 18.135

Some girls in brutal marriages become desperate enough to run away.136 Those who do so, and those who choose a marriage partner against the wishes of their parents, may be punished, or even killed by their family. These girls run the risk of the ‘honour killings’ that occur in Bangladesh, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Pakistan, Turkey and elsewhere.137

Early marriage is often linked to wife abandonment, as shown by its association with divorce and separation.138 Violent behaviour towards a wife, including coercive sex, plays a major role in marital breakdown. In Java, it has been found that girls who marry early are three times more likely to be divorced than those married later.139

A study in Calcutta found that sexual violence in marriage is associated with a greater likelihood of separation than physical violence alone.140

Divorce or abandonment often plunges a woman into poverty, as she usually assumes sole responsibility for dependent children. If she married young, is under-educated and has few income-generating skills, her poverty may be acute. Studies of young mothers in Latin America and the Caribbean found that they are more likely to be disadvantaged later in life; in Mexico they are six times more likely to be living in poverty than those who postponed childbearing.141

Thus early marriage contributes to the ‘feminization of poverty’ and its resulting impact on children.

Adolescent health and reproduction

The notion of good reproductive health covers all aspects of the reproduction process – including a satisfying and safe experience of sexual relations, the capability to reproduce, and the freedom to decide if and when to bear a child.93 The right not to engage in sexual relations and the right to exercise control over reproduction may both be violated by early marriage.

Sexual relations

In the case of girls married before puberty, the normal understanding between families is that there will be no sexual intercourse until first menstruation. In Gojam Ethiopia, husband and wife may grow up playing together in the house of his parents. In this case, the mother-in-law must protect the girl from any advances by her son.94 This is also true in West African countries.95

However, this protection may fail, especially where the husband is much older than the girl. Cases of forced intercourse by much older and physically fully developed husbands with wives as young as eight have been reported.96

For the vast majority of under-educated rural adolescent girls in the developing world, marriage remains the likely context for sexual intercourse.97 And while an unmarried teenage girl may find it difficult to resist unwanted sexual advances, her married sister may find it impossible.

Researchers have tended to focus on adolescent sexuality outside marriage, or have made no distinction between married and unmarried adolescents. This means that there are only limited data about sexual experience among married adolescents; the assumption prevails that sex within marriage is a priori consensual.

A 1997 study among women in Calcutta found that half had been married at or below the age of 15, and that this group were highly vulnerable to sexual violence in marriage. In 80 per cent of cases where these young wives informed their husbands of their unwillingness to endure sexual violence, they were ignored.98

Pain and trauma are enhanced where girls have undergone some form of FGM, especially where this has been undertaken recently, and especially in the case of infibulation which is designed to make penetration difficult. Problems may be exacerbated after childbirth. In many societies, and in many millions of individual cases, women have no choice but to resume sexual relations within two or three days of childbirth, even if there has been vaginal cutting during delivery, and regardless of the pain it causes.99

Access to contraception and reproductive health advice

Very few girls in early marriages in developing countries have access to contraception; nor would delayed pregnancy necessarily be acceptable to many husbands and in-laws.100 Indeed, in many societies, childbearing soon after marriage is integral to a woman’s social status. In Yemen, 11 per cent of wives aged 15-29 stated that they did not use contraception because of their husbands’ opposition.101 In almost all Asian countries the family exerts strong pressure on the newly-married couple to begin childbearing quickly.102

In Cameroon, Mali and Nigeria, the modern contraceptive usage rates among married 15-19 year olds are only 1.5, 2.4 and 0.6 per cent respectively. 103 The girls’ right to have any say over when and if they should become pregnant is unacknowledged, and their chances of early pregnancy are high.

Analysis of DHS data indicates that the first birth usually occurs within 14-26 months of arriage, although it may be slightly longer where age of marriage is very low, as in Bangladesh.104

Teenage girls are also more susceptible than more mature women to sexually transmitted infections (STIs), including HIV. This is the result of both biological factors, such as hormonal fluctuations and the permeability of vaginal tissue, and social factors, such as skewed power relations between women and men that make it difficult for girls and young women to negotiate safe sex. STIs can lead to infertility, and in the case of HIV, the outcome is premature mortality and risks of transmission to the foetus. In a recent study in Rwanda, 25 per cent of girls who became pregnant at 17 or younger were infected with HIV, although many reported having sex only with their husbands. According to the study, the younger the age at sexual intercourse and first pregnancy, the higher the incidence of HIV infection.105

As far as preparation of both girls and boys for sexual and reproductive life is concerned, there has been deep resistance in many developing countries to sex education in the classroom for fear of promoting promiscuity. The threat of HIV/AIDS has reduced this opposition to some extent, but there is little prospect at present of girls receiving education on what to expect, or about their rights in terms of marriage or reproduction. Moreover, classroom education does not reach children who are not in school. For example, according to data from Sri Lanka published in 1990, one-third of young adults between ages 16 and 24 did not know the duration of a normal pregnancy.

Less than 5 per cent had discussed reproductive health with their parents.106

There are still a number of countries where reproductive health services are barred to adolescents, or require them to have reached a certain age.107 This excludes many married adolescents in countries such as Zambia or Bangladesh where age limits are in force – another of the anomalies surrounding early marriage.

As for the FLDS or any other hyper-traditionalist group your study would likely not apply either.

My focus has always been on older men marrying young girls. Once again, as always, you divert the conversation to something I never discussed.

This study will apply to any society that allows young women to marry older men. I'm sorry you don't like that thought, but all of the studies indicate the young women are seriously, and badly, affected by these marriages.

Until you get over your "Mohammed did it so it's okay" kick, you are never going to understand how dangerous these lifestyles are for not only young women, but for the women they grow up to be. That is, if they survive.

Elphaba

PS: There is so much more. If you have any integrity at all, you will read it, because you keep saying child brides, including 18-year-olds, are not affected by Muslim practices. You are wrong.

http://www.rightsathome.org/docs/marriage/Innocenti.pdf

[Elphaba]

Apples and Oranges. YHWH never commanded females circumcision but He did approve of Isaac's marriage.

No it is not apples and oranges.

Fiannan keeps insisting that because the culture condones the practice, it is okay.

Hundreds of cultures condone female genitalia mutilation, on very young girls.

Therefore, according to Fiannan's position, FGM should be acceptable.

I understand my post described the practice and its horrors. However, the gist of it was that the cultures condoned it, not the practice itself.

So, no it is not apples and oranges. It is mountains and mountains.

Elphaba

[ruthiechan]

Elphaba, is the information you posted in the .pdf you linked or from some place else?

[KosherXMorg]

No it is not apples and oranges.

Fiannan keeps insisting that because the culture condones the practice, it is okay.

Hundreds of cultures condone female genitalia mutilation, on very young girls.

Therefore, according to Fiannan's position, FGM should be acceptable.

I understand my post described the practice and its horrors. However, the gist of it was that the cultures condoned it, not the practice itself.

So, no it is not apples and oranges. It is mountains and mountains.

Elphaba

You misinterpreting his posts and coming to a false conclusion, but I think you know that.