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omega0401

Same-Sex Marriage and the Persecution of Civil Society

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(Edited to change the link to go directly to the full story)

The following link is to a very interesting story about Same-Sex Marriage and the Persecution of Civil Society. It brings up some very interesting points about the direction our society is heading.

Same-Sex Marriage and the Persecution of Civil Society

Some of my thoughts on the article...Have we now lost part of our freedom? To allow others their free agency to commit sin is one thing but to force us to contribute in their sin – doesn't that take away our free agency not to be apart of someone else's sin? Just when did we allow our government to force us to partake of something we view as morally and religiously wrong and which we do not want to partake of?

How are we contributing in their sin? Will all churches be force to marry gays? Will all teachers in all church owned schools be forced to teach that gay relationships are not a sin but acceptable? Will all doctors be forced to perform an artificial insemination on lesbian couples? Will a photographer be forced to participate in a Gay marriage by taking photographs of the event or be sued for discrimination? Will all these be forced on us regardless of our moral or religious beliefs? Have state governments started rewriting God's commandments? I fear this is just the beginning.

We are living in the last days, but still, let's pray that the Marriage Amendment in California passes! I live in California and my family and I are voting for it. If it fails, I believe it will affect the whole country.

Edited by omega0401

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It is not about gays but rather the people votes were overruled. It is about teaching my children at school about same sex gender when it is my responsibility to teach my own children and not the state or nation. It is about the same scenario which brought down five cities of the plain where Abraham lived from a beauty to a rigid decay filled society. It is about allowing one special interest group having its way and then another, then another. Where does it stop? The Lord will come and intervene. Am I right to say this?

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Sometimes I think that the people's votes should be overruled. The vast majority of the US probably would have voted to deny African Americans and women their rights at one point too. Good thing some people, however small the number was in the beginning, saw how silly that was.

I agree that homosexuality is a sin. However, certain religious groups consider it a sin to eat pork. What if they were the majority in the US? Would it be fair for them to ban the consumption of pork products based on their beliefs?

Of course not. Why? Because in a society that values freedom of religion we shouldn't create policies based on religious doctrine alone. Not everyone in the US believes that homosexual activity is a sin, and the only reason anyone can come up with against homosexuals marrying is that it's sinful. That to me is simply not a good enough reason.

Why is it that heterosexual couples can marry dozens of times or have drunken Vegas weddings and get annulments the very next day? How is that respecting the sanctity of marriage? It certainly isn't, but we just roll our eyes and say "it's not our business" when stuff like that happens. I certainly don't think that homosexuals marrying is any of our business.

As for them getting married in the church, that's something that cannot legally be breached as that would be a violation of church and state. Homosexuals can whine and complain about it all they want, but the government cannot tell a church official who they can marry. That's why we have secular justices of the peace. If a church WANTS to marry homosexuals then that's their prerogative. But nobody is going to hold one of our bishops down and force them to sign a marriage license.

Why is everyone so terrified of gays infiltrating their church and school anyway? They aren't contagious, it's not like we are all going to catch the "gay" virus if their marriage is legal. I don't recall turning black when learning about the Civil War, or turning into a Nazi when being taught about the Holocaust.

However, the subject just shouldn't be broached in school public school for the same reason that homosexual marriage should be legal. Because not everyone believes that it's okay and it's unfair to shove beliefs down people's throat.

If you do your job as a parent correctly, then when your children hear about homosexuality being "normal and acceptable" then they will either debate it in an intelligent and respectful manner, or laugh it off as rubbish and go on with their lives.

If children become traumatized by someone talking about homosexuals in their presence then they are going to have a rough time in the world.

I certainly understand your concerns about this hemi. It's often difficult in a world so full of sin to sit back and watch be legalized on your tv. In my opinion, God will not be mocked and homosexuals will certainly change their mind about their lifestyles a few moments after they pass away.....

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Yeah I think you missed the point that I believe Hemi was trying to make. While I don't think homosexuals should be allowed to marry the point is that if we let government tell us what we can and can't do we become slaves to that government.

We just had a lesson in Sunday School about the last few chapters in Mosiah. The reason that Mosiah decided to turn the government over to the judges was because the fear that an unrighteous king would dictate what the people could or couldn't do. Now I know we don't have a king but we do have quite a number of judges that would like us to think that they now are better at deciding what is best for us. Remember we have no say in who gets appointed to be a judge for the most part.

Now I will direct you to Mosiah 29:27

27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land.

Let's let the voice of the people bring about our destruction rather then the voice of a few judges who consider their opinions better for us then our own. At least the people at this point still seem to side with what is right as shown by the multiple votes cast against gay marriage. When the voice of the people is lost the country is lost.

So I see this as way more then gay marriage. Gay marriage is simply the vehicle which will seal the fate of whether or not WE THE PEOPLE still exists.

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Yeah I think you missed the point that I believe Hemi was trying to make. While I don't think homosexuals should be allowed to marry the point is that if we let government tell us what we can and can't do we become slaves to that government. .

You are not a homosexual, therefore the government isn't telling you that you can or can't do anything.

I think you are right, i'm still not seeing your point. Perhaps you could rephrase it?

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The following link is to a very interesting story about Same-Sex Marriage and the Persecution of Civil Society. It brings up some very interesting points about the direction our society is heading.

Allowing homosexuals - fellow US citizens - to exercise the same freedom to marry that heterosexual couples enjoy is a persecution of civil society? You can't be serious. How?

Some of my thoughts on the article...Have we now lost part of our freedom? To allow others their free agency to commit sin is one thing but to force us to contribute in their sin – doesn't that take away our free agency not to be apart of someone else's sin?

Holy smokes. This makes no sense. I guess the answer to your question (is it really a question) is an enthusiastic NO WAY. First and foremost, no one is forcing "us to contribute in their sin" by any stretch of the imagination.

How did you arrive at such a conclusion?

Just when did we allow our government to force us to partake of something we view as morally and religiously wrong and which we do not want to partake of?

Never. No one is forcing you to attend a gay couples wedding. No one is forcing you to watch them have intercourse. No one is forcing you to partake of anything. I can't believe the irrationality, intolerance, and ignorance being displayed here. Truly a sad sight to behold.

How are we contributing in their sin?

I asked you this question.

Will all churches be force to marry gays?

No. And you can't honestly believe that they would be.

Will all teachers in all church owned schools be forced to teach that gay relationships are not a sin but acceptable?

No. Are teachers in church owned schools forced to teach that gay relationships are sinful?

Will all doctors be forced to perform an artificial insemination on lesbian couples?

You are posting in the United States, right? You know this is a free country, don't you? Why are you insinuating that this is a step towards communism? Propaganda? Shock value? Attention grabbing? You honestly can't believe what you type. I hope you don't.

Will a photographer be forced to participate in a Gay marriage by taking photographs of the event or be sued for discrimination? Will all these be forced on us regardless of our moral or religious beliefs?

Sigh. This is so dissapointing. Might I say that this poster and his/her comments are not representative of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, it's members, former members, future members, Christianity in part or in whole, or Americans in general. Sorry, but I really needed to put some distance between your opinion and mine. I would never want people to think I agreed with your hateful post.

Have state governments started rewriting God's commandments? I fear this is just the beginning.

I really doubt even YOU believe this.

We are living in the last days, but still, let's pray that the Marriage Amendment in California passes!

We have been living in the last days for thousands of years. Every generation has thought theirs was the last days.

I live in California and my family and I are voting for it. If it fails, I believe it will affect the whole country.

How on God's green Earth would it affect the whole country? Are you aware of Shirley Phelps Roper? Do a google search, and take a good hard luck at the company you are in. :angrytongue:

It is not about gays but rather the people votes were overruled.

No, it's about intolerance. You are clearly intolerant of others beliefs, yet you expect people to tolerate yours. You expect to live in a free country, yet you want it to conform to your standards. Would that be hypocritical?

It is about teaching my children at school about same sex gender when it is my responsibility to teach my own children and not the state or nation.

Nothing in the court ruling even hinted at revising school curriculum. This is a straw man argument. You are right' date=' it is your responsibility to teach and care for your own children. So do it. If you don't want the state to teach your children, I hope you aren't sending them to public school.

It is about allowing one special interest group having its way and then another, then another. Where does it stop? The Lord will come and intervene. Am I right to say this?

You are so wrong. If the Lord is going to intervene, why do you feel the need to?

So I see this as way more then gay marriage. Gay marriage is simply the vehicle which will seal the fate of whether or not WE THE PEOPLE still exists.

My goodness. A little dramatic, eh? Holy smokes. I can't believe some people really think homosexuality is the great moral crisis of our time. I'm glad to see other members that are a little more tolerant, Christlike, and respectful of our country's freedom.

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In Canada pastors have gotten in trouble for preaching homosexuality is a sin. Talk radio hosts have to be very careful of how they phrase issues relating to everything from homosexuality to Islam due to the laws in force in Canada. Same thing could happen here.

While I am of the opinion that if we can see the family in the context of a human body then gay marriage is akin to having a splinter stuck in your toe while liberalized divorce laws is akin to your other leg rotting off with gangreen infection I still oppose gay marriage. My main reasons are that it makes homosexual relations equal to heterosexual and while today's PC climate seems to encourage us to think in those terms I think some institutions need to remain in the traditional sense. The other reason is that in the Bible, the Talmud, the Book of Mormon and the Koran marriage is something entered into by opposite-sex parties.

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Actually, legalizing same-sex marriage may be the most visual sign we are in the last days...

Same sex marriage comments from a Rabbi

How same-sex marriage points to end of the world

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: May 20, 2008

1:00 am Eastern

© 2008

What do May 17, 2004, and May 15, 2008, have in common? One judge and

a redefinition of marriage against the will of the people.

Both the Massachusetts Superior Court and the California Supreme Court

by a one-judge margin redefined what marriage has always been in every

culture and every religion for more than 5,000 years of recorded history.

Why does this matter?

As I wrote about in my book, "The Criminalization of Christianity,"

Jeffrey Satinover, who holds an M.D. from Princeton and doctorates

from Yale, MIT and Harvard, was on my radio program one day and I

asked him about where we are in history. He explained that according

to the "Babylonian Talmud" – the book of rabbis' interpretation of the

scriptures 1,000 years before Christ, there was only one time in

history that reflects where we are right now. There was only one time

in history, according to these writings, where men were given in

marriage to men, and women given in marriage to women.

(Column continues below)

Want to venture a guess as to when? No, it wasn't in Sodom and

Gomorrah, although that was my guess. Homosexuality was rampant there,

of course, but according to the Talmud, not homosexual "marriage."

What about ancient Greece? Rome? No. Babylon? No again. The one time

in history when homosexual "marriage" was practiced was … during the

days of Noah. And according to Satinover, that's what the "Babylonian

Talmud" attributes as the final straw that led to the Flood.

On my Faith2Action radio program on Thursday, Rabbi Aryeh Spero

verified this to be true.

Rabbi Spero spoke of God's compassion before the Flood, in hopes

people would repent and turn back to His ways. He showed patience for

hundreds of years.

But, he said, the Talmud's writings reveal that "before the Flood

people started to write marriage contracts between men, in other

words, homosexual 'marriage,' which is more than homosexual activity –

it's giving an official state stamp of approval, a sanctification … of

homosexual partnership."

In fact, he said, "the writings indicated that it wasn't even so much

the 'straw that broke the camel's back,' but that the sin in and of

itself is so contrary to why God created the world, so contrary to the

order of God's nature, that God said then and there 'I have to start

all over … to annihilate the world and start from the beginning. …'"

Rabbi Spero went on to say, "Even in ancient Greece they did not write

marriage contracts between men. There was homosexuality, and it was

wrong, but there was not an official 'blessed' policy. … Marriage is

'sanctification' (not simply a partnership)." He said to confer the

title of sanctification and holiness upon this behavior is "probably

one of the greatest sins of all that one does against God's plan for

this world."

The one time it happened was: "During the days of Noah." When I first

heard this, my mind immediately went to a verse I've heard many times

but never with such relevance. The verse is found in Matthew 24:37. It

reads:

As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son

of Man. – Mathew 24:37 (NIV)

I used to read this verse and think: It was bad at lots of points in

history; it doesn't necessarily mean now, but if these Jewish writings

are true, we are uniquely like the "days of Noah" right now – and only

right now.

But it can't be yet, you say. You have a lot going on in your life?

You're getting married? Here's how the New Living Translation

describes that very sentiment in Luke:

When the Son of Man returns, the world will be like the people were in

Noah's day. In those days before the Flood, the people enjoyed

banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered

his boat, and the flood came to destroy them all. – Luke 17:26-27

Happily going about as if everything was fine was what they did, too.

You don't like this possibility? Don't even believe in the Flood?

Doesn't matter. Some things are true whether you believe them or not.

How can you be sure? There's a way. Did you know that about one-fourth

of the Bible is prophecy? A quarter of the Bible is a lot – it's a big

book. And did you know God's standard? Perfection. That means that if

even one of those prophecies is wrong, you can discount the whole

thing. Kind of like a prophet who makes a false prediction – that made

him a false prophet and a candidate for stoning. Did you know that

4,000 prophecies in that Bible have already come true down to the last

detail? That leaves about 1,000 left to be fulfilled – those are the

ones regarding the last days before the return of Christ, which are

being checked off the list right now.

If 4,000 out of 5,000 prophecies have already occurred exactly as the

Bible predicted they would, you might want to pay attention to the rest.

The good news is that 1.1 million people across California have signed

a petition to bring marriage to a vote of the people through a state

constitutional amendment (just like 27 other states have done). And

guess what? An amendment to a state constitution trumps even the most

out-of-control state judiciary. We'll likely know if these signatures

are validated before this tyrannical ruling goes into effect, and I

predict they will be since they gathered 400,000 more signatures more

than they needed to qualify. Besides, they already voted – eight years

ago where more than 61 percent of Californians declared marriage as

the union of a man and a woman. Now they just need to turn that same

language into a constitutional amendment.

I don't live in California, so why am I sounding the alarm? Here's why:

But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the

trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes

any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his

blood I will require at the watchman's hand. – Ezekiel 33:6

I'm praying and working to protect marriage in California (and the

rest of the country) not only because I care about marriage, but

because I care about civilization. And, if we obey God, he just may

spare us from the judgment we deserve.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...p?pageId=64769

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Actually, legalizing same-sex marriage may be the most visual sign we are in the last days...

With all due respect, the rabbi relies on more than a few assumptions. I really don't understand what the big fuss is. Don't people rejoice at the thought of the second coming? Why not just let the sinners sin and allow God to intervene?

Seems like people are just uncomfortable seeing two men together. I have shared the same sentiments as some other anti-Homosexuals here in the past, I'm sorry to admit. But I grew out of it. Live and let live is a great way to, well, live.

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I guess I understand the live and let live philosophy. I suppose it may be said, choose and let choose. But we are at war. It is a moral war. A war for what is right against a force that is determined to destroy all that is good and pure and right thru the deception and corruption of the hearts of the children of men.

If you or I were at war, would you let your enemy kill as many as they wanted while you sat by and let them? Or would you fight to save as many as you could?

We can't control others. But we can let our voices be heard. "As for me and my house, we will choose the Lord."

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I guess I understand the live and let live philosophy. I suppose it may be said, choose and let choose. But we are at war. It is a moral war. A war for what is right against a force that is determined to destroy all that is good and pure and right thru the deception and corruption of the hearts of the children of men.

If you or I were at war, would you let your enemy kill as many as they wanted while you sat by and let them? Or would you fight to save as many as you could?

We can't control others. But we can let our voices be heard. "As for me and my house, we will choose the Lord."

I think saying that we are at war is almost on the verge of irrationality. So you would rather live in a country that does not respect personal freedoms, but rather one specific belief system? A theocracy?

I don't find myself at war with homosexuals, or anyone really. Perhaps myself and my own self-defeating habits.

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I think saying that we are at war is almost on the verge of irrationality. So you would rather live in a country that does not respect personal freedoms, but rather one specific belief system? A theocracy?

I don't find myself at war with homosexuals, or anyone really. Perhaps myself and my own self-defeating habits.

I don't find myself at war with other people either. Absolutely war with self is paramount. But we can fight against lies and immorality. The lifestyle is immoral, imo. But I love these people. Some of them, gosh, they are the best friends anyone could ask for! But can I support immorality? I can't and still be a person of integrity. Does that make sense?

Absolutely do I want to be in a country that respects personal freedoms. But I also want to be in a country that has a sense of morality. The US constitution was, whether we like it or not, created on the basis of such moral and religious assumption. And it will fall if the people are not righteous. Whether people understand or accept this principle or not, I think it is the responsibility of all of us to stand up for right.

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Homosexual marriage will cause the downfall of society. Well it certainly hasn't caused the downfall of society in Europe and Canada. Big deal if they marry. Their marriages do not effect anyone else.

I can see the plight of those who want or need the legal blessings of marriage. I don't see the need to compromise the principles of marriage to provide those opportunities. I think their is much we can do to meet needs of a free and tolerant society without compromising moral values.

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I can see the plight of those who want or need the legal blessings of marriage.

I wrote an essay on this very subject almost 2 years ago, yet it seems to be quite applicable now.

It's currently posted at another website, but heck, I'll post it to my blog here. If I can figure out how. Check it out. :cool:

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I wrote an essay on this very subject almost 2 years ago, yet it seems to be quite applicable now.

It's currently posted at another website, but heck, I'll post it to my blog here. If I can figure out how. Check it out. :cool:

Sure!

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I'm not really sure how the Blogging here works. I guess blogs don't appear on personal profiles? Well, I posted it to the Blogs section. It's called A Proposal for Same-Sex Marriage.

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I'm not really sure how the Blogging here works. I guess blogs don't appear on personal profiles? Well, I posted it to the Blogs section. It's called A Proposal for Same-Sex Marriage.

Thanks. I will give it a look-see. Careful though. I might have to throw in an opinion or two. :)

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In Canada pastors have gotten in trouble for preaching homosexuality is a sin. Talk radio hosts have to be very careful of how they phrase issues relating to everything from homosexuality to Islam due to the laws in force in Canada. Same thing could happen here.

While I am of the opinion that if we can see the family in the context of a human body then gay marriage is akin to having a splinter stuck in your toe while liberalized divorce laws is akin to your other leg rotting off with gangreen infection I still oppose gay marriage. My main reasons are that it makes homosexual relations equal to heterosexual and while today's PC climate seems to encourage us to think in those terms I think some institutions need to remain in the traditional sense. The other reason is that in the Bible, the Talmud, the Book of Mormon and the Koran marriage is something entered into by opposite-sex parties.

I don't know much about Canada, but do they have laws like ours for the freedom of religion and speech? If they do not, then that would explain why that would happen. I really should learn more about Canada, it often seems like everything is peaches and cream in their country but i'm starting to hear more and more about things like you've mentioned.

If they do have laws like ours, then that's nonsense. In my opinion if a minister wants to give a sermon naked and preach that cows are a tool of Satan then he should certainly be free to do it in the privacy of his respective church. So long as what they are saying doesn't promote physically harming or harassing anyone then they should be allowed to say whatever they please in church.

Somebody mentioned the Phelps family as well, those people promote the death of anyone who isn't in their incestuous little band of idiots and yet our government has only on one or two occasions stepped in and said "that's enough". If the US legal system can show restraint when it comes to people badmouthing and harassing our soldiers for the sake of upholding our freedom of speech and religion then I think that surely they can do so for other churches.

Fian, you mentioned the overwhelming display of political-correctness in the direction of the Islam faith and I have to ask, do you listen to Mancow's Morning Madhouse? It's a radio show that I think you may enjoy if you don't already.

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