Nice Guys

[Islander]

In organizational systems we avoid saying "fault" since it leaves you no choice than to find the culprit and "punish" him/her rather than addressing the issue. We like to talk about "contributions" to a problem/issue.

Difficult as it is to recognize, we "contribute" to our own problems. We are the ones that pick these people that end up hurting us and turning our lives upside down. For whatever reasons, we are attracted to this low quality people and we fantasize way too much instead of dealing with the reality of things. We are the ones that compromise in order to get what we want (looks, money, status) and thus we must pay the price. Heartache, disappointment, pain, frustration, anxiety...you name it.

Since the cycle tends to repeat itself until we finally figure out the issue, there is very little we (those outside, friends, family) can do to help. The problem is not visible to those involved. What they are experiencing are the symptoms of the problem. And even if it was visible to some degree, they have no insight into it.

So, like grandma just to say; "it is not that all the bananas are rotten son, you just don't know how to pick them." Just a thought.

[Gatsby]

This is a blog I posted I while ago. Let's get the LDS perspective.

I honestly can not count the number of times I have heard girls announce their frustration about how they can't find any nice guys, that all men are selfish pigs, and all they want is a guy that will treat them well. It is a rarity when I am around women who are talking about men and these opinions are not unanimously agreed on. I suppose you can all guess where this is going, but obviously it has not been said enough because nothing has changed.

Flaw 1) If you are looking for a nice guy, bars or clubs generally aren't the best places to begin your search. Is it really necessary for me to say that?

Flaw 2) Women, admit it, you are attracted to high-testosterone, assertive, take-charge type guys. If a guy is controlled primarily by selfishness and hormones (aka: jerks), what do you expect? Thoughtful consideration of your feelings in your times of need? Yeah, right... Besides, those kinds of guys get fat and bald much faster than those who have more self-control (just in case preserving your emotional health and self esteem wasn't motivation enough).

Flaw 3) Stop making the same mistakes. If someone you date ends up being a jerk, don't date his friends. I guarantee he is the same. If you don't like the guys you have found in one location/group, change locations/groups! Same is true for personality traits.

Flaw 4) I read a quote recently about how women nowadays "castrate the horse, then tell it to be a stallion." We can either be kind and considerate or we can be macho and take-charge, not both. Please make up your minds.

Flaw 5) If he only goes for the dumb, hot chicks, odds are he is shallow. Don't encourage him by compromising yourself to meet what he wants. Let them be. They deserve each other. Their kind will eventually die out anyway - Darwinism.

Cure) I am sure that the small percentage of women that actually got all the way through this blog without deleting my "friend" status with them is curious as how to cure this social epidemic. Where is one to find nice guys? That is really quite easy, actually. I compiled a few methods:

1) Go through your list of friends' phone numbers on a Friday/Saturday night. The nice guys will be the ones that are home to answer the phone. Either that or their line will be busy with them listening to the tears of a friend. Leave a message, he will call you back. Really.

2) When he talks to you, he spends more time looking at what is above your neck instead of below.

3) Ask him what your favorite food/song/movie is. That would be easy for someone that has taken the time to learn about you and care enough to remember (likely because he wants to surprise you with some meaningful gift etc. later on).

4) Try to picture in your mind your "best guy friend(s)" and "we are like brother/sister" type friend(s) because you "can always talk to him" and "trust him with anything". Yes, those guys that you never even considered because he doesn't have that "unapproachable" type of appeal that women crave so much. I guarentee he is perfectly capable of becoming that "unapproachable" type of guy for you, but he doesn't do it because your feelings are more important to him than inflating his ego. That is why he has spent so much of his time on the phone listening to your crying about how hard your life is because you keep making the same mistakes. You don't like hearing a guy you have a crush on talking to you about his love life with other girls. We don't like it either, but the nice ones will listen anyway. Then, over and over again, you will find another guy and your friend's time and services will no longer be necessary... until you get hurt again by another jerk.

I could continue for a long, long time, but this is more than enough to get you girls going on your "starter's course" to dating success. I hope you have enjoyed this sneak peek into guys' views on dating. You have a phone. Practice starts now. Ready... go!

Nice guys can sometimes be too passive. I've learned that girls in general like men who are confident. You just got to be yourself, & know how to be a good flirt, seriously.

A quote comes to mind:

"Women are made to be loved not understood." - Oscar Wilde

Women, I've learned(and I can't speak for all women) don't care about looks or money.

[checkerboy]

Women, I've learned(and I can't speak for all women) don't care about looks or money.

Well I can tell you women from the Valley must care about those cause I don't have either and none of them will talk to me.

[Misshalfway]

Women care about looks and money. I guarantee that and lack of personal hygiene and attention to personal finance is indeed a turn off! But they don't trump our desire for what is real on the inside and real in terms of showing up to the relationship with meaningful and rewarding contribution.

I think we do like confident men. It makes us feel safe. And we really like that!!!!

[beefche]

Ok, I'll say it. I care about looks and money. Looks as in if they at least try to care about how they look. I'm not talking about looking like Brad Pitt, but rather not dressing in dirty, wrinkled clothes, combing or styling the hair, etc. Just caring for basic hygiene and outside appearance. Sorry, but stained white shirts at church just doesn't do it for me.

I care about money in that I want to see him having/wanting a job that can support a family. Doesn't have to be rich, but if he is happy in his job and able to financially support a family (even in a small house with no cable :)) that would do for me. I just have a problem with someone who chooses to work at Walmart and not even try to find a better job. If he's working at Walmart and going to school to get more education for a better job, then that's a different story. I've worked hard in my career, yet I'm not wealthy and don't expect to marry someone wealthy. But I need financial security (as much as one can have in this day and age). Again, struggles happen to all of us--that's to be expected. But, I would also expect him to struggle to find a better job or to find a solution to the problem.

I really think too many people have grown up to Disney over the years. Too many frogs looking for Prince Charming or "insert princess of choice--Ariel, Cinderella, Jasmine, etc."

[Misshalfway]

I think beauty and handsomeness, as the case may be, have more to do with what is going on inside of a person. It isn't the look that is really attractive. I have met many pretty men, only to smell the stench of self absorption. I have also met the more garden variety and found them to be so handsome and sexy and irresistible because of that little intangible something shining from the inside.

Don't you guys see the same in women? All the looks are just hooks anyway. At the end of the day, we all wash off the makeup and take off the shoes.

[ampat777]

Women care about looks and money. I guarantee that and lack of personal hygiene and attention to personal finance is indeed a turn off!

I think we do like confident men. It makes us feel safe.

I agree on the hygiene and the confidence. I don´t agree on the rest. As for me I don´t want someone who just looks at my financial situation or looks. I want someone to LOVE me with all I have and don´t have.

[Misshalfway]

It is not about what you do or don't have. It is about what you do with what you have. That was my point -- lack of attention to personal finance, not better be rich or you are off my list!

[checkerboy]

Don't you guys see the same in women? All the looks are just hooks anyway. At the end of the day, we all wash off the makeup and take off the shoes.

I guess in some ways I do. But the thing is I have to be physically attracted to her. I have a wide spectrum of what is attractive to me, but it is still important. I just hate hearing that I am superficial because of that. Obviously women have to have a guy that is attractive to them, the difference is in what is attractive to each person. For some it is looks, for others it is security.

[Misshalfway]

I guess in some ways I do. But the thing is I have to be physically attracted to her. I have a wide spectrum of what is attractive to me, but it is still important. I just hate hearing that I am superficial because of that. Obviously women have to have a guy that is attractive to them, the difference is in what is attractive to each person. For some it is looks, for others it is security.

Absolutely! I guess I am just trying to say that while attractiveness is important ( not playing down that importance in anyway) it is not the only thing. And when a complete package is turned down because she doesn't look like a magazine, it is frustrating. I suppose it is the same frustration I am hearing from the men. Perhaps we are all a little superficial and have to get out of our own way from time to time.

And you know, what good is attraction in the long run? It alone can't keep the fire burning! It runs out for most of us anyway. We get wrinkles and love handles and hairy ears! The more important qualities should be on the list too and given balanced measure, Imo.

Edited June 18, 2008 by Misshalfway

[Moksha]

And you know, what good is attraction in the long run? It alone can't keep the fire burning! It runs out for most of us anyway. We get wrinkles and love handles and hairy ears! The more important qualities should be on the list too and given balanced measure, Imo.

Yes, let's hear it for the more important qualities and in balanced measure too! These thoughts may be wasted on the young, but they still deserve acknowledgment for those of more mature years. Let the young men search for looks and the young women search for looks and money. For us older ones, a discussion of those qualities that can bring us happiness and growth is in order.

[RachelleDrew]

I can see all sides of the fence. To be honest, I can only really reply from a woman's perspective.

I've never been hot by any means, yet i've always gotten more dates than any of my friends who by all means were gorgeous. I'm not saying that to be boastful, it's just the truth.

Why? Because I took advantage of the fact that a lot of girls seem to feel entitled to a certain type of man and get that "princess syndrome". Guys deal with these types of girls OVER and OVER again, and it's impossible to relate to women like this! So I made the distinct effort NOT to be like that type of girl. Perhaps I didn't hold a candle to the "princesses" in the looks department, but I certainly had no problem getting dates and exploring new relationships with men. I may have been girly, but I was no snob. Being nice and positive-minded does wonders when you are trying to date.

Girls who are seeking men of value need to become someone who is kind and supportive, without being meek and boring. Someone who takes an active interest in the things men like, yet still retaining femininity. Someone who encourages them to do better for themselves, without being nagging and cross when they sometimes fall short. It's really that simple. Men also don't like complication, they don't like mind-games (no matter how cute your girlfriends tell you it is to play games with their emotions, it's not.)

No sex likes rejection. To be honest, there is no reason why any man of worth should feel rejection from a woman. In my experience, anytime a well-groomed polite guy asked me to hang out with him I would always say yes even if I didn't think of him in a romantic manner. There is nothing wrong with going on one date in an attempt to test the waters and re-evaluate your perception of someone. I met one of my longest relationships this way, I had only ever considered him a friend until he asked me on a date. I accepted, and found that we were actually very compatible. I was with him for about two years.

I also have mixed feelings about money. To be honest, I strongly dislike wealth. I'm not sure why. There's something more romantic to me about that bohemian starving-artist thing. Maybe since my father was wealthy being poor is my unrealistic fantasy, i'm not sure...

As for what type of man I like? I've always liked soft-spoken, somewhat feminine men. While i've dated men from all walks of life, i've found that i'm just not physically attracted to men with muscle, i'm not sure why. It's just kind of gross to me (sorry if I hurt any feelings over that statement!)

My husband is skinny as a rail and positively addicted to America's Next Top Model. We play World of Warcraft together. He taught me how to play the trumpet. Most of my friends didn't even know that he was straight when I told them we had begun dating. He's so not like some of the stereotypical men most girls seem to like. Yet I wouldn't have him any other way.

To those of you worried that since you don't fit the "standard" that men and women desire....good! It's worked well for me to not be like other girls, and it's worked well for my husband to not be like other boys. It may take you 60 years, but being yourself will pay off.

[Gatsby]

When I made that reply when I said looks, it meant, to be a perfect 10. When I said money, I really meant incredibly wealthy.

Anyhow, people never fall in love downwardly, but upwardly or someone who they think is their equal.

Edited June 19, 2008 by Gatsby

[Jbs2763]

here is another perspective, maybe not i dont pay super close attention...ive always considered myself a nice guy....but.... I GET USED ALL THE DANG TIME.... now to the point when it seems a gal is interested in me...my first thought is...what's the bit? where is the end game, what does she want from me, there has to be something matieral she needs or otherwise she wouldt acknowlege me

girls talk about having trouble trusting guys...but us nice guys have trouble trusting the gals.... i honestly dont believe anymore that a girl would actually be interested in me for me...just to use me to get at some thing else.....its been the case with every girl i've dated over the last 10 years or so....100% .....now im ranting so ill stop

[Islander]

here is another perspective, maybe not i dont pay super close attention...ive always considered myself a nice guy....but.... I GET USED ALL THE DANG TIME.... now to the point when it seems a gal is interested in me...my first thought is...what's the bit? where is the end game, what does she want from me, there has to be something matieral she needs or otherwise she wouldt acknowlege me

girls talk about having trouble trusting guys...but us nice guys have trouble trusting the gals.... i honestly dont believe anymore that a girl would actually be interested in me for me...just to use me to get at some thing else.....its been the case with every girl i've dated over the last 10 years or so....100% .....now im ranting so ill stop

I hear your pain. It seem you have not figured out why you keep picking these kind of girls. I am not sure what the issues are but, I promise you, until you understand (I am not talking about memory/remembering what happened before) and develop some REAL insight into the dynamics that drive you after these kind of girls you will be looking for them in the crowd and miss the other 100 or so that have the potential to make you happy.

You have to put iin some REAL work here. This is a patter you have developed and you are prone to repeat it so you will need some help to break away from it. No question there are people out there and we should all stay away from them. In your case you seek them even without awareness. That is a challenge.

Hope it helps.

[UTKat50]

Hello!

I'm new here :-)....when I first came upon these forums I saw the Single Adult thread right off! LOL

Having been single all my life, and living here in Happy Valley UT for the last 27 years, I've seen quit a bit of the Single Life...all the good the bad and the ugly! I think I've heard every crazy, far-out, sob story there is to tell about why we LDS singles divorce or never marry. This week is the annual LDS Singles Conference for the 31 and over, held every June here in Orem. I've been to this Confernce almost every year since I moved to UT. I attend as many singles activites as I can. Fortunatly, they are in abundance year around here. Sometimes I don't know what is worse....having a smorgasborg of available singles, with tough competition...or having fewer to choose from so you stick out more, instead of being surrounded by other women who are prettier, taller, skinnier, smarter, etc, than me. :-)

I personally believe it's the men who are the more picker ones. They want that ' trophy ' on thier arm. Especially in my age group, the over 45's. Women my age are left behind for the younger women. The older I get, the worse it is. I only want to date men in my own age group, between 45 and 55, but that age group wants 30, even 20 year olds....lol...so what does a girl do?

I've pretty much resolved myself to the fact I will probably be alone the rest of my life....fortunatly, I live a full life with a great career, lots of good friends, active in activies and traveling and starting my own business soon. It does get loney at times, but ah well...if it's not meant to be, it's not meant to be. :-)

[PapilioMemnon]

Thanks KuriChan... I agree with most, most things!!!! It made me laugh as I remembered some people and situations... hahahaha

Tchau!

[Misshalfway]

Hello!

I'm new here :-)....when I first came upon these forums I saw the Single Adult thread right off! LOL

Having been single all my life, and living here in Happy Valley UT for the last 27 years, I've seen quit a bit of the Single Life...all the good the bad and the ugly! I think I've heard every crazy, far-out, sob story there is to tell about why we LDS singles divorce or never marry. This week is the annual LDS Singles Conference for the 31 and over, held every June here in Orem. I've been to this Confernce almost every year since I moved to UT. I attend as many singles activites as I can. Fortunatly, they are in abundance year around here. Sometimes I don't know what is worse....having a smorgasborg of available singles, with tough competition...or having fewer to choose from so you stick out more, instead of being surrounded by other women who are prettier, taller, skinnier, smarter, etc, than me. :-)

I personally believe it's the men who are the more picker ones. They want that ' trophy ' on thier arm. Especially in my age group, the over 45's. Women my age are left behind for the younger women. The older I get, the worse it is. I only want to date men in my own age group, between 45 and 55, but that age group wants 30, even 20 year olds....lol...so what does a girl do?

I've pretty much resolved myself to the fact I will probably be alone the rest of my life....fortunatly, I live a full life with a great career, lots of good friends, active in activies and traveling and starting my own business soon. It does get loney at times, but ah well...if it's not meant to be, it's not meant to be. :-)

Why is it so important for men to have the trophy? I get the need for attraction. But why does it seem to eclipse so many other things?

[ampat777]

I don´t want a trophy in my arms?!

[beefche]

I don´t want a trophy in my arms?!

Think of all those muscles you'd build and the great conversation starter it would provide!

[Misshalfway]

I don´t want a trophy in my arms?!

Well. I am glad. :)

But don't you think that some men really do? Kinda like a moth mezmerized by a porch light. Can't stop flying towards the....ZAP!

[Islander]

Come on girls; gentle with the poor old guys.

I am married (going on 12 years) and we are converts so we married a bit later than the average guy in the Church today. I have spoken in the singles ward as part of my Priesthood assignment several times and I will be lying if I say that I understand the dynamics of the YSA in the Church.

It is a shame, but boys are socialized to develop attraction for certain bio-types. They are bombarded (pre-adolescence, mind you) with these ridiculous notions of beauty and "coolness" that later become practically impossible to ignore or overcome!!!

Now, here is another issue and this one more delicate. I think that mothers, in particular and the family in general play a very important role in how boy/men see and interpret beauty. I was taught that ALL women were beautiful in their own way. That they were all different and a surprise to be discovered and that would take time. Grandma said to me "Son, do not worry about picking a pretty one. Pretty goes away rather quickly, does not do you much good anyhow and only God knows what you'd be left with after is gone. Pretty alone will not make you happy" That stuck with me.

It is sad and certainly unfair, but men are visually enticed. They will rarely approach a woman unles they feel "attracted" somehow. The demographics do not help either. There are likely 4-5 girls for every guy around. Unless a woman looks her very best and has the social skills to match I'm afraid the battle will not be easy. I guess reality can be cruel but we must do the best we can.

Just my thoughts

Edited June 20, 2008 by Islander

[MikeUpton]

In many of my psych classes, and in books I've read, I've seen many studies about dating, mating, and what attracts people. Here's a couple interesting items. Did you know that babies even gaze on the faces of those who are considered attractive by most people longer than they do the average looking? That there are mathematical formulas to follow when creating something visually appealing?

Animals challenge each other over the prettiest mate in a battle of dominance, with the female running off with the victor. This sort of behavior is also mimicked in the world of humans. Guys to some extent like good looking girls, and girls to some extent like dominant guys.

I don't think this sort of behavior is fundamentally wrong, it seems to be what we are naturally designed to do. I think it only becomes bad when our priorities get distorted, and we allow nature to take full charge and overrun our finer senses. Its similar to having other natural tendencies of being human but working at them to refine them, and make them better. If you don't have those tendencies, fine! I prefer it when things I say are taken with a grain of salt. :)

Edit: I've said all that but I must say in my ongoing quest to find an eternal mate, I've dated girls from different walks of life, and different levels of physical attractiveness. I've fallen quite hard for a couple girls who I suppose would be considered "average" by the standards of the world, but in my eyes they were breathtaking.

Edited June 21, 2008 by MikeUpton
additional point

[MarginOfError]

Of course guys are going for the 'trophy wife.' But a lot of that has to do with the structure of our dating system. First you meet, then you small talk, then you go on a few dates, and then it gets serious. When you go through those steps, your criteria for selecting a potential mate start of physical.

Very often, the guys that end up marrying someone who doesn't fit the accepted standard of beauty are the guys that developed friendships with these women before they developed romantic interests.

Then there's the fact that in our subculture we pressure our young men to get married before they've developed the emotional maturity to look beyond physical features.

[Misshalfway]

Think of all those muscles you'd build and the great conversation starter it would provide!

LOL! Brilliant!