Nice Guys

[VisionOfLehi]

Yeah. Those "hot" girls I see about seem to have an "aura" about that that says "high maintenance" or "bossy" or... worse, lol.

[checkerboy]

So what if she is hot and you are not?????? Not saying that you aren't. :) Just seems interesting to me that it is important to some men to have the hot babe, but don't seem to think it is important to try to be one.

And what if she is hot, and falls in love with you, but thinks you are a nice above average? What then?

All I can say is listen to the great Joe Jackson.

"Pretty women out walking with gorillas down my street."

So what if I am not hot. If she likes me for me then ok. And it is very important to me to look good for my woman. If I expect that from her then obviously she should expect it from me. On the other hand, guys like to know they look good too. My ex would never tell me I looked good. That bothered me. She would say looks aren't that important to me. OK I understand that but throw me a bone here. Just pretend and I will be happy.

Also let's be real here people. I know I can't speak for every guy (VOL) but I am not gonna go out with uggos. You may think that shallow of me but so what. I do agree that a persons outward beauty can be enhanced by their character. In fact my high school girlfriend was repulsive to me just a year before we started going out. But I got to know her. The problem is in an online dating world it is harder to do that. I am not saying that I only accept perfection because I am in no way perfect. But someone that weighs more then me is not what I am looking for. They can be great friends but more then likely that is where it will end.

If that is shallow then call me shallow. But I know what I want and like I said earlier, looks are one third of the package for me.

[Islander]

I tend to agree with checker (most of it) above. I said it before; for guys attraction is hardwired in the brain. It is a matter of personal choice and the like but the response to the female physique is basic. It is a sad reality but guys NEED to feel enticed physically in order to approach. Men do not build intimacy the same way women do. The "Beauty and the Beast" does not work in reverse, usually.

We can argue genetics and social developmental history but it will take us nowhere. So, we ALL need to look our very best to maximize our chances to find and keep our future and current companions. For the rest; it is what it is.

[VisionOfLehi]

Also let's be real here people. I know I can't speak for every guy (VOL) but I am not gonna go out with uggos. You may think that shallow of me but so what. I do agree that a persons outward beauty can be enhanced by their character.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that's true of most guys. But, the difference between guys is what they consider "uggo" (lol, love that) and what they don't.

[Gatsby]

I'm so very sorry, but I have to post this:

"To say that women love jerks is a whiny excuse Nice Guys use to explain why they're not getting laid."

"...boring Nice Guys who obey all the rules" and get walked on by (non-worthwhile) women."

Said by David N. Hafter in his book.

Growing Balls Blog Archive Reviews of Growing Balls

[KuriChan]

I kinda thought this thread would cause a stir! Isn't it great that we are all seeing each others' views? Whether or not we believe a single word someone might say, it does not change the fact that those comments are that individual's REALITY. And it is others' realities that we are discussing. People are interesting...

[Moksha]

Can we not share in that reality, grasshopper?

[Islander]

The subject is quite interesting. I had the opportunity to travel across quite a few countries over the years. Developed nations have more sophisticated cultural mores and values as well as quite intricate social norms and rituals that force the individual into behavioral patterns that are not found in other less developed societies and countries.

As these rituals become more and more complex, social exigencies in regards to dating and marriage expose more and more people that feel (or are, for practical purposes) unable to "fit" or fulfill these expectations. They are thus relegated to the social shoreline where they marginally and unsuccessfully date for years until they almost entirely give up and remain single. Because introspection does not come naturally, there is a strong tendency to blame others and point outward for this limited or lack of success in this necessary social behavior (dating/mating).

In simpler societies about 97% of the people marry and those that don't are clearly in the minority. Most times it is painfully obvious why they did not pass this expected social threshold. Not so in the US, for example, where they wonder what's wrong with other people and they do not questions what their own role may be in the situation.

Just a few thoughts.

[Guest Username-Removed]

Well, Im just reading the last few pages of this thread and I will say that I've known some really great friends, that have been hometeachers, and they also have excellent wives. Some of my closest friends, have great wives too.

However, for me, the search goes on. And, just because I havent found Mrs. Right yet, the fact that I have seen plenty of Mr. & Mrs Right in my day, gives me hope that I too may find her.

It is true that we men can have our hearts broken which can temporarily have a distorted, and somewhat pessimistic view of the opposite sex. Some have even written books as part of thier theropy! LOL. But I believe ultamately any damage done by poor relationships, can be fixed through healthy interaction with good people. At least that's my hope!

The search goes on!

[MikeUpton]

. Because introspection does not come naturally, there is a strong tendency to blame others and point outward for this limited or lack of success in this necessary social behavior (dating/mating).

While attending Ricks, one day I was in the dorms visiting a friend of mine. I was there hanging out and shooting the breeze with my friend and her roomates. The subject came up about dating, and one of the girls had a question for me. She asked "I want the truth. The complete truth. Why is it some girls get all of the dates and others sit at home?"

Well, she asked for my opinion, and said she wanted the truth of the matter, so I gave it to her as best as I could. She didn't like my answer. In fact I remember she was pretty upset about it. So what I am about to say I can only assume might upset some people here too, but I'm about to say what I said then, and add additional things I've learned in years since.

Before I start, it helps with the anger if these things are kept in mind. There are many attitudes about dating and attraction which are harmful that I do not suscribe to, nor am I trying to make any underlying points. Don't read too much into this. There is nothing hidden between the lines. Specifically,

I do not believe a person's worth=attractiveness

I do not believe a person's worth=how much you want to date them

I do not believe a person's worth=how socially acceptable they are

I do not believe a person's worth=etc etc etc because

I believe a person's worth=a person's worth=infinity, because of our divine parenthood.

That said, now I think that this must be said. This might be a long post, I've got a lot to say, and I was thinking about it a little yesterday as I was digging a creek out.

Here is the truth the girl asked for. Some girls will get more dates than most because of their beauty. Thats a given. Guys are admittedly, overall, naturally attracted to good looking girls. But here's the thing that upset her. This is not the end of the story.

There are things a girl (or a guy) can do to make themselves more attractive in ways that make up for looks. These people also get more dates. These are people who seem to put the parable of the talents to work in their lives by getting up, and going out to do things. Becoming actively involved in service in its many forms, and taking some form of responsibility for their social lives. Quite a number of the girls who never get asked out are the ones who get depressed about not getting asked out, so they become bitter, sit at home, watch tv and mope. Moping and bitterness does not make a person more attractive. Being involved, caring about others, serving, and taking some responsibility for improving your social life does make you more attractive, and these people do go on more dates. Not to mention, its difficult to meet people when you're not going out places where you can meet them.

If you take the body God has given you, and you do your best with it, if you take the life God has given you and do your best with it, well doing your best is all that can be asked of a person. A person who is doing their best is more attractive.

Don't take what I said as an absolute. There are always exceptions to this, its the general idea that is important.

Here's some stuff I've learned since then, additional points.:

I see too many people bashing beautiful people and getting away with it. There are so many things in our lives we try not to commit errors of stereotyping on, but when it comes to the subject of people who seem to be doing well for themselves, sometimes we forget this principle. Its important that we do not.

In my own experience, I have seen many beautiful people who had an inflated ego, but I have to say this: I have also seen many beautiful people who did not. Some of the most beautiful people I have known, have also been some of the most humble, spiritual, and caring people I have known. Yes, I am speaking of classic good looks and not just inner beauty. There are some who really do possess both.

Let me say also, that beautiful people are in essence, people. They have the same problems the rest of us do with understanding the true nature of our worth. Looking back at a post earlier given about people caught up in trying to reverse time, being a perfectionist, etc. etc. Doesn't that say to you there is a problem there? It comes when we rely too much upon other things than our divine parenthood in order to feel worth. This is essentially what might happen to many of us if we did the same, beautiful people are no different. I believe personally, its related to this scripture in Helaman (and similar scriptures in the New Testament.)

"12 And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall."

They are of course, held to the same standards we are. They also need to take responsibility for their lives, and work to be humble. I made the point above not to argue with things others have said so much as to add perspective. I don't like to see people getting caught up in bashing the beautiful or the rich. They are people, and God does not love them any less than he loves you. There is a pride we must watch for, and its the pride spoken of by Ezra Taft Benson in his well known talk on pride:

"Pride is a sin that can readily be seen in others but is rarely admitted in ourselves. Most of us consider pride to be a sin of those on the top, such as the rich and the learned, looking down at the rest of us. (See 2 Ne. 9:42.) There is, however, a far more common ailment among us—and that is pride from the bottom looking up. It is manifest in so many ways, such as faultfinding, gossiping, backbiting, murmuring, living beyond our means, envying, coveting, withholding gratitude and praise that might lift another, and being unforgiving and jealous."

I've got more points I'd like to make, but I feel this post is getting a bit long, I'll wrap it up. It might become a novel. :)

[Gatsby]

I'm so very sorry, but I have to post this:

"To say that women love jerks is a whiny excuse Nice Guys use to explain why they're not getting laid."

"...boring Nice Guys who obey all the rules" and get walked on by (non-worthwhile) women."

Said by David N. Hafter in his book.

Growing Balls Blog Archive Reviews of Growing Balls

Someone from this site posted a comment on Mr.Hafter's site quoting these exact words.

I didn't mean to offend anyone, didn't think that anyone was going to take it too personally--it's a forum.

[MikeUpton]

Someone from this site posted a comment on Mr.Hafter's site quoting these exact words.

I didn't mean to offend anyone, didn't think that anyone was going to take it too personally--it's a forum.

Seriously, I think people need to chill. You have to remember there are a lot of resources out there it is best to run a spiritual filter on. Its sad when authors have to write a book full of helpful things, and yet commit errors on things like this. Remember they're marketing to the rest of the world, not just us. They often have very helpful things to say. This is the world of self help psychology. Its best to listen to the words of the prophets first, but with all due respect to them, they've never mentioned in great practical detail how to "grow balls." At least that I know of. Correct me if I'm wrong. Sometimes its nice to seek additional answers.

Sometimes the best we can do is to read what we can, glean what truth we can from something, while running a heavy spiritual filter on things we read. Sometimes to help us, its nice to seek answers from secular places. Unfortunately, the answers you find in the university of secular knowledge aren't going to be very BYU standard-ish. Speaking of BYU, you'd be surprised what books you can find in the library there.

Going to random people's websites and posting scriptures they're clueless about because you were offended is not likely to make them want to change. It actually tends to have the opposite effect.

Edited July 6, 2008 by MikeUpton

[MikeUpton]

Someone from this site posted a comment on Mr.Hafter's site quoting these exact words.

I didn't mean to offend anyone, didn't think that anyone was going to take it too personally--it's a forum.

Edit: Looks like the "scripture out of context" was just your signature. Missed that.

Seriously, I think people need to chill. You have to remember there are a lot of resources out there it is best to run a spiritual filter on. Its sad when authors have to write a book full of helpful things, and yet commit errors on things like this. Remember they're marketing to the rest of the world, not just us. They often have very helpful things to say. This is the world of self help psychology. Its best to listen to the words of the prophets first, but with all due respect to them, they've never mentioned in great practical detail how to "grow balls." At least that I know of. Correct me if I'm wrong. Sometimes its nice to seek additional answers. If thats not your cup of tea, that's fine, but you ought not to criticize others for doing it.

Sometimes the best we can do is to read what we can, glean what truth we can from something, while running a heavy spiritual filter on things we read. Sometimes to help us, its nice to seek answers from secular places. Unfortunately, the answers you find in the university of secular knowledge aren't going to be very BYU standard-ish. Speaking of BYU, you'd be surprised what books you can find in the library there.

Going to random people's websites and posting scriptures they're clueless about because you were offended is not likely to make them want to change. It actually tends to have the opposite effect.

Edited July 6, 2008 by MikeUpton

[MikeUpton]

Someone from this site posted a comment on Mr.Hafter's site quoting these exact words.

I didn't mean to offend anyone, didn't think that anyone was going to take it too personally--it's a forum.

Looks like it was a copy paste job including your signature, to call attention to the fact his website was mentioned in the thread.

[Gatsby]

Looks like it was a copy paste job including your signature, to call attention to the fact his website was mentioned in the thread.

True.

[staytrue2faith]

nice guys are awesome

[Misshalfway]

So are nice girls!!!

[Misshalfway]

nice guys are awesome

So are nice girls!!!!

[checkerboy]

So are nice girls!!!!

What are these "nice girls" you speak of? I would love to meet them. They sound intriguing. Does anyone know where one could procure some?

[Misshalfway]

Sorry, I'm taken !!!

Hahahaa. Couldn't help myself.

[Jbs2763]

even when a "nice guy" is assertive we tend to get the raw deal... "oh you are such a good friend...." bah humbug

[Misshalfway]

We nice girls get it too. She's a.....sweet spirit.

[prospectmom]

we have nice girls grown in Oregon.........:}

[MikeUpton]

I vouch for the nice girls thing. I love them. Girls who are not nice are mentioned in Proverbs, in scriptures I heartily agree with:

21:9 It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman in a wide house.

Proverbs 21:9

21:19 It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman.

Proverbs 21:19

See? Another fine example of sage timeless advice from the scriptures!

To be fair, you could replace the word woman with "man" and its equally true.

If anyone knows any nice girls, let me know. I want one too!

Edited July 8, 2008 by MikeUpton

[prospectmom]

Mikeupton

oh no you mentioned contentious and angery......... I've been that lately no wonder why my family is not to happy with me...........

Haven a neg time in my life will work on being a nicer gal for me and my family

Like I said lots of Nice girls are grown in Oregon....