Same sex marriage. Impact begins

[Traveler]

For what it is worth the Book of Enoch in talking about the flood and its purpose said that man had done two things. They had changed the order of marriage (what-ever that means) and that children were conceived for carnal purposes.

I would also add the prophesy that in the last days those that do not flee to Zion will be taken captive in Babylon.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Actually, if by "natural" you mean "of nature" then it is not wrong. Many advanced species (apes, dolphins, dogs) practice homosexuality as well. If you had a male dog you would know better, they'll mount just about anything.

I do not know of any advanced species that is capable of reproduction by the practice of homosexuality.

If we have any understanding of evolution then we must understand that there can be no benefit to a species that in some way does not reward and value reproduction.

The Traveler

[Guest User-Removed]

For what it is worth the Book of Enoch in talking about the flood and its purpose said that man had done two things. They had changed the order of marriage (what-ever that means) and that children were conceived for carnal purposes.

I would also add the prophesy that in the last days those that do not flee to Zion will be taken captive in Babylon.

The Traveler

I will recall for this threads benefit...what was the first Official Act of the new Mayor of Salt Lake City, a few months back????

[Guest User-Removed]

Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and higher education positively fortifies it.

Stephen Vizinczey, An Innocent Millionaire

I have a Jesuit friend who just retired from the University of San Francisco...He was fond of using the phrase: Invincible Ignorance.

I fear we might have a touch of this...where this issue is concerned???

[Guest Xzain]

Actually, if by "natural" you mean "of nature" then it is not wrong. Many advanced species (apes, dolphins, dogs) practice homosexuality as well. If you had a male dog you would know better, they'll mount just about anything.

If a thing is 'natural' if it is found in nature, then cannibalism, eating one's own young, child abandonment, theft, and killing for territory are all 'natural'. The 'natural' argument is one of the most internally inconsistent arguments out there.

And how dare homosexuals make a mockery of Britney Spear's 48 hour marriage!?! How dare they!

Rational people on 'our side' of the SSM argument would say that Britney Spear's short-lived marriage was an abomination in itself, and a degredation to the idea of what marriage should be. One abomination making another look worse is not sufficient justification for the former's establishment or perpetuation.

I will recall for this threads benefit...what was the first Official Act of the new Mayor of Salt Lake City, a few months back????

Okay, I really don't know- care to enlighten me?

[Snow]

The university receives state funding and tax-exempt bonds; therefore is subject to anti-discrimination laws, and rightly so.

Catholic Charities received the vast majority (often over 80%) of its monies from state and federal funds.

Therefore, it was subject to applicable anti-discrimination laws, and rightly so.

This was not a free speech case. The practice fired her because she violated its anti-discrimination policy.

The doctors (there was more than one) had been treating the patient for a number of years, and knew she wanted IVF. They even gave her the hormones that go with the procedure. So the doctors had known for a significant amount of time that she wanted children, and would need the required procedure. Yet they did not tell her until it was time to perform the procedure.

Their discrimination put her in an impossible situation, as her insurance would only pay for procedures from these doctors. However, they did recommend a different practice, and did have the procedure, though she had to pay all the expenses herself.

As for the “get another job” comment, what the judge meant is that if the doctor knows she is going to refuse treatments based on religious convictions, then she should not specialize in that practice. Denying treatment to lesbians is a foreseeable consequence of being a gynecologist; therefore, common sense would say she should not choose a specialty that is going to discriminate against a woman because of who she is, i.e., because she is a lesbian.

I agree it should be the doctor's right to specialize in any field she wants. However, if she violates company policy, she risks being fired.

Additionally, she is subject to the same anti-discrimination laws that prohibit her from discriminating against anyone based on race. Therefore, she should consider another specialty to avoid having to refuse her services to someone based on her religious convictions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In general, the following is applicable:

If a company receives federal funds, it is subject to applicable anti-discrimination laws, as it should be.

If a company has a tax-exempt status, it is also subject to anti-discrimination laws, as it should be.

Nonsense.

Elphaba

You'll ruin everything is you start throwing facts and the truth around.

Edited June 19, 2008 by Snow

[PapilioMemnon]

It is not our place to be judgemental. We are put on this earth to Love and to share God's Love with others. If we sit in judgement we send a message to others that God is selective in his Love and that is not the case. God IS Love. I think people would be better to focus on the good people do, and encourage them, than to focus and banter over something is only going to encourage negativity.

I do agree 100% that God is love! However, does this mean that because He is love that He will give us commmandments and don't care if they are not obeyed? Then, why give us all these teachings about "Following the Lord, keeping His commandments, obeying Him, etc.?''

God is love, mercy, forgiveness, long-suffering, not puffed up, just, law-giver, the Creator,....

The commandments that sums up all the law:

Matthew 2236 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt alove the Lord thy God with all thy bheart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy cmind.

38 This is the first and great acommandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt alove thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the alaw and the prophets.

We are to love God this way, and if we love Him, we follow Him, His teaching, His commandments, the way He set things, not out of our own pleasure and desires.

Jesus taugh us in John 14 (Emphasis added)

15 ¶ If ye alove me, bkeep my ccommandments.

21 He that hath my commandments, and akeepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be bloved of my Father, and I will love him, and will cmanifest myself to him.

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will alove him, and we will come unto him, and make our babode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me acommandment, even so I do...

Nephi taught us:

[B]1 Ne. 17: 35 35 Behold, the Lord esteemeth all aflesh in one; he that is brighteous is cfavored of God.

I feel that some people become really confused with the notion of God is love that somehow it justifies lack of obedience to His commandments and teachings. He does love all of us, but that does not justify disobedience to Him.

Alma 45: 16

16 And he said: Thus saith the Lord God—aCursed shall be the land, yea, this land, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, unto destruction, which do bwickedly, when they are fully ripe; and as I have said so shall it be; for this is the cursing and the cblessing of God upon the land, for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the dleast degree of allowance. D&C 1: 31

31 For I the Lord cannot look upon asin with the least degree of allowance;

And sin is anything that is against His teaching and will and commandments; anything that opposes Him. That's precisely where Satan stands: in opposition to all that is good which comes from God.

And about judging, we are to make judgements and were taught to do so, but not about people's standing with the Lord & final judgements (That's the Lord's place)

Ps. 7: 8

8 The Lord shall ajudge the people: judge me, O Lord, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.

We need to make judgments about behaviors, teachings, laws, choices, friendships, etc. regarding right and wrong. If not so, how could we follow His teaching to stay away from wickdeness, choose the right, the good, choose God over Satan?

Lev. 19: 15

15 ¶ Ye shall do no aunrighteousness in bjudgment: ... but in drighteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

John 7: 24

24 aJudge not according to bthe cappearance, but judge righteous judgment.

D&C 11: 12

12 And now, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your atrust in that bSpirit which cleadeth to do dgood—yea, to do ejustly, to walk fhumbly, to gjudge righteously; and this is my Spirit.

How do we judge righteously?

[B]Matthew 714 Because astrait is the bgate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto clife, and few there be that find it.

15 ¶ Beware of afalse prophets, which come to you in bsheep’s clothing, but cinwardly they are ravening dwolves.

16 Ye shall aknow them by their bfruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth agood bfruit; but a ccorrupt tree bringeth forth devil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good afruit is bhewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their afruits ye shall know them.

Moroni taugh us perfectly:

Moroni 7

5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their aworks ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.

11 For behold, a bitter afountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he bfollow Christ he cannot be a cservant of the devil.

12 Wherefore, all things which are agood cometh of God; and that which is bevil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to csin, and to do that which is evil continually.

13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do agood continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and benticeth to do cgood, and to love God, and to serve him, is dinspired of God.

14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is aevil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to ajudge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

16 For behold, the aSpirit of Christ is given to every bman, that he may cknow good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do aevil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the alight by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same bjudgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.

When I judge things, behaviors, choices, places, peoples' choices & behaviors, I use HIS STANDARDS AND LAWS, not mine; this way I can make righetous choices for myself and those around me, and I can support and show my love for my God following His ways, seeking to establish HIS laws, not mine!

James 1: 5

5 aIf any of you lack bwisdom, let him ask of God, that cgiveth to all men liberally, and dupbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Ps. 119: 27, 34, 73

27 Make me to aunderstand the way of thy precepts: so shall I talk of thy wondrous works.

• • •

34 Give me aunderstanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.

• • •

73 Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments.

Prov. 2: 2-3, 6, 9, 11

2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine aheart to understanding;

3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;

• • •

6 For the Lord giveth awisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and bunderstanding.

• • •

9 Then shalt thou aunderstand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path.

May we all grow in understanding as we incline our ears to hear, and our hearts to desire what God desires!

Peace & love!

[Guest User-Removed]

It is not our place to be judgemental. We are put on this earth to Love and to share God's Love with others. If we sit in judgement we send a message to others that God is selective in his Love and that is not the case. God IS Love. I think people would be better to focus on the good people do, and encourage them, than to focus and banter over something is only going to encourage negativity.

I've found those who are the most judgemental around here...Are those who always seek to elevate their views over those of our Prophets, Seers and Revelators.

I'm constantly amazed that those who have the most strident opinions against this Church and it's teachings are usually those who have turned their back on the Gospel...Yet the continue to either seek solice in a faith they deny...OR...could they possibly be trawling for converts????

NOW...Under full disclosure...lest any knickers suddenly find themselvs all bunched up...This post is not directed to any one individual...Kinda like Jack Webb used to say...The names have been.........

[VisionOfLehi]

Elphaba. Thanks for your post, which provided a much-needed counter to the original post and the link provided. It was obvious (to me) that they didn't have all the facts.

But I will still disagree with you, always, that they "are" NOT homosexuals. It's not who they are, it's what they do.

[Canuck Mormon]

But I will still disagree with you, always, that they "are" NOT homosexuals. It's not who they are, it's what they do.

But are we not defined by what we do?

[Hemidakota]

Any serious disciple yearns to go home to Heavenly Father and to be welcomed there by Jesus. The Prophet Joseph Smith declared we cannot go where the Godhead are unless we become more like Them in the principles and attributes and character They possess (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 216).

[Guest User-Removed]

Any serious disciple yearns to go home to Heavenly Father and to be welcomed there by Jesus. The Prophet Joseph Smith declared we cannot go where the Godhead are unless we become more like Them in the principles and attributes and character They possess (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 216).

BULLSEYE...on that Hemi!!!!!

[prisonchaplain]

But I will still disagree with you, always, that they "are" NOT homosexuals. It's not who they are, it's what they do.

While I wouldn't want to be labeled by my weaknesses, it would also be foolhardy not to recognize that some people are far more prone to certain temptations. Some are drawn to alcohol, others prohibited sexual behavior, and still others, like myself, to donuts.

I'd hate to think of my self-identification as donut-aholic, but I realize I struggle with this addiction.

[VisionOfLehi]

You are defined by what you do, but what you do is a choice.

From previous discussions I know that Elph believes they're born that way, and this is what I was disagreeing with.

[Guest User-Removed]

I'd hate to think of my self-identification as donut-aholic, but I realize I struggle with this addiction.

I'd be happy to introduce you to my DARE Program...It has assisted many Law Enforcement personal with their donut addictions...

[Redbeard]

Hey Redbeard let me ask you a question. Why should laws be based on non-theistic morals?

Actually, what I said was "general consenses for morality of theists and non-thesists alike"

The reason behind that is, we are in america, and in america we have the right to believe, or not to believe in a higher being. Because of that, non-theists should not be held to what theists believe wrong unless there is empirical evidance that such activity is damaging. Look at countries run by Radical islamists, do you really think that religions rules should be forced on people of different beliefs?

[Hemidakota]

Seeing the real estate we now occupy today called the Americas belongs to Him and not us, there is no choice but heed what He spoke to the last defunct tenets, to follow Him and His laws. Otherwise, we may become as the last.... lol

[Redbeard]

Checks...excellent point...Every murder statute in just about any part of the world is based on a theistic moral??????

Most theft statutes have a moral basis...

This old hackney cliche about moral neutral laws...is just alot of situational ethics codswallop...

Come on people, do I have to do all the work for you?

"One of the oldest known prohibitions against murder appears in the Sumerian Code of Ur-Nammu written sometime between 2100 and 2050 BC. The code states, "If a man commits a murder, that man must be killed.""

That's a good 2000 years before the bible was written... and it was written by man without the influence of gods. So did christians get the idea from non theistic based law?

"Murder is the unlawful killing of a human person with malice aforethought, as defined in Common Law countries. Murder is generally distinguished from other forms of homicide by the elements of malice aforethought and the lack of lawful justification. All jurisdictions, ancient and modern, consider it a most serious crime and most impose severe penalty on its commission."

[Hemidakota]

Ugh, who was Sumerians forefather? Bible is nothing more than a collection of written scrolls, books, or what every transpired that was written since Adam time frame. Yes, I will state Adam since the Brother of Jared had the records and so did Abraham.

Nothing to do with this group but a instruction given by someone before them...

[Redbeard]

Wow, so many responses to deal with!

It usually amuses me when people do this.

I feel that comparing animal behavior to human behavior is not an accurate resource to base beliefs, and much less behavior itself. With all the love and respect I feel for animals, they are what they are: Animals. Irrational living creatures that act on instinct without the capacity to think, reason, and choose a behavior; they act to fulfill physical needs/appetites and defend themselves.

If you reread what I wrote, I was stating that homosexuality is not exlusive to Humans... that's it... And animals do think reason, and make decisions... you really should check out your old high school biology book. If you really can't do the research for yourself, let me know and I will post a bunch of artichles linking animal research for you.

In some cases, comparing animals to people is an offense to them, the animals.

People were created and allowed to “have dominion,” over all other things (Gen. 1:26); people were given the ability to think, reason, and make choices (Agency) as well as be held accountable for them (Responsibility, consequences), making them a superior specie since they rule over all others.

And Animals have the same ability...

Animals do not sit and plan, are not crafty; they just act based on need/instinct/defense. They do not plan murder, or justify behaviors, and choices by comparing themselves to humans either; they do not compete or compare. They don’t have jobs (People make money out of them), they do not go to school, they don’t make money, laws, don’t pay for rent, food, etc.

Um... and your evidance for any of this is... I mean, the last part is fairly obvious (rent, jobs, etc etc,) but what is your proof that they do not plan murder? Are you an animal psychic? Do you know for 100% fact that an ape has never planned to kill another ape? I know it sounds silly, but apes do kill each other, for multiple reasons, and apes are intelligent enough to use tools and to solve advanced problems.

If they can’t fulfill all other things that humans are able to, then let’s leave them in their place, and not isolate only the types of behaviors and species that do something out of animality (Merely satisfaction of physical appetites) to compare to what humans choose to do to justify human choices & behavior.

My dog is here; when I feed, and walk her, her needs are satisfied!

My older son says, "The reason male dogs do this is not to create a same-gender relationships, they just react to hormones, and will go on anything. To reproduce, they look for a female by the scent. When the physical need is satisfied, they are done with it."

p.s.: I've had many animals (Cats, dogs, rabbits, hamsters, chicks, white mice,...), and males dogs as well; I know animals well!

* Some female hamsters eat their young... Does this behavior compare & support parents who murder their children?

Um, lots of animals kill other animals of the same species... Other than that, I don't know what else you are trying to say...

I and, as far as I’m concerned, all people were created in the image of GOD, in His likeness; we were created to fulfill a purpose, and “He created man in His own image,… male and female.” They were told to “Be fruitful, multiply, and replenish the earth.” (Gen. 1:27-28). Male & female are a perfect fit for each other! The only way to reproduce is uniting a male cell with a female cell; this is the innate purpose, the natural method; this fulfills the purpose of the male and female gender. If same-gender attraction is natural, it should be able to reproduce with same-gender cell as well; the fit should give the same results: children; well, it doesn’t! It is contrary to the purpose; the fit is wrong.

And that is your opinion, I have a differing opinion, no big deal

I know someone who has been baptized at the church recently, and she told me she had these inclinations and had same-gender relationships many years ago. Then, she decided to read the Bible because despite that she believed in the Lord. Then she said, “When I realized this was contrary to the Lord’s will and purpose, I stopped, ended my relationship of years, and remained on my own to this day.I realized it was wrong to act on it!”

And I’ll leave it to that!

Um... good for her? What about the millions of homosexual couples who are christian and never feel the need to stop what they are doing?

If you chose to compare yourself, your behavior, and people who are inclined to same-gender attraction (Those who chooses to act on) to the behaviors of inferior species, be my guest; maybe in this case you’re completely right, and the comparison is completley appropriate!

Wow... humans are animals too you know, yes we're the smartest ones that we know of, but there are also animals that carry out manogomous relationships... are you saying that you are comparing yourself to those animals!?!?! How embarrasing!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fundamental is defined by "essential part of... People need food, water, clothing, and shelter: those are fundmental rights! Sexual satisfaction is not fundamental to human survival, and no one will die or be harmed either if they don't get married.. Marriage came from "theistic morals" and principles.

As you expressed in your opinion, they should follow "basic morals," and not theistic ones. They should not alter the law to simulate the theistic notion of marriage going contrary to its definition and purpose (Union between a man & a woman) if they don't like or fit the definition!

I do not go to an Asian restaurant, and speak to the manager to change the menu to serve me Italian!

So religion isn't fundamental either...

Marriage may have been a theistic law, but once the government came in and started to use the term it became a non-theist term. Sorry, one of the advantages of having church and state seperate. And that definition of marriage is your own, let me read the most up to date deffinition of marriage:

the state of being a married couple voluntarily joined for life (or until divorce); "a long and happy marriage"; "God bless this union"

two people who are married to each other; "his second marriage was happier than the first"; "a married couple without love"

the act of marrying; the nuptial ceremony; "their marriage was conducted in the chapel"

a close and intimate union; "the marriage of music and dance"; "a marriage of ideas"

that was the first definition brought up in when you type in "Define:marriage" in google.

The first one that talks about marriage being a man and a woman?

www.medievalwriting.50megs.com/churchglossary/glossaryi.htm

Hmm...

and by the way

I do not advocate or support hate/violence torwards anyone, but support theistics & fundamental notions of what is right and wrong.

Yes, my fundamental beliefs, that I choose to follow, support, and obey, come from and are based on the Creator's teachings, words, commandments, not the creation!

Well that is good

[Redbeard]

Ugh, who was Sumerians forefather? Bible is nothing more than a collection of written scrolls, books, or what every transpired that was written since Adam time frame. Yes, I will state Adam since the Brother of Jared had the records and so did Abraham.

Nothing to do with this group but a instruction given by someone before them...

Finish the rest of the page Hemi...

And unless you have evidence that what you are saying is true you are just giving opinion. The scroll itself says nothing about being passed on.

Edit: No record of his life, but we do have a list of the kings before him...

Sumerian king list - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Strange, no talk of adam in there...

Edited June 19, 2008 by Redbeard

[Redbeard]

I do not know of any advanced species that is capable of reproduction by the practice of homosexuality.

If we have any understanding of evolution then we must understand that there can be no benefit to a species that in some way does not reward and value reproduction.

The Traveler

Ahh, so the only reason we have sex is to procreate...

You think animals enjoy it any less than humans?

[Redbeard]

I have a Jesuit friend who just retired from the University of San Francisco...He was fond of using the phrase: Invincible Ignorance.

I fear we might have a touch of this...where this issue is concerned???

Well that is Deffinatly the most creative way anyone has called me ignorant, good job

Anyway, so because my opinion differs from the majority here, I am the one who is ignorant? Pretty silly really to assume that.

[rena_goldmoon]

Ahh, so the only reason we have sex is to procreate...

You think animals enjoy it any less than humans?

I know Im new to this Thread and to this site in general but I'd just like say that I believe that God uses evolution to progress his work. Look at your biology books the usefull strong genes are passed on. Therefore if you arent able to pass on your genes your genes die out. Making homosexualality not "natural" because its stopping progression.

Ok to what I just quoted. We eat because we'd die otherwise. Yes we also eat because it tastes good. But the main function of eating is to nurish your body. If God didnt make sex feel good not too many people would have children animals included. So yes and no. And yes sex is essentual the feeling is not. If we didnt have sex no one would exist. Sure we are able to make offspring now (in vitro and such) without it, but back in the day that was the only way. Im not trying to contradict anyone just thought I'd add my thoughts.

[Hemidakota]

Finish the rest of the page Hemi...

And unless you have evidence that what you are saying is true you are just giving opinion. The scroll itself says nothing about being passed on.

Edit: No record of his life, but we do have a list of the kings before him...

Sumerian king list - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Strange, no talk of adam in there...

Now, seeing your own quote by using the gospel according to Wiki god, I would not even bother to waste energy with my mind in reading it.

Unless we understand our own history that is already given by the fathers that was passed down and not someone else’s biased historical accounting or a five-second of earthy scholarly fame professor, if Adam was the first man, it is most likely GOD did instruct him due to Cain murderous adventure.

Who were their forefather prior to them? It still goes back to Noah....remember the flood. History is not always truthful history presented in our textbook....something I came to accept over time.