NormalMormon questions about the priesthood.

[rena_goldmoon]

I wondered about these different thing for awhile once too. I came to the conclusion as too the mission age difference. Our primary responsibility (and some may be upset by this) is to marry, bare children and raise them in the gospel. So we are givin the oppertunity to fullfill that responsibility first. On the maturity thing guys need more time to mature therefore if we were to equal out the maturity leval a 19 yr old girl plus a 21 to 22 yr old guy is about equal right. The mission is to help mature them. They age gap is to give us oppertunity and so we can make sure its not just us running from the thought of marrying. Anyhow thats how I look at it. When my mom went they asked her to first prey about any marriage proposels she had recieved. Also its much harder for a women with children to attend college as it is for men. Therefore you have time for education before marriage. I dont know that helped me and makes very much since to me.

[rena_goldmoon]

As to the preisthood thing. They have the responsibility to protect and heal phisicaly. We have the responsibility to nurture and teach. I would not want all of the responsibility. It would overwhelm me. Also have you had a child of your own? Im not meaning to offend Im just trying to understand in order to explain my veiw to you.

[rena_goldmoon]

I attended the temple for the first time a week before I was married and was very greatful that he had been before me. It was more a revealation to me then a overwhemling exspirence. I was prepared though. He talked to me about it before hand, not specifics. just what he felt his first time and that if it felt overwheming to me that as I went more often I would understand more. Interestingly enough all of it made sense to me and was just a reaffirmation to my testimony. I did not in anyway feel unprepared. The Lord prepares you specifically in His own ways. We do not learn all the same and thats where the Spirit comes in. It helps fill the gap in our own personal reasoning and understanding.

[rena_goldmoon]

Actually I felt that thats what I had been preparing for all of my life.

[rena_goldmoon]

Thank you for the opportunity to revisit my feelings from my first exspirience in the Temple.

[NormalMormon]

I wasn't suggesting that a 19 year old girl is less mature than a 19 year old boy but in my experience she is a lot less physically tough. A couple more years of life experience makes up for that. As a 19 year old I wouldn't have wanted to go on a mission. I wouldn't have felt old enough.

Privilege? Are you seeing the priesthood as a privilege? I would have called it a responsibility and a heavy one at that. It isn't one I'm going to clamour after and cry "no fair, I want one!"

God in his wisdom created us in his image. That means women give birth and men don't. There is no 'unfair' about it. It's just different responsibilities because men and women are different. I don't think it's unfair that I can't have the priesthood and I don't think it's unfair that my husband can't have babies.

Do you think it's unfair that you can't see through your nostrils or ear through your eyelids? We have noses for nasal purposes and eyes for visual purposes and ears for auditory purposes. Men for man stuff and women for woman stuff. I'm far too busy being a woman to want to be a man as well.

Comparing child birth and the priesthood is like comparing apples and oranges. IT doesn't make sense because they have nothing to do with eachother. If it's such a "burden" or "responsibility" then why can't women have it still? I am just as tough, if not more so than half the skinny little missionaries out there!

[NormalMormon]

Why should he need to prepare her? Who prepared him? Temple preparation classes? She too can attend temple preparation classes. Our Young Women have been having a lot of lessons about the temple lately so they are not exactly ignorant, and they attend on a monthly basis to do baptisms so it's not a weird and foreign place to them.

Only dating for a few weeks? Do people you know really rush into marriage so quickly? They don't here.

There is a very good reason why the husband is the one to take his new wife through the temple, but it isn't one I believe we should discuss here.

Once again....

Everyone thinks that talking about the temple is a faux pas. However, I've asked my bishop, I've asked my temple prep teacher, and the ONLY things you aren't allowed to talk about are the signs/tokens and symbol meaning. So please, continue with why the HUSBAND should be taking his WIFE through the temple. And not the other way around. Why can't a woman go on a mission, then take a MAN through the temple?

[NormalMormon]

rena goldmoon -

Yes, that's WHY the entire idea is just wrong, wrong, wrong! Women SHOULD not be conditioned to think that making babies and being stay at home moms is the best option for them. I can see that, while I really mean no offense, you have been conditioned to believe that education isn't as important as child rearing. However, how are we to teach our children anything of value if all we are able to teach them is the little we know? We should be educating ourselves, going on missions, waiting to get married, and DATING our potential husbands for at least a year before we jump right into marriage. The idea that a woman's sole purpose in life is to rear children is rediculous. It's a great purpose, but simply not enough.

[Jenamarie]

rena goldmoon -

Yes, that's WHY the entire idea is just wrong, wrong, wrong! Women SHOULD not be conditioned to think that making babies and being stay at home moms is the best option for them. I can see that, while I really mean no offense, you have been conditioned to believe that education isn't as important as child rearing. However, how are we to teach our children anything of value if all we are able to teach them is the little we know? We should be educating ourselves, going on missions, waiting to get married, and DATING our potential husbands for at least a year before we jump right into marriage. The idea that a woman's sole purpose in life is to rear children is rediculous. It's a great purpose, but simply not enough.

Okay. A lot of things to address in this. The church has always valued the education of women. Some MEMBERS may not put much emphasis on it, but I grew up hearing "WHEN you go to college" from my parents and leaders, not "if you choose to go to college". My mom worked full-time throughout my childhood, earned her Masters degree when I was 9. Education has always been a huge part of my family, and I feel in the church as well. Some of Brigham Young's wives were very highly educated for women in that day and age. And who's to say that the opportunity to further your education ends after childbirth? Lots of women in my ward are taking college courses while raising their kids. Two of them are in law school! Obviously the conditioning didn't work on them.

And I think sometimes we confuse "gaining an education" with "increasing your earning potential". Education can be gained outside of college, and some very mind-broadening lessons won't likely improve your resume, but are invaluable nontheless.

As far as the marrage thing, I married my husband after knowing him for only six months. Is that ideal? Probably not for everybody, but it worked well for us. The "proper" length of an engagement is best left up to the couple.

And even though I know you didn't mean to, I do take slight offence at your inference that motherhood and childrearing is "not enough". Being a mother is one of the most fulfilling things I've ever done in my life. And you know what? My kids have encouraged me *even more* to further my education! I think of all the things I want them to know before they go off on their own to face the world, and I read books and educate myself so that I can educate *them*.

And for your Temple question, I believe it has to do with the man being the "head" of the family. It's all over in the scriptures, and in the Proclamaition, that the father is the head of the family and is mainly (not solely - mainly) responsible for it's well being. I see that carrying over into the Eternities as well. I do not believe that it makes my roll less valuable. I value my womanhood, and the blessings it entails, and thank my Heavenly Father for them. I don't cry fowl that I don't get to hold the Priesthood in this life, as I believe I'll have the blessing of holding it in the next life. Man and Women cannot recieve Exaltation without eachother, and, I believe, cannot do the things Exaltation entails without both working in tandem, using those blessings in joint effort, completely unified.

[pam]

Thanks Maid...I myself am glad I don't have the Priesthood. I have enough to do without all that responsibility as well. The men do such a fine job. hehe

[Truegrits]

We (women) ARE encouraged to get an education. We are counseled to do so. We need to be able to support ourselves should the need occur.

I have never felt pressured to do things a certain way. I have an education. I had a very rewarding career. I have children. I take myself to the Temple; (my hubby is non LDS.)

The women in my Ward are educated...have jobs. Some have their own businesses.

I do not feel that I have missed out on anything. In fact, I feel that I have been blessed many times over.

I haven't really answered any of your questions; just wanted to share with you some of my thoughts/experiences...

[steffy101]

Ok so I will add my two cents LOL I hope I do not offend anyone it is not my purpose...

Women do not hold the priesthood because God doesn't want it that way,and that's good enough for me.I do not belive that women should feel that their duty is no more than rearing their children.Education is very important and as a mother of 2 daughters my hope for them is to go to college and further their education,then meet a wonderful man who they can go to the temple with.

I recently went to the temple and was sealed to my family.I have been married for 18 years and like I said before have 2 wonderful daughters.No temple prep classes can prepare you for the sacred things that transpire in the temple.

As far as husbands taking their wives or wives taking their husbands through the temple....does it really matter who takes whom?Neither of us had been before so it didn't matter.But if my hubby had been before me,no big deal.

The only thing that mattered to me was that I was being sealed to the people I love.Your spirit has to be in the right place to be able to accept these principals.In my opinion there is no room in the gospel for schauvenistic veiws for male or females.Again I don't mean to offend.And I'm not stupid I know that there are men who belive because they do have the priesthood they are above the women in the church.To them all I have to say is that they have to answer for the pride of their hearts.And as a women I am a CO-CREATOR with my Father in Heaven.What a great blessing this is.

[rena_goldmoon]

rena goldmoon -

Yes, that's WHY the entire idea is just wrong, wrong, wrong! Women SHOULD not be conditioned to think that making babies and being stay at home moms is the best option for them. I can see that, while I really mean no offense, you have been conditioned to believe that education isn't as important as child rearing. However, how are we to teach our children anything of value if all we are able to teach them is the little we know? We should be educating ourselves, going on missions, waiting to get married, and DATING our potential husbands for at least a year before we jump right into marriage. The idea that a woman's sole purpose in life is to rear children is rediculous. It's a great purpose, but simply not enough.

Actually no. I mentioned education in previous post. I myself almost have 2 associate degrees and plan to continue my education. I simply stated that maybe it was easier to persue some of that before you had children in refrence to the mission age thing. i do agree that its my GREATEST calling but not that thats my only calling. Also I dated my husband for a year before we were married and was engaged for a year. I also beleive women are intelligent (men too) and can think for themselves. Use prayer. Only God knows everything. I was just trying to give you my exspirience. I takee no offense in what you have to say. I ALWAYS form my own answer after searching diligently. Im am definatly not brainwashed or conditioned. And were looking for help or had you already formed your own oppinion?

[rena_goldmoon]

Okay. Point here. God made men and women distincly different. Therefore like with our phisicality our roles in life are different. Not greater just different. They work hand in hand. If we were supposed to be the same we would have the same parts as men. And frankly Im ok with mine.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

I tried to find the source but I couldn't. I believe either Marion G Romney or LeGrande Richards mentions this, but not sure. Anyways

I read somewhere, that for men they are called to use and exercise the Priesthood. They are called to do every day of their lives. That is how they become clean. Jacob talks about this in the BoM. Daily magnification of their calling.

Think of Priesthood as I teach to people outside the home. Think of rearing a family as teaching to people inside the home. Either way it is preaching the gospel. Covering everything.

I have also noticed that, in general, the mother can connect and talk about more sensitive things in the way a father cannot. That is personal and individual and inside the home material. When the father is outside, he guards and protects them from shame and pain of the world.

So really the only difference as I see it, is my mother does not administer to me blessings and ordinances, and my father does. However, she brought me into the world. Which allows me the opportunity to even have those blessings.

There is truly unification in the husband and wife, but only if they each do their parts.

As I see it, one has to be outside the home, and the other has to be inside the home. Can't have two outside or two inside. One is an external defender, and one is an internal defender. The devil is crafty and will sneak in somehow and the angry mother(which I think is feared more) gets to destroy the evil tarnish on her living room rug with vengeance.

Priesthood functions as service to others. It can never be used to bless oneself. So the mother couldn't use the Priesthood anyways because her role is to rear the family. Inherent of child-birth.

Mother and father support each other in their respective roles. But they do not replace those roles.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

I should also point out, that in proper circumstances, the women should be in the home and the men should be earning the wages.

Why? Because, inherent of being the mother or the one who brought the child into the world, they have an individual bond that the father and child do not have. The home is stronger with a mother who does her duty.

I am not saying the husband should not help out. But the mother is the primary teacher. You could call it "going on a mission." Prepared missionaries have a testimony based on truth given by the Holy Ghost. Same requirements as I see it.(To have a successful family)

I have expressed my view that there has to be a parent at home and at work. It cannot be flipped, as I see it, from the father is outside and the mother is inside. Why? Because there is that special bond between mother and child.

And for my final point.

God ordained it to be such, with modern counsel given through the proclamation to the world.

Also, the Priesthood is not to be sought after for its blessings. It is sought for the enhanced service and love that can be rendered. Given first to God, then to fellow men. And inasmuch as the father and mother are one, they are one in the Priesthood and in the sight of God.

[MaidservantX]

The home is my world and my kingdom. I create it the way I want it, and the Spirit of the Lord abounds and the devil isn't allowed in. That is what I do as a woman. Creating the souls of sons and daughters (body and spirit) is what I do as a woman. Obviously both mothers and fathers, as one, create their homes and create their children. But women are placed forward in this miracle and are closer to the miracle before their husbands are allowed there. As I see it. If I am creating human beings as a mother, that makes me like God, perhaps far more easily than is possible for my husband.

In my life (in the past), my husband was in the home and I worked to provide for our material necessities. My husband learned to love this opportunity (that most men don't have the privilege of) after I pointed out to him that he was doing exactly what Heavenly Father does which is to take care of His children 24/7. Does Heavenly Father have employment? I think not. He is the epitome of the nurturer. And women have reserved to themselves this purity of experience and said that: even in the telestial world, we will not do less than this. If there is a lesser law to do (the Church as it is now; employment in the secular world) then we will have our defenders, our archangels, our brothers, our lovers, our men serve us in this way, so that we can rule as a mother and effect the conditions of the celestial kingdom in our posterity and in our homes and land. We will not accept being distracted or divided from this godliness.

That's how I see it.

[NormalMormon]

It seems as though both women and men are quick to sing the praises of women, and put them "higher" up on a pedestal than men, which is not what I was hoping to find.

Men say "You women do what we cannot."

Women say "Men don't have the BOND with their child."

And so on....

This feels simply patronizing. Like you must build women up in order to compensate for the fact that we do not have the same opportunities as men. You are right in that we are equal, but different. We are equal but different BIOLOGICALLY. The only thing that makes our roles different is not only man, but as we've obviously seen here, women. You don't think Paul, a Roman, who was the single most influential writer in the Bible, had anything to do with what "Jesus" said? Same with the other books of the Bible? Imperfect MEN wrote the books, and omitted the information given by women, such as Mary Magdalene. You don't think she had a story to tell? The rulers of past years have determined what our Bible does and does not say. Same with the BoM. Although it's much more accurate due to its age. Jesus didn't sit down with a pen (quill, whatever) and say, "Here is what I say, put it in there."

Anyway... The point is, it makes no sense whatsoever to deny anyone the opportunity to hold any position in the church. God inspires priesthood holders and the bishopric, and if they continue to be close-minded and think this way, they will never receive any revelation telling them that a woman should have the priesthood. Same with blacks. No one had an open mind until - wait - the civil rights movement!

Having children is not just the mother's ability, as we all know. It takes one man, and one woman. Exactly half. The woman carries it and bears it. Yes, there is a bond between mother and child - at first especially. However, if we don't stop assuming the MOTHER is the only one that can bond, we are sorely mistaken. Fathers can bond with their children just as well as mothers can, it's MAN that has made it awkward for men to do such things. (Why do you think men have nipples? Just kidding...but really....)

Edited June 20, 2008 by MaidservantX
Rule 3 and 4; User Infraction Issued

[beefche]

NormalMormon, is your basic question regarding why women do not/cannot have the priesthood? From my reading of this thread, I think all of your questions boil down to the perceived suppression of women by men (in the church).

BTW, I used spell check just for you. I have a B.A., but informal forum typing makes me lazy sometimes.

[Truegrits]

"Men and women joined together in marriage need to work together as a full partnership. However, a full and equal partnership between men and women does not imply the roles played by the two sexes are the same in God's grand design for His children. As the proclamation clearly states, men and women, though spiritually equal, are entrusted with different but equally significant roles. These roles complement each other.

Men are given stewardship over the sacred ordinances of the priesthood. To women, God gives stewardship over bestowing and nurturing mortal life, including providing physical bodies for God's spirit children and guiding those children toward a knowledge of gospel truths.

These stewardships, equally sacred and important, do not involve any false ideas about domination or subordination. Each stewardship is essential for the spiritual progression of all family members, parents and children alike."

(M. Russell Ballard/"The Sacred Responsibilities of Parenthood"/Ensign)

***All emphasizing is mine***

[Vanhin]

Good Morning NormalMormon,

These sisters (and others) that have replied to you have done so with pure intent, and you haven't even as much as acknowledged the least of their heartfelt thoughts and feelings. Your replies indicate that you consider yourself above them in some sense. I really wish you would stop that. Please don't continue to belittle and disrespect other people here. Principles of love and mutual respect should prevail here when discussing these things.

What do you think about the Church and the current prophet?

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[MaidservantX]

It seems as though both women and men are quick to sing the praises of women, and put them "higher" up on a pedestal than men, which is not what I was hoping to find.

Men say "You women do what we cannot."

Women say "Men don't have the BOND with their child."

And so on....

This feels simply patronizing. Like you must build women up in order to compensate for the fact that we do not have the same opportunities as men. You are right in that we are equal, but different. We are equal but different BIOLOGICALLY. The only thing that makes our roles different is not only man, but as we've obviously seen here, women. You don't think Paul, a Roman, who was the single most influential writer in the Bible, had anything to do with what "Jesus" said? Same with the other books of the Bible? Imperfect MEN wrote the books, and omitted the information given by women, such as Mary Magdalene. You don't think she had a story to tell? The rulers of past years have determined what our Bible does and does not say. Same with the BoM. Although it's much more accurate due to its age. Jesus didn't sit down with a pen (quill, whatever) and say, "Here is what I say, put it in there."

Anyway... The point is, it makes no sense whatsoever to deny anyone the opportunity to hold any position in the church. God inspires priesthood holders and the bishopric, and if they continue to be close-minded and think this way, they will never receive any revelation telling them that a woman should have the priesthood. Same with blacks. No one had an open mind until - wait - the civil rights movement!

Having children is not just the mother's ability, as we all know. It takes one man, and one woman. Exactly half. The woman carries it and bears it. Yes, there is a bond between mother and child - at first especially. However, if we don't stop assuming the MOTHER is the only one that can bond, we are sorely mistaken. Fathers can bond with their children just as well as mothers can, it's MAN that has made it awkward for men to do such things. (Why do you think men have nipples? Just kidding...but really....)

You don't say whether you are responding directly to me, but if so, I must say I consider that you have misrepresented what I said as far as your analysis does not cover the ideas I shared. I expect you were replying generally to several posts, and that's fine.

As you know, the bond of a father and his child is absolutely crucial. It cannot be missing, or the child is going to have severe social, psychological, spiritual and even physical damage.

I spoke in terms of "rule" not "bonding" and I did so deliberately.

By the way, men are capable of producing milk and nursing their infants. A few men have done so out of choice and to be close to their child. A few men who wouldn't normally consider such a thing have done so to save the life of their child when the mother wasn't available (i.e. so the baby doesn't starve). While not for everyone, I, myself, think it's a beautiful possibility.

I also find women all over in the scriptures. People always have said to me that the scriptures are men, men, men but I have never found it to be so. Judeo-Christian scripture is permeated with femaleness. One of my favorites is Genesis 21:19. In Hagar's experience part of what we learn is that the revelations of God are for everyone (not just one gender). In fact, God is particularly interested in connecting with the woman in order to provide her with what she needs to be able to provide for those she loves and has stewardship over. Perhaps I should start a thread about women in the scriptures. I absolutely love that subject.

You sound as if you are in a lot of pain and that you have experienced a great deal of hurt. I'm sorry that you don't feel valued. That is a heavy, excruciating experience, I speak from experience. I hope that if you are not receiving earthly manifestations of the value you have as a daughter of God, that you will seek for it and receive the nectar of it in the arms of your Savior and Heavenly Father. I can testify that those two men think YOU are AMAZING, NormalMormon. :)

[NormalMormon]

Good Morning NormalMormon,

These sisters (and others) that have replied to you have done so with pure intent, and you haven't even as much as acknowledged the least of their heartfelt thoughts and feelings. Your replies indicate that you consider yourself above them in some sense. I really wish you would stop that. Please don't continue to belittle and disrespect other people here. Principles of love and mutual respect should prevail here when discussing these things.

What do you think about the Church and the current prophet?

Sincerely,

Vanhin

First of all, I'm not trying to belittle, and in no way do I consider myself “better” than them. You are the one who first pointed the finger here. I am just not sugar coating anything. I am not being rude either, just trying to get as much insight as possible. The only way to do that is to state things how they are. Sorry for not stating so, but I do appreciate those who took the time to write. Simply, no one has answered my questions thoroughly because frankly, I don't think anyone knows. I am simply stating my opinions and facts. Yet the only answers I keep getting from people are the same things over and over again, and everyone seems to just address the things THEY feel are important. Yes, my posts are kind of long – but at least take the time to read and understand and reply to the things that matter. The only responses I keep getting are, “Pray this, and read scriptures that” – which I already do. But don’t you think I would get answers there instead of coming here? I am talking about our church as a society (and really the world.) However, I suppose the world isn’t ready for perfect equality. Perfect equality would give literally everyone the right to do the same as everyone else, even in church.

While many leaders of the church have emphasized the equality in our roles as men and women, it doesn’t matter what they say. Men and women can go on claiming that giving life, and nurturing children, etc… is EQUAL to that of holding the priesthood, presiding over every meeting, being able to baptize, being able to give blessings, being in the bishopric, being the bishop for that matter, and all the other things men with the priesthood can do, and women cannot. It’s like we are punished for being able to bear children because it is thought of as a gift that men cannot have. (Which is not anyone’s fault but nature’s.) Must society “make-up” for the “blessing” of child bearing by giving men opportunities that women cannot have?

[rameumptom]

Funny how we can't even talk about our faith in our own forums.

I understand most of it. Only you still didn't answer....

Why can't WOMEN have the priesthood?

Women DO get the priesthood. When man and woman are sealed together in the temple, together they enter into the Patriarchal Priesthood. President Packer described it like this: the man has two keys. One key opens a vault door. Within is a chest that requires two keys. The man must have the woman and her key to open the chest.

Each of us have different responsibilities in our earthly missions. Women fulfill their priesthood duty through pro-creation and raising a righteous generation. Men fulfill their priesthood duty through service and being a righteous husband and father. Similar, but different responsibilities for each.

All have the ability to become gods under God the Father, through Christ.

Blake Ostler, in Approaching Mormon Thought, states that the Godhead is one God in all things but physical bodies. They especially are one in their loving relationship with one another. God encourages us to join him and others in such a loving relationship, and in so doing teaches us how to become one with another through the marriage covenant. A man leaves his parents and becomes one with his wife, is a literal concept when we consider the unique and extremely intense and consuming relationship between Godhead members, or between Celestial beings.

[Truegrits]

~~~NormalMormon~~~

Yet the only answers I keep getting from people are the same things over and over again

I think the reason that so many of us are saying the same thing "over and over", is because that is what we believe to be the truth.

We cannot make you understand or believe anything we say. Then again, we cannot tell you anything BUT what we believe. Round and round it goes, huh?

I think that sometimes one has to adjust their perspective, their way of looking at an issue, to understand it. I do not mean one has to agree...just understand.