NormalMormon questions about the priesthood.


Vanhin
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~~~NormalMormon~~~

I think the reason that so many of us are saying the same thing "over and over", is because that is what we believe to be the truth.

We cannot make you understand or believe anything we say. Then again, we cannot tell you anything BUT what we believe. Round and round it goes, huh?

I think that sometimes one has to adjust their perspective, their way of looking at an issue, to understand it. I do not mean one has to agree...just understand.

Can we understand why none of the original 12 apostles were women, etc.? As you say, sometimes God has reasons we may not fully understand. But if we just trust that God knows things we do not, we can have peace on many potentially difficult subjects. We can view something as a politically motivated thing done by an evil cabal of men, or we can seek God's understanding and peace, and follow him patiently.

As it is, I do not look forward to the callings I've held. It isn't a power trip to be in a bishopric. It means hours each day and week that one cannot be with his own family, because he is serving another. Of course, this is true with callings for sisters, as well.

I do not feel jealous, simply because God passed me by again on that bishop's calling. Instead, I go forward seeking to serve him wherever he currently wants me. To have gratitude for what He gives us is a very important quality to have.

As I said above, women can hold the Patriarchal Priesthood, which is the highest priesthood on this earth. It binds families together, which is God's greatest gift to man.

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Well the thing is, I DO understand. I am playing devil's advocate mostly, as I really (somtimes secretly) want to be a stay at home mom with a bunch of little runts, and I want my husband to go earn all the money. I think it's completely NUTS that couples choose not to have children. (Mostly.) That's just my personal belief.

But I can't sit back and pretend that I think it is acceptable for an entire church full of male leaders (yes, LEADERS) not to give the exact same opportunity to women. And with the only reason for NOT doing do because women have a different "responsibility."

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rameumptom -

Thanks. You actually gave some insight there. While we can have the Patriarchal Priesthood, that doesn't give us the authority to baptize, confirm, lead, etc...

Yeah, none of the apostles were women..., but that was when women weren't held in the same regard as they are today.

Ugh. This whole things annoys me.

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And with the only reason for NOT doing do because women have a different "responsibility."

At the risk of being accused of insensitivity....

Why do you say this is the only reason? Do you think that because you don't know of any other reason, there IS no other reason? I use this a lot for myself. Helps me be a bit more humble.

HiJolly

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A fav. quote:

"Living with ambiguity is a form of intellectual honesty, of

humility. It is only when we admit that we don't know that we

are receptive to what lessons may be taught. In some strange

way, it also brings an inner peace since we are no longer

fighting reality to maintain our inner fantasies on how things

should be. While I am characterizing it as an intellectual

process, it also has spiritual implications, since only an open

mind is capable of hearing God."

-- Andy Piereder (on Eyring-L)

HiJolly

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rameumptom -

Thanks. You actually gave some insight there. While we can have the Patriarchal Priesthood, that doesn't give us the authority to baptize, confirm, lead, etc...

Yeah, none of the apostles were women..., but that was when women weren't held in the same regard as they are today.

Ugh. This whole things annoys me.

And not all of us can be apostles or mothers, either. At least not here on earth. That can become a point of annoyance, or it can be a point where we learn to humble ourselves before God and seek His will for us. If we have a testimony of the gospel and of the living prophets, then we need only trust that God will fix anything that isn't perfect. And that includes us, if we remain humble.

I could be annoyed with God because my wife and I have not had kids. Why not us, when there are so many abusive people out there that can drop them out 3 at a time?

I could be annoyed with God because I was born to an alcoholic father, who tended to be abusive. Why wasn't I born into some awesome family? Why wasn't Thomas Monson or Bill Gates my Dad?

I could be annoyed because I haven't had a First Vision experience.

I could be annoyed no one around me has adequate answers to my questions.

I could be annoyed because I wasn't born rich. Or wasn't born under the covenant. Or, or, or....

Sometimes (and I'm speaking of people in general, since I do not know your personal experience) the fault does not lie in the stars, but in ourselves. God gives us weaknesses and challenges and questions, so that we can learn to be humble. And in humility, He is able to change us into Christ-like beings.

Elder Joseph F. Smith lost a daughter around 1860. He was grief-stricken over it, and pondered and prayed to God to know what would happen to her and all others that went to the Spirit World. He awaited an answer. And waited. And waited.

In 1918, two weeks before his own death, the Lord revealed D&C 138 to him. It answered the question he had carried with him for 60 years. Imagine what would have occurred had he chosen to be annoyed and walk away from the gospel over that one poignant moment and question that seemed to go unanswered. He would not have become Prophet, nor would he have had the assurance that the gospel sealings would reunite them one day.

I don't have all the answers. I have honest questions about the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, and hundreds of gospel topics. But I'm not annoyed that I lack an answer. I know part of the joy is in the journey and effort, and eventually it will all be revealed to me.

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Well the thing is, I DO understand. I am playing devil's advocate mostly, as I really (somtimes secretly) want to be a stay at home mom with a bunch of little runts, and I want my husband to go earn all the money. I think it's completely NUTS that couples choose not to have children. (Mostly.) That's just my personal belief.

But I can't sit back and pretend that I think it is acceptable for an entire church full of male leaders (yes, LEADERS) not to give the exact same opportunity to women. And with the only reason for NOT doing do because women have a different "responsibility."

I think there is a different reason. It will occur when God reveals to the prophet that such a change needs to happen. As I said, there is the Patriarchal Priesthood, which both man and woman share. Beyond that, only God can make a change, and occasionally has done so, such as with the 1978 priesthood revelation lifting the ban on black men.

If God chooses to extend priesthood in other ways, he can do so. But it will be in his own time and pleasure. Eventually, we will all understand these things, when we see all things in fullness. But, as with Paul, we see through a "glass, darkly." We don't have all the answers. And God doesn't feel the need to answer every question right now. This creates in us a choice: do we humbly follow God and hope and faith; or do we demand our political rights and walk out on him?

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Imperfect MEN wrote the books, and omitted the information given by women, such as Mary Magdalene. You don't think she had a story to tell? The rulers of past years have determined what our Bible does and does not say. Same with the BoM. Although it's much more accurate due to its age.

Yes, imperfect men wrote and translated the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Had God waited for the perfect man to show up to do His work, we'd be a lost people from the moment Adam and Eve set foot out of the garden of Eden. Omissions are both because of the doing of man but also by the command of God. The scriptures have clear examples of both (Bible and Book of Mormon) if you search them. I would be happy to list examples, but I feel like you are here more to nit pick than because of a sincere desire to understand God's way and my examples would be quickly overlooked, criticized or dismissed.

Jesus didn't sit down with a pen (quill, whatever) and say, "Here is what I say, put it in there."

Yes He did. Did you know that when Christ visited with the Nephites He chastised them for not having included the words of Samuel the Lamanite in their records? He commanded them to write it down. Read 3 Nephi 23. Basically, He did say "Here is what I say, put it in there." (As you infer). He specifically dictated to them scripture and commanded them to include it in their records. Read 3 Nephi 24. He also approved and expounded the scriptures to them, especially Isaiah, which they had then written. I recommend reading 3 Ne chapters 11-28. There is so much to learn from these chapters.

Well the thing is, I DO understand. I am playing devil's advocate mostly...But I can't sit back and pretend that I think it is acceptable for an entire church full of male leaders (yes, LEADERS) not to give the exact same opportunity to women. And with the only reason for NOT doing do because women have a different "responsibility."

Whether or not you pretend it is acceptable does not alter the fact that God has instituted it this way. Playing devil's advocate hampers your personal spiritual growth but if you earnestly seek to find the answers, they are already there waiting to be discovered, line upon line and precept upon precept. We could sit here and try and prove everything to you as we have proven to ourselves, but the gospel does not work this way. It is up to you to prove it to yourself before God. That is your test and my test.

3 Ne. 17: 1-3

1 Behold, now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he looked round about again on the multitude, and he said unto them: Behold, my time is at hand.

2 I perceive that ye are weak, that ye cannot understand all my words which I am commanded of the Father to speak unto you at this time.

3 Therefore, go ye unto your homes, and ponder upon the things which I have said, and ask of the Father, in my name, that ye may understand, and prepare your minds for the morrow, and I come unto you again.

Jesus taught the Jews in parables for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see but he taught and showed the Nephites great things because of their great faith and belief. We must discern with our spiritual eyes and seek the things of the Spirit for that is how the Lord operates. Looking for proof from us will leave you unfulfilled and unsatisfied. This is not how the Lord teaches. I hope you take the time to search the answers for yourself and take it to the Lord and gain a testimony. We are here to help you on your journey but we can't take the steps for you. You must be open to it in your heart.

Ugh. This whole things annoys me.

Please don't be annoyed. Instead seek to understand these things so that you will strengthen your testimony and be edified. Search the scriptures, glean the information we share, pray and fast, ask the Lord for guidance so that you can understand as you search. We learn line upon line until our knowledge grows to perfection, whether in this life or the next.

Best wishes.

Edited by skalenfehl
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First of all, I'm not trying to belittle, and in no way do I consider myself “better” than them. You are the one who first pointed the finger here. I am just not sugar coating anything. I am not being rude either, just trying to get as much insight as possible. The only way to do that is to state things how they are. Sorry for not stating so, but I do appreciate those who took the time to write. Simply, no one has answered my questions thoroughly because frankly, I don't think anyone knows. I am simply stating my opinions and facts. Yet the only answers I keep getting from people are the same things over and over again, and everyone seems to just address the things THEY feel are important. Yes, my posts are kind of long – but at least take the time to read and understand and reply to the things that matter. The only responses I keep getting are, “Pray this, and read scriptures that” – which I already do. But don’t you think I would get answers there instead of coming here? I am talking about our church as a society (and really the world.) However, I suppose the world isn’t ready for perfect equality. Perfect equality would give literally everyone the right to do the same as everyone else, even in church.

While many leaders of the church have emphasized the equality in our roles as men and women, it doesn’t matter what they say. Men and women can go on claiming that giving life, and nurturing children, etc… is EQUAL to that of holding the priesthood, presiding over every meeting, being able to baptize, being able to give blessings, being in the bishopric, being the bishop for that matter, and all the other things men with the priesthood can do, and women cannot. It’s like we are punished for being able to bear children because it is thought of as a gift that men cannot have. (Which is not anyone’s fault but nature’s.) Must society “make-up” for the “blessing” of child bearing by giving men opportunities that women cannot have?

Hey NormalMormon,

Thanks for expressing your gratitude to those who have been trying to answer you. That goes a long way, believe me.

You are more than welcome to express yourself, and not "sugar coat" things. I certainly don't have any problems with that. I re-posted your questions in a new thread, because I saw an opportunity for us clear some of this stuff up, and have a conversation about this. I'm happy that you are here asking these questions. Others have also expressed their gratitude for allowing them the opportunity to talk about things that are near and dear to them, like motherhood is.

It should be clear to you by now that your original misconceptions about husbands choosing from among their many wives who is to be exalted or not, and the conditions for plural marriage, should that ever be reintroduced, do not necessarily represent truth. At least according to our scriptures.

By now you should be aware that both males and females have the exact same possibility of not being prepared for the temple the first time they go, and that there is no conspiracy to keep prepararion from one gender or another. Also it's not necessary, or even the ideal that males go through the temple first, and it's certainly not true in practice since many women go to the temple before or at the same time as their husbands (or husbands to be). These were also some of your concerns.

It should be perfectly clear to you that the Church absolutely encourages both males and females to get an education, and to gain knowledge, and that such things are not just the province of males. It's not even a valid concern, generally speaking, because the teachings of the Church have been crystal clear on education for males and females all along. I don't even know why someone would even think otherwise, if they are familiar with the teachings of the prophets concerning these things. But obviously someone does, so don't get me wrong. It's just difficult for me to believe that someone as intelligent as you, has missed the mark on this so completely.

But it's increasingly clear to me that your main question is, "Why can't women have the priesthood?".

The truth is, we don't know why, because God hasn't revealed it yet. We have a pretty good idea, and some of the answers given by the fine sisters here have expressed those ideas.

But the answer that we do have, has already been given on this thread a couple of times. We organize the priesthood the way we have, and confer it upon who we do, in mortality, because that is the way God has instructed us through his prophets.

Do you believe that the prophet, who holds the keys to the directing of the priesthood on earth, is a prophet of God? Do you believe that Thomas S. Monson is a prophet of God?

This Church operates by revelation. It is Jesus Christ who leads this Church, and if you believe that, then you must understand that it is operating according to his wishes. Do you believe that?

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited by Vanhin
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We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.

All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshiped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize his or her divine destiny as an heir of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.

The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

We declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God’s eternal plan.

Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. “Children are an heritage of the Lord” (Psalms 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, to teach them to love and serve one another, to observe the commandments of God and to be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.

The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.

We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.

This proclamation was read by President Gordon B. Hinckley as part of his message at the General Relief Society Meeting held September 23, 1995, in Salt Lake City, Utah.

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I apologize if this has already been stated, but I didn't want to read through all of the posts. In any case, I seem to recall President Hinckley stating in his 60 Minutes interview that women would receive the priesthood when God told us to extend it to them. The day could come when women are asked to bear the priesthood to better the world.

But bear in mind this one interesting thought. We perform priesthood ordinances in the temple. Among those ordinances are the washings and anointings. But male ordinance workers perform this ordinance for men, and female ordinance workers perform it for women...ergo, women wielding the priesthood.

That's all I'll say about my quirky views on the priesthood (which are probably borderline heretical anyway).

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First of all, I am not planning on "leaving" the church for this little discrepancy. I understand that in God's due time He will reveal all, and possibly allow women to have the priesthood one day. I, along with everyone in here, cannot presume to know why he hasn't revealed it yet. The feminist movement already happened, and we still did not receive and revelation that women should hold the priesthood. The civil rights movement happened, yet He then revealed that blacks could hold the priesthood.

With so many women in the church opting to defend men's right to the sole holding of the priesthood, I guess it wouldn't make sense but to us select few who find it unequal. Until women actually start *caring* whether or not they are able to have it, I don't think God will reveal it.

Just because I am being straightforward, doesn't mean I am "nitpicking." And I haven't discounted ANY of the testimonies or answers given in this forum.

Thanks for answering the first few questions I had, they make sense. I guess I shouldn't go on heresay! I will let you know how things go in the temple.

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With so many women in the church opting to defend men's right to the sole holding of the priesthood, I guess it wouldn't make sense but to us select few who find it unequal. Until women actually start *caring* whether or not they are able to have it, I don't think God will reveal it.

Someone more experienced than I on this forum should post a poll for the LDS women. I'm curious on how many want to be ordained to the priesthood.

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First of all, I am not planning on "leaving" the church for this little discrepancy. I understand that in God's due time He will reveal all, and possibly allow women to have the priesthood one day. I, along with everyone in here, cannot presume to know why he hasn't revealed it yet. The feminist movement already happened, and we still did not receive and revelation that women should hold the priesthood. The civil rights movement happened, yet He then revealed that blacks could hold the priesthood.

With so many women in the church opting to defend men's right to the sole holding of the priesthood, I guess it wouldn't make sense but to us select few who find it unequal. Until women actually start *caring* whether or not they are able to have it, I don't think God will reveal it.

Just because I am being straightforward, doesn't mean I am "nitpicking." And I haven't discounted ANY of the testimonies or answers given in this forum.

Thanks for answering the first few questions I had, they make sense. I guess I shouldn't go on heresay! I will let you know how things go in the temple.

Thanks NormalMormon for your thought provoking questions. Don't forget to ask a member of the Temple Presidency for clarification on any questions that you still have about the temple. They are more than happy to answer those questions, as that is one of their many responsibilities.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

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BTW, I don't think the Lord always waits for us to be ready for something in order for Him to reveal it. In particular I'm thinking of when Bro. Joseph introduced polygamy (please, please don't let this thread get into a polygamy discussion)--most people weren't ready to live that, but they lived it anyway.

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Someone more experienced than I on this forum should post a poll for the LDS women. I'm curious on how many want to be ordained to the priesthood.

I just created a poll.

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BTW, I don't think the Lord always waits for us to be ready for something in order for Him to reveal it. In particular I'm thinking of when Bro. Joseph introduced polygamy (please, please don't let this thread get into a polygamy discussion)--most people weren't ready to live that, but they lived it anyway.

Or the Law of Consecration.

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