Recommended Posts

I understand that as a LDS belief. It was a claim of Joseph Smith and so I understand why you want to hold onto that belief. I do not believe the Father has a body because I do not believe that He was resurrected. I do not believe the Father has ever lived and died like Jesus did.

Wouldn't the fact that one has a body and one doesn't mean that they can't both be perfect? It seems something as important as a body, and what all that means and implies, would either be essential for perfection, or not required. If essential, then both would have. If not required then neither would have.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 81
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Originally Posted by Dr T

I understand that as a LDS belief. It was a claim of Joseph Smith and so I understand why you want to hold onto that belief. I do not believe the Father has a body because I do not believe that He was resurrected. I do not believe the Father has ever lived and died like Jesus did.

If they are/were the same being, the Father being a spirit, but the Son, who came to earth, obtained a body, and resurrected, meaning now He has a body, if They are the same, what did Jesus do with the body He resurrected then?:confused:

The doctrine of the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, 3 different beings, united, one in all righteous purposes, have resurrected bodies, with the exception of the Holy Ghost, is plain and simple. The Bible shows that clearly; it's not only a claim by Joseph Smith.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to stir things up a bit .... and add some beef to this thread ...

Do any of you think its possible that Heavenly Father has a host of heavenly spirits that help to answer our prayers? If I enter the spirit paradise, will I be, or can be, one of those spirits?

I'll take my beef steak medium rare from Ruth's Chris or Mortan's ... ^_^

Yeah... that's a nice piece of beef you're asking for.... but I would discuss that (Spirit world) on another thread... One subject per thread :D

Let's continue drinking some lactose/fat free milk for now!

Edited by PapilioMemnon
To add last line
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's a question.

Does it really matter? Is it really that important?

When we stand before God to be judged (i think thats is something all denominations agree on) will our understanding of this theology be that important?

It seems to me that their is many more important and crucial aspects to the gospel regardless of denomination.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For your first question: THey are one substance-God. They make up the only true God. That's what that means. The Father is Spirit. Christ took on humanity in the incarnation where he lived a sinless life, died and was resurrected. There is no conflict there sir.

There is definite conflict between the Trinitarian doctrine and the Biblical understanding.

Not only is the presupposed doctrine of the Trinity unbiblical but it is illogical.

Why?

According to traditional Christian thinking, God the Father is Spirit. Jesus Christ is also God manifested in the flesh and therefore God. The Holy Spirit is God. Yet, God the father is not the son or the spirit, and same with the Son, he is neither the Father nor the spirit; and finally, neither is the Spirit the Father and the Son. But yet, they are one and the same and of the same substance.

To complicate things even more. The Oneness believe that God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are ONE and the Same. This is proven false because if this is true, then Either Christ's Resurrection never occurred or God does have a body of flesh and bones. Thus it is unbiblical.

Modalism teaches that God the father, Jesus Christ and thet Holy Spirit are One yet manifested in three forms. Again, this is false because one has to either deny Christ's physical bodily resurrection and glorification, or deny the reality that God possess a body of flesh and bones.

Traditional Trinitarianism is proven false because, again, focusing on Christ's bodily resurrection, one has to either accept it or deny it and in so doing has to accept that God is spirit or a Personage of flesh and bones.

The reality is, when you actually go back and look at the Biblical truth, Jesus Christ is the God of the Israelites (Which bring in the latter part of my question concerning the Masoretic text and the corruption therein). When one looks at the Table of Nations, there are 70 Nations, but when one reads Deuteronomy 32:8, the passage said that each tribe of Israel was allotted their portion of nations. How can you get 70 nations under 12 tribes? You would have to have 70 tribes, not Twelve, the Math does not add up. When you go to the original, it is referring to the fact that Israel was YHWH's Portion and that the 70 nations were given under the control of..... sons of Elohim. YHWH being the son of Elohim.

YHWH being Christ and the I AM of Israel (remember Christ saying I AM and the Jews took up stones to stone him for the blasphemy they thought he spoke because only God can say He is the great I AM).

This destroys two Christian notions right then and here. Christ being a spirit first and then being born into mortal to take upon himself mortal existence, life and a body, dying and then being resurrected and glorified with a body of Flesh and Bones distinquishes that Christ is separate from the Father and the Holy Spirit. All this destroys the Christian tradition, doctrine and teaching that God is spirit and is in a Trinity form. What the Bible teaches is the perfect doctrine of a Tri-unity and not a Trinity. Tri-unity distinquished the separate and uniqueness of the Father from the Son and the Spirit. In like manner, it distinquishes the separate and unique nature of the Son from the Father and the Spirit, and with the separation of the unique nature of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the son. No, they are not three Gods, but three persons that are unified in divine sovereign will and perfect omniscience.

Who created the heavens and the earth? Christ, through the power and authority of God the father.

This is what Christians can in any way answer. No matter how hard they try and attempt. I could not for the life of me answer the question to the support of the doctrine of the Trinity even when I have left the LDS Faith and started attacking the LDS Faith and the doctrines. It is the doctrines of the Trinity that have kept me partial to the reality that there are doctrines in the Mormon Faith that are far more biblical than what Christians and ex mormon's truly think and understand.

The only proble is that many people do not take the time to actually study out and check resources and references. I have, even after I have left the LDS Faith.

The Bible truly does teaches and supports the first article of faith of the Mormon Church. And that is why I am starting to come back to the LDS Faith and coming back to the LDS Church.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's a question.

Does it really matter? Is it really that important?

When we stand before God to be judged (i think thats is something all denominations agree on) will our understanding of this theology be that important?

It seems to me that their is many more important and crucial aspects to the gospel regardless of denomination.

It is essential!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Username-Removed

Yeah... that's a nice piece of beef you're asking for.... but I would discuss that (Spirit world) on another thread... One subject per thread :D

Let's continue drinking some lactose/fat free milk for now!

EEEWWW!,

Alright, alright!

First of all, I can't imagine living in a world where i didn't believe my Heavenly Father knows everything I have been through. After all, how could he direct me, inspire me, and give me hope, to be like him? Are these just words to those that have not experienced his Spirit before? A kind and wise Heavenly Father knows, understands, and guides his children.

Do words such as below, come from a man simply creating a following?

Moses 1: 5, 39

5 Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth.

• • •

39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Or does the Father's passion ring in your ears too, like it has mine?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Justice.

First of all, as others pointed out already, it's interesting that Christ would offer vocal prayer to "Himself" in the heavens if He was the same enitity or being as the Father.

Again, like I said, Jesus was not talking to himself he was talking to the Father. He is the only one of the three that took on humanity. BB in a minute to read the others.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Within the Trinity idea God three distinct centers of consciousness exist. they arn't separate beings, but the parts of God can communicate back and forth. So it is not just Jesus the man that relates to the Father.

Essentially, do you believe that God suffers from multiple personality disorder?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wouldn't the fact that one has a body and one doesn't mean that they can't both be perfect? It seems something as important as a body, and what all that means and implies, would either be essential for perfection, or not required. If essential, then both would have. If not required then neither would have.

Why? How did you come to that conclusion. Your assertion is false. Only one took on humanity for a reason-to live the perfect life and be the perfect sacrifice-that's all (although not minimizing that act). The Father did not need that and Jesus did not need that for perfection. Why do you make that claim?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If they are/were the same being, the Father being a spirit, but the Son, who came to earth, obtained a body, and resurrected, meaning now He has a body, if They are the same, what did Jesus do with the body He resurrected then?:confused:

He still has it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why? How did you come to that conclusion. Your assertion is false. Only one took on humanity for a reason-to live the perfect life and be the perfect sacrifice-that's all (although not minimizing that act). The Father did not need that and Jesus did not need that for perfection. Why do you make that claim?

How is the assertion if false.

Is Christ God, yes or no?

Did Christ die on the cross, yes or no.

Did Christ rise the third day and after forty days of administering to the apostles and disciples, ascend into heaven?

What did he say to Mary at his tomb when he rose? do not touch me for I have not yet ascended. But go and tell my disciples. And he makes an interesting statement that is only in the Gospel of Luke. I go to My God and your God, My father and Your Father regarding his ascension. So, according to Lukes Resurrection account, who does Christ ascend to?

When Christ does ascend, did he ascend into the heavens as a Glorified Resurrected Personage possessing a body of flesh and blood? Yes, because the scripture declares this.

How, then, is Christ God, possessing a physical glorified resurrected body of flesh and blood when he was God from the Beginning, was God manifested in the flesh and is now God in the heavens above when God is a spirit?

The answer is that Christ is not God the Father because Christ is distinct and separate in nature from God the Father, but of the same Divine Essence of God in that He is the Son of God. How is he the Son of God then?

Even a bigger question, How is Jesus Christ of Nazereth both the Son of God and the Son of Man? He was the Son of God before his mortal Existence. One can't be separate and distinct from their father if they are of the same substance and nature now can they? Are you of the same substance and nature of your father? or distinct and separate but yet of the same essence of your father?

If you can answer these questions with the simple yes, then it destroys the Trinitarian tradition and doctrine. If you answer no in support of the Trinitarian doctrine, then you have to answer no to these questions and in essence deny Christ nature and Existence.

That is the dangerous heresey of the doctrine and tradition of Trinitarianism because it truly denies the nature of both God, the Father and Jesus Christ.

Even further exposing the falsehood of the trinity of the doctrine, does not the new testament say that if one sees Christ, they have also seen God? Becasue Christ is of the same divine nature as that of His Father? And who is Christ's Father? Himself? Does God suffer from Multiple Personality Disorder? No, no no no.

Yes, Christ is God manifested in the Flesh, but Christ is not the Father any more than you are of your own father.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's a question.

Does it really matter? Is it really that important?

When we stand before God to be judged (i think thats is something all denominations agree on) will our understanding of this theology be that important?

It seems to me that their is many more important and crucial aspects to the gospel regardless of denomination.

Great question Hordak. I'm not God and I cannot answer for Him. It just makes me wonder how important it is to actually worship the real God. What if we worship a different Jesus based on a different gospel. What would the impact of that be? We know that there will be another gospel preached. What implication does that have on salvation in the end?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He still has it.

If he still has his body, would you then agree that Christ is separate and distinct from his father?

If not, how can Christ have a body but yet not be separate and distinct from God if God is a spirit and Christ has a body that is ressurected, glorified and physical?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's a question.

Does it really matter? Is it really that important?

When we stand before God to be judged (i think thats is something all denominations agree on) will our understanding of this theology be that important?

It seems to me that their is many more important and crucial aspects to the gospel regardless of denomination.

A lot of Christianity, especially mainstream, believes that those who God saves will not be judged, that judgment isn't really a "judgment" at all, but punishment.

It seems people really can't agree on anything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey STS,

Not only is the presupposed doctrine of the Trinity unbiblical but it is illogical./QUOTE] IF your post (#31) was an attempt to outline why it is unbiblical and illogical you did not succeed. I understand all of those heresies. One God in three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) as outlined in the Bible is something to be apprehended, as I have. I'll wait for you to give me hard evidence that the Trinity is unbiblical and illogical.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A lot of Christianity, especially mainstream, believes that those who God saves will not be judged, that judgment isn't really a "judgment" at all, but punishment.

It seems people really can't agree on anything.

Actually, within the Christian Community that excludes the LDS Believer and Member, while they differ and argue presupposed nonessential points of doctrine (free will vs. Limited will vs predestination, vs good works and grace vs grace only vs inerrantists vs errantists vs king james onlyists vs...whatever denominational christianity one aligns oneself too) they all agree to disagree.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey STS,

Not only is the presupposed doctrine of the Trinity unbiblical but it is illogical./QUOTE] IF your post (#31) was an attempt to outline why it is unbiblical and illogical you did not succeed. I understand all of those heresies. One God in three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) as outlined in the Bible is something to be apprehended, as I have. I'll wait for you to give me hard evidence that the Trinity is unbiblical and illogical.

Why are you taking a partial statement from my post and using it out of context and then saying "I am waiting for hard evidence" when I am actually providing actual biblical reasoning from the New and Old Testament. Are you afraid of using the Old and New Testament to defend your faith or you going to sit back and await an answer because you don't like the one given to you? I don't mean to be harsh here, but I have spent my time defending the Mormon Faith when I was a young Mormon Apologist and I have spent many years combating the LDS Faith and using the Christian arguments against the Mormon Faith and Believers and what you have just posted above is nothing more than what many Christian apologists complain and bemoan about on other religious forums that Mormon's do in presupposing that they (mormon's) are taking things out of context.

Again - here are my questions to you:

Does Christ have a physical body of flesh and bone - Yes or No?

The Bible clearly and distinctly teaches that Christ became a Mortal being. Christ was and is the Son of God. Christ is also called the Son of Man in the Bible as well.

Christ also declares himself to be the Great I AM.

The New Testament teaches that Christ not only was crucified, but rose the third day and rose with a glorified body of flesh and blood which he ascended into heaven with.

Now, the question you must answer (and which you have not successfully answered) is this:

How can Christ be of the same substance and essence of the father when the Bible - not tradition - teaches that Christ is clearly distinct and separate from God in both physical nature and attributes and titles?

Edited by SeattleTruthSeeker
clarifying further information?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even if you don't believe in the pre-mortal existence as we do, you have to believe what the Bible says is true. Listen to "God" speak, in the beginning when Adam ate of the fruit of tree of the knowledge of good and evil:

Genesis 3:

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The driving force behind this scripture is that man now had a body of flesh and bone AND knew the difference between good and evil. The prophet Joseph Smith taught that we needed 2 things to become like our Father in Heaven.

1) A physical body (which we obviously received through the Fall of Adam)

2) To understand the difference between good and evil (which God clearly says we acheived when Adam ate the fruit)

So, when we received our body and understood good and evil we became like God. It would not be possible for us to understand good and evil without physical bodies, and it would also be impossible for us to choose good over evil without agency given to us over our physical bodies.

This is more evidence that God the Father has a body, even though Jesus Christ had not yet received His. Notice that One is speaking to the other.

Behold, the man is become as one of us

That we can understand the difference between good and evil was brought about by having a physical body.

If God the Father did not have a physical body it would be impossible for Him to understand us for what we do while we are in ours. He must have one if He is to understand all things physical and spiritual.

Edited by Justice
Link to comment
Share on other sites

How is the assertion if false.

Is Christ God, yes or no?

Did Christ die on the cross, yes or no.

Did Christ rise the third day and after forty days of administering to the apostles and disciples, ascend into heaven?

What did he say to Mary at his tomb when he rose? do not touch me for I have not yet ascended. But go and tell my disciples. And he makes an interesting statement that is only in the Gospel of Luke. I go to My God and your God, My father and Your Father regarding his ascension. So, according to Lukes Resurrection account, who does Christ ascend to?

When Christ does ascend, did he ascend into the heavens as a Glorified Resurrected Personage possessing a body of flesh and blood? Yes, because the scripture declares this.

How, then, is Christ God, possessing a physical glorified resurrected body of flesh and blood when he was God from the Beginning, was God manifested in the flesh and is now God in the heavens above when God is a spirit?

The answer is that Christ is not God the Father because Christ is distinct and separate in nature from God the Father, but of the same Divine Essence of God in that He is the Son of God. How is he the Son of God then?

Even a bigger question, How is Jesus Christ of Nazereth both the Son of God and the Son of Man? He was the Son of God before his mortal Existence. One can't be separate and distinct from their father if they are of the same substance and nature now can they? Are you of the same substance and nature of your father? or distinct and separate but yet of the same essence of your father?

If you can answer these questions with the simple yes, then it destroys the Trinitarian tradition and doctrine. If you answer no in support of the Trinitarian doctrine, then you have to answer no to these questions and in essence deny Christ nature and Existence.

That is the dangerous heresey of the doctrine and tradition of Trinitarianism because it truly denies the nature of both God, the Father and Jesus Christ.

Even further exposing the falsehood of the trinity of the doctrine, does not the new testament say that if one sees Christ, they have also seen God? Becasue Christ is of the same divine nature as that of His Father? And who is Christ's Father? Himself? Does God suffer from Multiple Personality Disorder? No, no no no.

Yes, Christ is God manifested in the Flesh, but Christ is not the Father any more than you are of your own father.

There are a lot of questions there sir. :) yes, Jesus did die on the cross. without going through them all, yes to many of them. Why do you claim the Trinity denies the nature of both God the Father and Jesus? Again, one God in The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus is the only one that took on humanity. He was God YETtaking on humanity adds another nature so he can fully understand what we go through. Again, this is volumes. This is all foolishness to you and I would not expect it to be any different. Nothing I say will change your beliefs of convert you to salvation. Your beliefs are based on LDS doctrine. You see God as once being as we are now and that you can become as he is now if you believe Lorenzo Snow. Your doctine and "new revelations" come and I see your belief system as liquid/constantly changing as the years progress. If you don't believe that, do some study. See the initial claims of your founding fathers and compare them to today.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are a lot of questions there sir. :) yes, Jesus did die on the cross. without going through them all, yes to many of them. Why do you claim the Trinity denies the nature of both God the Father and Jesus? Again, one God in The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus is the only one that took on humanity. He was God YETtaking on humanity adds another nature so he can fully understand what we go through. Again, this is volumes. This is all foolishness to you and I would not expect it to be any different. Nothing I say will change your beliefs of convert you to salvation. Your beliefs are based on LDS doctrine. You see God as once being as we are now and that you can become as he is now if you believe Lorenzo Snow. Your doctine and "new revelations" come and I see your belief system as liquid/constantly changing as the years progress. If you don't believe that, do some study. See the initial claims of your founding fathers and compare them to today.

Now the questions are being evaded because the reality is, there are no answers you are able to provide and the generalized claim of "they are going to be foolish to you" is a copout, sorry to say.

Is God the Father separate and distinct from Jesus Christ?

Is Jesus Christ separate and distinct from the Father?

Is the Holy Spirit separate and distinct from both the Father and the Son?

If not, how and why when the Bible says that Christ is the Son of God and not God the Father?

Who is the Great I AM in the Old Testament? YHWH who Christ claimed to be in the New Testament when he says that he is the Great I AM and the Jews took up stones to stone him for they thought he spoke blasphemy because he proclaimed to be God - YHWH.

The fact is, Christians who hold to the Trinitarian doctrine, tradition and notion are unable to answer these questions because they are truth and are substantiated in the Bible.

Until you can show forth from Scripture and Reason from Scripture, nothing you say have any substance. I have paraphrased Scripture passages. I have presented information that is contained in Scriptures. Can you say the same?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My reply with be in RED (like Jesus' words hahahahahaha)

Hey STS,

Why are you taking a partial statement from my post and using it out of context and then saying "I am waiting for hard evidence" when I am actually providing actual biblical reasoning from the New and Old Testament. Are you afraid of using the Old and New Testament to defend your faith or you going to sit back and await an answer because you don't like the one given to you? I don't mean to be harsh here, but I have spent my time defending the Mormon Faith when I was a young Mormon Apologist and I have spent many years combating the LDS Faith and using the Christian arguments against the Mormon Faith and Believers and what you have just posted above is nothing more than what many Christian apologists complain and bemoan about on other religious forums that Mormon's do in presupposing that they (mormon's) are taking things out of context.

Again - here are my questions to you:

Does Christ have a physical body of flesh and bone - Yes or No? Yes

The Bible clearly and distinctly teaches that Christ became a Mortal being. Christ was and is the Son of God. agreed Christ is also called the Son of Man in the Bible as well. true

Christ also declares himself to be the Great I AM. exactly.

The New Testament teaches that Christ not only was crucified, but rose the third day and rose with a glorified body of flesh and blood which he ascended into heaven with. yes

Now, the question you must answer (and which you have not successfully answered) is this:

How can Christ be of the same substance and essence of the father when the Bible - not tradition - teaches that Christ is clearly distinct and separate from God in both physical nature and attributes and titles?

again, Jesus was always God along with the Father and the Holy SPirit but He took on humanity. The only one to do so. He emptied himself and lived as a man. When he said, if you've seen me you've see the Father as in I'm GOD MAN!

To answer your first question about: Because I'm going through your posts and see the underlying misunderstanding of what you are arguing against. So to save me time, I just posted my reply on those parts. I don't want to waste all my night catching you up on all your errors. I know you think you've cut through all the Christian material with a sharp knife but I can see that you do not understand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

STS,

You already came to your own conclusions already. It is not a "copout" as you say but something I cannot resolve for you (even though it is biblically based) and that's the truth and why I said, it is foolishness to you. I cannot compete with the deception-that's all there is to it. Please do not misread that; I'm not saying I cannot compete with you or your grand apologetic mind (even though I'm not an apologist myself).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share