The Godhead

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

My reply with be in RED (like Jesus' words hahahahahaha)

again, Jesus was always God along with the Father and the Holy SPirit but He took on humanity. The only one to do so. He emptied himself and lived as a man. When he said, if you've seen me you've see the Father as in I'm GOD MAN!

So, will you agree that Christ and the Father are [Separate and Distinct/I] from one another?

If not, please explain why and provide any scriptural reference.

[Dr T]

Just look at the diagram already posted. That's what we know, as laid out in scripture.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

Just look at the diagram already posted. That's what we know, as laid out in scripture.

In other words, you are not going to provide any true discussion, just merely saying "You are wrong and I disagree with you and you are foolish and believe false doctrines"

[Dr T]

STS,

We are unable to have a truth discussion. Read your posts sir. You believe you've gone through all the claims and found them wanting. You've already come to a different conclusion and you have a greatly different belief system. Again, nothing I saw will sway you or convince you of anything fruitful. I'm new to Christianity and there are people much greater than I that can spend the time to spoon feed you the truth if you so chose to listen. The whole "milk before meat" thing can be a double edged sword sometimes. The whole "precept upon precept" etc. same thing. I'm just not willing to waste my time right now. Not that you are a waste of time and not valuable to God. I'm just not willing to go around in circles with something that you will dismiss out of hand. Hey, I know, "Pray about it" if you don't get a testimony of the veracity of the Christian faith, just continue to pray for it. Brother, I'm sure I'd love to spend time with you and really talk about things but not anymore tonight. Thank you for your time.

[PapilioMemnon]

Hey STS,

Not only is the presupposed doctrine of the Trinity unbiblical but it is illogical./QUOTE]

IF your post (#31) was an attempt to outline why it is unbiblical and illogical you did not succeed. I understand all of those heresies. One God in three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) as outlined in the Bible is something to be apprehended, as I have. I'll wait for you to give me hard evidence that the Trinity is unbiblical and illogical.

Several references posted from the Bible (Not even the Book of Mormon or D&C) have already showed clearly that They are three different beings, although one in purposes, mind, goals.

We were created in His image (Gen. 2); He created us with spirit & body.

From the talk from Elder Holland already posted:

"We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings, noting such unequivocal illustrations as the Savior’s great Intercessory Prayer just mentioned, His baptism at the hands of John, the experience on the Mount of Transfiguration, and the martyrdom of Stephen—to name just four."

[VisionOfLehi]

Great question Hordak. I'm not God and I cannot answer for Him. It just makes me wonder how important it is to actually worship the real God. What if we worship a different Jesus based on a different gospel. What would the impact of that be? We know that there will be another gospel preached. What implication does that have on salvation in the end?

Are we seeking to find the Lord? Are we obeying his commandments and statutes? Are our hearts in the right place?

Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

STS,

We are unable to have a truth discussion. Read your posts sir. You believe you've gone through all the claims and found them wanting. You've already come to a different conclusion and you have a greatly different belief system. Again, nothing I saw will sway you or convince you of anything fruitful. I'm new to Christianity and there are people much greater than I that can spend the time to spoon feed you the truth if you so chose to listen. The whole "milk before meat" thing can be a double edged sword sometimes. The whole "precept upon precept" etc. same thing. I'm just not willing to waste my time right now. Not that you are a waste of time and not valuable to God. I'm just not willing to go around in circles with something that you will dismiss out of hand. Hey, I know, "Pray about it" if you don't get a testimony of the veracity of the Christian faith, just continue to pray for it. Brother, I'm sure I'd love to spend time with you and really talk about things but not anymore tonight. Thank you for your time.

Again, instead of actually answering the questions directly, the reliance on "You are wrong and I will not further communicate with you" is something that is not conducive to any form of discussion. What is plain to see (as I have stated in my original post) when I present the evidence from the Old Testament and the New Testament, the Christian believer is left to the same device of "Well, that is your interpretation and you are wrong and believe in false doctrines" and then try and change the subject.

Let me make even more simple:

"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hanth sent me unto you." Exodus 3:14

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58)

Quesiton, who did the Israelites believe I AM was?

Who did Christ say that he was when speaking to the Jews?

Next question.

How can the Father, Christ and the Spirit be one and spirit manifested in a trinity form as the Trinitarian doctrine dictates?

When you honestly look at the Old Testament and realize that the God of the Israelites was YHWH and YHWH (or Jehovah) was the Pre-incarnate Christ, you will realize that Christ, the Old Testament and the New Testament declare the reality of the truth.

That truth is that the Godhead is not a Trinitarian concept, but a Triunity doctrine of Three separate and distinct personages.

And, as presented, if Christ - being God to the Israelites - was the Son of God in the beginning, how did he become the Son of God? He did not become the Son of Man until his mortal ministry and incarnation. Christ does possess a body of flesh and bones that is resurrected and glorified.

Christ also declares that he has come to do the Father's will. Not his will. Christ separates himself from his Father several times in the New Testament - Why?

These questions, again, Christians can't answer because they refuse to admit that the Doctrine and tradition of the Trinity is a false and paganized doctrine that is heretical and has no place in the bible.

I don't care how many scriptures you present to show forth how the bible teaches a trinitarian doctrine. The fact remains on the premise that Jehovah told Moses he is the Great I AM and Christ telling the Jews that before Abraham, I AM signifying that he was God to the Israelites.

Yes, in one sense, the Ancient Israelites had one God and one God alone, and that God was Jehovah, the Preincarnate Christ.

[Dr T]

I don't care how many scriptures you present to show forth how the bible teaches a trinitarian doctrine.

Exactly and that is why I said, "it does not matter what I say" you are already convinced.

Jesus was the Great I AM. That is reserved for God. What does that tell you STS?

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

Exactly and that is why I said, "it does not matter what I say" you are already convinced.

Jesus was the Great I AM. That is reserved for God. What does that tell you STS?

Again, you take one partial statement and choose to respond to that and not respond to the entirety of the post.

Jesus Christ is the Great I Am.

So, if you believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one God as the Trinity teaches, then do you believe

That God has a body of Flesh and Blood?

Because if so, Christ being God is also God the Father and the Son and the Spirit.

This is logically impossible.

If God is Spirit (as the Trinitarian Doctrine teaches) Then what happened to Christs glorified body of flesh and bones that he rose with?

What do you do with all the scripture passages that teach that Christ is the Son of God and the Son of Man?

When did Christ become the Son of God and how can a Son be a father unto himself?

Even if Christ was God in the Beginning, how do you deal with the fact that the New Testament, Christ always constantly and consistently distinquished himself from the Father who is also God?

Again, these are the same questions I have asked over and over again. Again, the fact you refuse to answer these questions on the weak principle that "I am foolish" and "I am already blind and convinced"

Sorry DR. T.

I have spent several years studying the Bible, studying History, studying Ancient Near Eastern religions. I have studied doctrinal statements of Faith. I have defended the Mormon Faith, I have attacked the Mormon Faith and Doctrines.

The Trinitarian Doctrine is a Paganistic Doctrine that came out of the Nicene Creed of the Nicene Council that was called by a Pagan Roman Emperor who was never a Christian believer but was sprinkled on the head by a priest as a form of baptism, and this was done on Constintines death bed.

History does not lie, neither do archeologies, anthropologists and those individuals who are not as blinded as the Christian apologists like Norman Geisler and Matt Slick and others who hold to the Trinitarian doctrine.

what I meant by the statement that it doesn't matter how many scripture passages you show me that claim to support the Trinitarian doctrine, the fact is, they are misinterpreted and it doesn't matter because you refuse to see the reality of the heretical doctrine that you are embracing.

Call me false and say that what I believe is false, I have the same right to declare the same thing and have a stronger and a firmer foundation.

God the Father is separate and distinct. Jesus Christ is the Son of God who is separate and distinct from the father. The Holy Spirit is separate and distinct from the Father and the Son. All three are not three separate Gods as Christian Apologists falsely attempt to teach and share with people who investigate Mormonism, but all three of these divine beings are united in purpose, will and divine sovereignty to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of Mankind.

And, if you truly want to know the truth. The first practice and doctrine of a monotheistic belief system was not in Ancient Israel, but in Ancient Egypt when the Pharaoh Anepotepe declared that the Sun God Anton to be the one true God to be worshipped by the Egyptian people.

Again, answer my questions directly and show forth how and why the Trinity is biblical. If you can't then that is fine. Say so, but don't come back with another post where you take one statement of mine out of context and try and defend your heretical doctrines. It will not fly with me. I am not here for entertainment purposes. I am here to expose the false arguments of the Christian Apologists and reason with them and declare unto them that all those arguments that they attempt to use to reason and try and declare Mormonism a false doctrine is nothing but illfounded and fallacious presuppositions.

The doctrine of the Godhead as believed and accepted by the LDS Church is the one true pure doctrine that has finally been restored. Unfortunately, you would rather hold onto your pagan doctrines and traditions.

[VisionOfLehi]

For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

These things I command you, that ye love one another.

*whistles*

[Dr T]

Again, you take one partial statement and choose to respond to that and not respond to the entirety of the post.

Jesus Christ is the Great I Am.

So, if you believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one God as the Trinity teaches, then do you believe

That God has a body of Flesh and Blood? Jesus had a body when he took on humanity (as I've said repeatedly)

Because if so, Christ being God is also God the Father and the Son and the Spirit. No, one God yes but as expained again, Jesus is not the Father and He is not the Spirit, etc. Look at the diagram again.

This is logically impossible.

If God is Spirit (as the Trinitarian Doctrine teaches) Then what happened to Christs glorified body of flesh and bones that he rose with? The Father is Spirit

What do you do with all the scripture passages that teach that Christ is the Son of God and the Son of Man? I told you already, he is the Son of God, he took that role as the savior for man and he is the son of man in that in him he had a human nature as we see when he come to earth.

When did Christ become the Son of God and how can a Son be a father unto himself? He was God and the creator of all things. He took on humanity and came to earth. He is not the father unto himself. We view God differently as I said. I do not see him like a developed human. I do not think he had sexual relations with a woman like I do with my wife to have offspring. He did not father himself if that's what you meant by that.

Even if Christ was God in the Beginning, how do you deal with the fact that the New Testament, Christ always constantly and consistently distinquished himself from the Father who is also God? He pointed the way to the Father in his ministry here on earth. He was revealed to us in fulfillment of the scriptures and we also see that he was the embodiment of deity.

Again, these are the same questions I have asked over and over again. Again, the fact you refuse to answer these questions on the weak principle that "I am foolish" and "I am already blind and convinced" And those are the questions I gave answers to again and again in the same way sir. It is not that you are foolish but I do believe you are convinced and blind to the truth of God as revealed to us in the Bible.

Sorry DR. T.

I have spent several years studying the Bible, studying History, studying Ancient Near Eastern religions. I have studied doctrinal statements of Faith. I have defended the Mormon Faith, I have attacked the Mormon Faith and Doctrines.

The Trinitarian Doctrine is a Paganistic Doctrine that came out of the Nicene Creed of the Nicene Council that was called by a Pagan Roman Emperor who was never a Christian believer but was sprinkled on the head by a priest as a form of baptism, and this was done on Constintines death bed.

History does not lie, neither do archeologies, anthropologists and those individuals who are not as blinded as the Christian apologists like Norman Geisler and Matt Slick and others who hold to the Trinitarian doctrine. I agree with archeologies, etc. are valuable disciplines. Claiming that you've defended LDS in the absence of those things for your faith makes me wonder in what way you justify them in their dearth. I've been here for a while, I've looked into the LDS church, I was a seeker of truth, when first coming here and I learn quickly. My only guess at how you got to where you are is justification from the work of many LDS people that build on their belief system. That's why I said it is fluid and changing. Supports and props come along to rationalize where you're coming from. I've learned that to make fun of or dismiss someone's beliefs just shows that we don't fully understand it. People have devoted their lives to the LDS belief. They truely believe they are justified in their belief and for that I am not knocking it.

what I meant by the statement that it doesn't matter how many scripture passages you show me that claim to support the Trinitarian doctrine, the fact is, they are misinterpreted and it doesn't matter because you refuse to see the reality of the heretical doctrine that you are embracing.

Call me false and say that what I believe is false, I have the same right to declare the same thing and have a stronger and a firmer foundation. You can make that claim but you don't know me, you don't know my studies, or my personal relationship with God. You don't know my prayer life, or much about me at all. Claim away sir.

God the Father is separate and distinct. Jesus Christ is the Son of God who is separate and distinct from the father. The Holy Spirit is separate and distinct from the Father and the Son. All three are not three separate Gods as Christian Apologists falsely attempt to teach and share with people who investigate Mormonism, but all three of these divine beings are united in purpose, will and divine sovereignty to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of Mankind. I've read that. I'm not arguing with you about that. You do see them as three god's though. Do you not?

And, if you truly want to know the truth. The first practice and doctrine of a monotheistic belief system was not in Ancient Israel, but in Ancient Egypt when the Pharaoh Anepotepe declared that the Sun God Anton to be the one true God to be worshipped by the Egyptian people. OK

Again, answer my questions directly and show forth how and why the Trinity is biblical. If you can't then that is fine. Say so, but don't come back with another post where you take one statement of mine out of context and try and defend your heretical doctrines. It will not fly with me. I am not here for entertainment purposes. I am here to expose the false arguments of the Christian Apologists and reason with them and declare unto them that all those arguments that they attempt to use to reason and try and declare Mormonism a false doctrine is nothing but illfounded and fallacious presuppositions. See, the thing is I can't really approach things in the LDS faith that are false. I cannot lay out real questions and illogical because it's against the rules of this site and I've made some good friends here. I enjoy spending time here and have learned a lot. THere are major issues that an "apologist" as you say you are must wrestle with with the same standards that you use on others. I'm sure there are better sites devoted to hashing those things out.

The doctrine of the Godhead as believed and accepted by the LDS Church is the one true pure doctrine that has finally been restored. Unfortunately, you would rather hold onto your pagan doctrines and traditions.

That is what man has taught you. Of course you believe that because it is the foundation of Joseph Smiths undoing of established belief. It is th only way to start fresh. Produce other scriptures, to make claim of being a prophet, establishing power, poligamy, etc. Come on brother, use the brain God has given to you and see the context for your belief. Look at the history. Look at the comparisons of where you deviate from the Bible. I know it's appealing to swing to the other side and say, "Lets look at all the similarities and not the differences" but I think it's important to know the foundation of scripture (which LDS attack as beleiveing "only as far as it is correctly translated"-and which I see as the enemy's way of attacking Christian belief, which I'd guess you've bought into completely) As of recent times the push to see LDS as Christians has grown. Look back, there was the seperation and your church did not want to be called Christian now the big change. Why is that? I'm sure this type of posts will not be tolerated here. I am only responding to the attack of my beliefs and letting you all know my beliefs and where I'm coming from. Hope we can talk more but it's up to the mods I guess. They should all know me for who I am and not someone here to just tear other down. It's in their hands.

[Ankh]

Greetings SeattleTruthSeeker,

"The Bible truly does teaches and supports the first article of faith of the Mormon Church. And that is why I am starting to come back to the LDS Faith and coming back to the LDS Church.

Yes brother I fully concur. It seems we're both making our way back. Welcome back.

Ankh

[PapilioMemnon]

I have been from a faith that teaches the Trinity doctrine; When I started questioning it, and many other aspects of the faith that I could not find support in the Bible, no one could give me a straight answer with Bible support. At that time, I had NO idea about the LDS faith at all!!! Many other denominations, Christians, did not fit what I read in the Bible either.

Almost 4 years after moving away from the Church I spent 17 years in it, I met the Missionaries of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The first lesson they taught me was the Godhead, and the restoration.

IT SIMPLY MADE COMPLETE SENSE because the Bible is very clear about it.

Just because I chose a different faith, I didn't begin calling the other churches non-Christians because they believe in the Trinity theory.

WE ARE CHRISTIANS; THE NAME OF THE CHURCH BEARS HIS NAME, NONE ELSE. We believe in Jesus Christ and have TWO, not one, but TWO witnesses (The Bible and the Book of Mormon) that Jesus is indeed the Christ, the Son of God.

Everything we do, we do in HIS name ONLY.

No one else takes the glory; no other mortal being takes His place; He is the HEAD of HIS church, that bears HIS name, not of an Apostle, or any other mortal, ONLY HIS.

I find extremely interesting that someone can affirm that we are not Christians; It just reminds me of Alma (& Amulek) in chapter 10 & 11.

Elder Holland - The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent

Indeed no less a source than the stalwart Harper’s Bible Dictionary records that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].”3

So any criticism that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not hold the contemporary Christian view of God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost is not a comment about our commitment to Christ but rather a recognition (accurate, I might add) that our view of the Godhead breaks with post–New Testament Christian history and returns to the doctrine taught by Jesus Himself.

We can just agree to disagree in simple terms without offenses.

This thread is for people to discuss the doctrine of the Godhead, and learn what LDS teaches about it; it's not to become an argument of opposing views!

Thank you!

Edited June 23, 2008 by PapilioMemnon

[Dr T]

I will not talk about the name of Jesus being in the name of the LDS church as making it Christian and not comment on "Everything we do, we do in HIS name ONLY.

No one else takes the glory; no other mortal being takes His place; He is the HEAD of HIS church, that bears HIS name, not of an Apostle, or any other mortal, ONLY HIS." so as to not further any hard feelings with you Papilio. Just know that I was just responding because my faith was under attack and not understood properly.

[PapilioMemnon]

I will not talk about the name of Jesus being in the name of the LDS church as making it Christian and not comment on "Everything we do, we do in HIS name ONLY.

No one else takes the glory; no other mortal being takes His place; He is the HEAD of HIS church, that bears HIS name, not of an Apostle, or any other mortal, ONLY HIS." so as to not further any hard feelings with you Papilio. Just know that I was just responding because my faith was under attack and not understood properly.

Dr T, I don't know you, and vice-versa, but believe me, I'm simply stating things, and do not have any hard feelings towards you at all!!! I wanted to emphasize some aspects, and that's why I capitalized some words, to stand out, not meaning anything else at all!!!

However, I really don't like the exchanges that are going on between the 2 of you (Sorry, that comes natural since I'm a mother ), and I'm glad that it seems to have ceased...

I read most of your postings, and see and know what you believe because I used to be part of a church who taught that; I respect your views!

My intention for this thread was & is for people to discuss the doctrine of the Godhead, and learn what LDS teaches about it, what we believe and teach, that's all! That's why I created it under LDS Gospel Discussions, and not under Christian Beliefs or something like that.

Be well!

[Dr T]

Got it. Thank you.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

When a Christian claims that the Mormon Doctrine of the Godhead are false and heretical, they find that they are substantiated. It is when someone comes along and defends the faith and shows forth how wrong their doctrine is do they say their faith is under attack, but do not realize and recognize that they are the ones attacking the faith.

I was not attacking Dr. T's Faith, I was defending the truth and the reality of what the Scriptures teaches. Truth is sharper than a two edged sword.

The exchange is simple. Christian apologists can't answer and defend the trinity doctrine when it is truly exposed against scripture. Simple as that.

Personally, I have nothing against Dr. T. What I am against is the false allegations and bring forth the understanding and reality of what most modern Evangelical Christians can't accept and that is the truth. If this means that their faith is under attack, then they need to bear in mind that the Christian Community spends thousands of dollars attacking the LDS Faith through various forms of media. Why? Because the Christian believer is convinced that Mormonism is wrong and therefore take upon themselves to attack the LDS Faith.

If by defending the LDS Faith, you conclude that your faith is under attack, then that is an issue that you are taking way too personally.

I answered the questions and provided the support.

You have answered those questions and thus, the very last question I have for you.

Are you willing to accept the fact that God, the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are separate and distinct from one another?

If not, how can you reconcile your answers to my questions?

[Dr T]

Why I refuse and am not able to accept the Trinitarian notion is on the very biblical principle of Christ's bodily resurrection.

I have posed this question to many christians and not one could fully, scripturally and logically answer the question.

1) If God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are one in Substance (like water is one substance manifested in three forms - Ice, Liquid and Steam), then how can God be a spirit if Christ become a Mortal Being, died on the cross a perfect and righteous man, rise the third day with a glorified body of flesh and bones and yet still be one and the same substance of God who is a spirit?

2) If God, Christ and the Holy Spirit (Ghost) are one and the same, not distinct and separate from one another = who is the lamb in Revelation and who is the one handing the scroll to the one seated on the throne?

3) If God, Christ and the Holy Spirit (Ghost) are one and the same, then why did Ancient Israel practice a Henotheistic belief system and why was the Masoretic Text (which all Modern Old Testament bibles are based upon) changed to reflect a modern monotheistic belief?

No Christian can answer these questions effectively.

What I was talking about was your first post above. You do not see that as an attack? We will not continue that here out of respect for Pap and others.

[rameumptom]

That is what man has taught you. Of course you believe that because it is the foundation of Joseph Smiths undoing of established belief. It is th only way to start fresh. Produce other scriptures, to make claim of being a prophet, establishing power, poligamy, etc. Come on brother, use the brain God has given to you and see the context for your belief. Look at the history. Look at the comparisons of where you deviate from the Bible. I know it's appealing to swing to the other side and say, "Lets look at all the similarities and not the differences" but I think it's important to know the foundation of scripture (which LDS attack as beleiveing "only as far as it is correctly translated"-and which I see as the enemy's way of attacking Christian belief, which I'd guess you've bought into completely) As of recent times the push to see LDS as Christians has grown. Look back, there was the seperation and your church did not want to be called Christian now the big change. Why is that? I'm sure this type of posts will not be tolerated here. I am only responding to the attack of my beliefs and letting you all know my beliefs and where I'm coming from. Hope we can talk more but it's up to the mods I guess. They should all know me for who I am and not someone here to just tear other down. It's in their hands.

Well, Doc, that is IF you are indeed a Doctor...

Historical research shows that Origen agreed closer to the Godhead than the Trinity. He taught that Jesus was separate from the Father and was a "subordinate" god to Father. Eusebius the historian was exiled for believing in Origenism, rather than in the Trinity at the Nice Council. Margaret Barker, and many other Biblical scholars repeatedly have shown that the Jews and early Christians believed and taught in the anthropomorphism of God. They have explained the divine council, headed by El Elyon and his sons, particularly Yahweh. Margaret Barker has shown that the early Christians viewed Jesus as the mortal Yahweh, or Angel of the Presence.

Is the Trinity an ancient belief? Of course it is. But so is the belief in the Godhead. It is found throughout the Biblical writing, and history shows it. BTW, Origen was eventually determined to be a heretic centuries after his death by St Augustine, who basically put the death knell on Origenism and his view of the Godhead.

The Church has ALWAYS considered itself Christian. Always. Just look at the title of the Church! No other Church in modern history has had the name of Christ in it prior to the LDS. Now many include Christ in their name.

We have always seen the similarities as well as differences in our beliefs. At times, the Church has pressed the differences, and at times the similarities. But they've always viewed both. As it is, we do both right now. We are being forced out of the generic title of "Christian" by those who do not have a right to do so. The Baptist Church is not an "ancient" belief by any sort, and it is the main driver to prevent Mormons from using the Christian title. Only the Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches could be considered "ancient", and potentially have claim to the traditional title. So, if all Protestants, evangelicals, etc., were to renounce the claim of "Christian" so that the RCC can keep it to themselves, perhaps the LDS would also consider doing so, as well.

We do not disagree that we have a different view on many issues. But then so do many Christians. How many protestants pray to saints, or attend Mass, or believe that one must follow the Pope's counsel? Yet that is much more ancient and traditional than Luther's statements nailed upon the door of his (Roman Catholic) Church!

IOW, if such requirements are pushed down on Mormons, they should be liberally used on all other sects claiming the Christian title.

As for LDS "attacking" the Bible, I find your thoughts on this fascinating, but wrong. We are realistic on the Bible. No where within the Bible does it state that the Bible is "God-breathed." In fact, history shows that many other books were once considered sacred and used by early Jews and Christians, which are no longer in our Bible. Are you going to insist that St Jerome was so inspired as to include only perfectly inspired books, some of which he admitted he was unsure of the provenance? Or worse, he knew that Revelation and Hebrews were not written by John and Paul, but added them anyway in order to get the western Church to accept his list of scriptures?

How about the hundreds of books in the Dead Sea Scrolls that are not in our Bible? Or how about the Book of Enoch that is quoted 39 times in the New Testament, but is no longer part of the canon? Are these God-breathed, or did God suddenly decide that they weren't good enough for the Bible? If so, then why keep 39 quotes from Enoch in the NT? I'm confused here, just whether God feels it is a perfect book or not? Either Enoch was good enough for everyone to quote, or uninspired enough to not include in the Bible, which is it?

The reality is, the books of the Bible ARE inspired and contain much truth. And we are blessed to have that truth. But it still has gone through many translations, interpretations, and changing of hands. Many books have been removed that we have available today. Each of these are glaring evidences that the bible cannot be God-breathed, at least not how evangelicals would view it.

I do use my brain, AND I do see the context for my belief. "Brother"? Not a very nice way to insult a person's brain intellect, and then try and make it sound like you are a loving and kind sibling, eh?

It shows that your arguing is the emotional opinionated argument, and not the rational and logical argument based upon evidence; which, I provided some above.

Edited June 23, 2008 by rameumptom

[Dr T]

There are differences in denominations sir, you are correct. The fundamental issues however are not. Being fully immersed vs. sprinkling for baptism for example, that is not a salvation issue. When talking about who God is however, as laid out in the Bible, that seems to be a different story.

[rameumptom]

When a Christian claims that the Mormon Doctrine of the Godhead are false and heretical, they find that they are substantiated. It is when someone comes along and defends the faith and shows forth how wrong their doctrine is do they say their faith is under attack, but do not realize and recognize that they are the ones attacking the faith.

I was not attacking Dr. T's Faith, I was defending the truth and the reality of what the Scriptures teaches. Truth is sharper than a two edged sword.

The exchange is simple. Christian apologists can't answer and defend the trinity doctrine when it is truly exposed against scripture. Simple as that.

Personally, I have nothing against Dr. T. What I am against is the false allegations and bring forth the understanding and reality of what most modern Evangelical Christians can't accept and that is the truth. If this means that their faith is under attack, then they need to bear in mind that the Christian Community spends thousands of dollars attacking the LDS Faith through various forms of media. Why? Because the Christian believer is convinced that Mormonism is wrong and therefore take upon themselves to attack the LDS Faith.

If by defending the LDS Faith, you conclude that your faith is under attack, then that is an issue that you are taking way too personally.

I answered the questions and provided the support.

You have answered those questions and thus, the very last question I have for you.

Are you willing to accept the fact that God, the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are separate and distinct from one another?

If not, how can you reconcile your answers to my questions?

I guess it is a matter of speaking "boldly, without being overbearing." Tact is a key here, as both Godhead and Trinity have ancient followings. This is something Mormons AND Dr T have obviously ignored, as he also insists Joseph Smith invented the Godhead concept. Yet, it is older than the Nicene Council.

I agree that it is difficult, if not impossible, for Trinitarians to answer some of the questions you've asked. But there is one answer they can give: it is the mystery of God.

IOW, it cannot be answered, because God is "incomprehensible" and "unknowable" according to the various Trinitarian creeds. How can God both have a Body, and be a Spirit with No Body at the same time? It is a mystery of God, or at least the Trinitarian version of God.

It falls in the same way as we explaining the mysteries of God as we see them, as LDS. If we believe in successive generations of gods, just who was the first God to create the ones after him? We don't know, it is a mystery. On some things, there are no complete nor satisfactory answers available.

OTOH, Dr T has been insincere - There has been a Dr T on these lists for years that continues to insist that the Godhead has no basis in scripture. And that has clearly been debunked by both LDS and non-LDS scholars.

[rameumptom]

There are differences in denominations sir, you are correct. The fundamental issues however are not. Being fully immersed vs. sprinkling for baptism for example, that is not a salvation issue. When talking about who God is however, as laid out in the Bible, that seems to be a different story.

I agree that knowing who God is IS and important saving issue. However, given that both Trinity and Godhead are ancient beliefs, how can one say which is correct simply from a current reading of the Bible?

IMO, the key is that we accept Christ as our Savior. THAT is what the Bible requires of us, in order to be saved, is it not? It does not state that we have to accept Christ as part of a Trinity. It does state that we must believe in Christ resurrected. Beyond that, there is almost nothing in teaching that is required on this in the Bible. So, salvation is not dependent upon whether it is a Godhead or Trinity, but on our personal relationship with God.

Christ taught of the man who preached Christ, who was not one of his regular disciples, that he who is for us is not against us. I do not believe most Christian sects are against Christ, and are for him.

Having said that, I also believe in levels of resurrection that are determined by the amount of truth we embrace in life. While you may only believe in one heaven, the Bible and ancient Christian and Jewish teachings show us a variety of levels in that one heaven. And hopefully, we'll all gain the highest.

[Dr T]

OTOH, Dr T has been insincere - There has been a Dr T on these lists for years that continues to insist that the Godhead has no basis in scripture. And that has clearly been debunked by both LDS and non-LDS scholars.

Sorry Ram, I do not understand what you are saying here.

[VisionOfLehi]

Sorry Ram, I do not understand what you are saying here.

He may be putting words in your mouth, but he's saying that scriptures don't disprove the Godhead, and that you can "get" the Godhead from the Scriptures.

Some Trinitarians assert that it's fallacious and totally made up, but there is strong scriptural support (just as the Trinitarians show, too)

Edited June 25, 2008 by VisionOfLehi

[Dr T]

Thank you VoL. I wasn't sure what was meant by the "Dr T has been insincere" and "There has been a Dr T on these lists for years that continues to insist that the Godhead has no basis in scripture."