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"Our first and foremost article of faith in The Church of Jesus Christ

of Latter-day Saints is 'We believe in God, the Eternal Father,

and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost' (Articles of Faith

1:1). We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead

are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them

to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and

grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say

we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable

except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a

Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not

true."

(Jeffrey R. Holland, "The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent," Ensign, Nov. 2007, 40)

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Whenever a "critic/antaganist" drops in and throws a bomb to stir up trouble, I always want to post the first article of faith, and tell them that we'll start there and work towards whatever his/her issue is.

No sense discussing complex topics before the basics are understood.

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I appreciate the suggestion to start with a foundational doctrine like the nature of God. However, beginning a theological discussion with the LDS Godhood vs. the Trinity would hardly be a milky or simple. :-)

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I appreciate the suggestion to start with a foundational doctrine like the nature of God. However, beginning a theological discussion with the LDS Godhood vs. the Trinity would hardly be a milky or simple. :-)

The nature of the Godhead is as simple as it's stated.

The gospel doctrines are simple, but somehow, we mange to complicate them.

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The nature of the Godhead is as simple as it's stated.

The gospel doctrines are simple, but somehow, we mange to complicate them.

It is only simple at the surface - the nature of the G-dhead plays into many other doctrines was well. For example the doctrine of the fall: If there is only one G-d both before and after the fall and that one G-d is the same G-d then there was no fall and man needs no mediator.

The Traveler

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It would not be for the reason of having a theological discussion of the Godhead vs the Trinity(bomb throwers aren't much interested in discussion), but rather, so the other party can have a better understanding of our teachings and beliefs.

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I don't follow your logic there.

There is no mediator between man and the G-d of the Old Testament. If man fail and required a mediator in order the address the same G-d he fail from then the ancient scriptures have a serious flaw. Only if man must deal with a mediator since the fall was there really a fall.

If Jesus is the pre-fall G-d of heaven then how is it that Jesus could live among men (including thoses that are not cleansed from sin) that were cast out of his presents because of transgression?

The Traveler

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Why I refuse and am not able to accept the Trinitarian notion is on the very biblical principle of Christ's bodily resurrection.

I have posed this question to many christians and not one could fully, scripturally and logically answer the question.

1) If God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are one in Substance (like water is one substance manifested in three forms - Ice, Liquid and Steam), then how can God be a spirit if Christ become a Mortal Being, died on the cross a perfect and righteous man, rise the third day with a glorified body of flesh and bones and yet still be one and the same substance of God who is a spirit?

2) If God, Christ and the Holy Spirit (Ghost) are one and the same, not distinct and separate from one another = who is the lamb in Revelation and who is the one handing the scroll to the one seated on the throne?

3) If God, Christ and the Holy Spirit (Ghost) are one and the same, then why did Ancient Israel practice a Henotheistic belief system and why was the Masoretic Text (which all Modern Old Testament bibles are based upon) changed to reflect a modern monotheistic belief?

No Christian can answer these questions effectively.

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For your first question:

1) If God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are one in Substance (like water is one substance manifested in three forms - Ice, Liquid and Steam), then how can God be a spirit if Christ become a Mortal Being, died on the cross a perfect and righteous man, rise the third day with a glorified body of flesh and bones and yet still be one and the same substance of God who is a spirit?

THey are one substance-God. They make up the only true God. That's what that means. The Father is Spirit. Christ took on humanity in the incarnation where he lived a sinless life, died and was resurrected. There is no conflict there sir.

your second question:

2) If God, Christ and the Holy Spirit (Ghost) are one and the same, not distinct and separate from one another = who is the lamb in Revelation and who is the one handing the scroll to the one seated on the throne?

They are one God yes but they are not the same. See the picture:

http://www.gotquestions.org/images/trinity.jpg The Father is not the Son, etc. but they are one God.

The second answer addressed you third question too. As far as the monotheistic belief issue is concerned, I do not know exactly to what you are referring but there are many heresies that come from teaching there are multiple of Gods. Maybe it was just getting back to the unity of what the Bible teaches. You last comment that

No Christian can answer these questions effectively.

is just not true. It may just be that you do not understand and it's easier to say all Christians can't answer and move on from there. Edited by VisionOfLehi

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Dr T:

If they're not one and the same, but they're all still God... how does that make sense?

I've heard it compared to an egg. One's the shell, one the whites, one the yolk, but all still the egg.

But that seems more to me as if the three parts are manifestations of the egg. As if it's one entity appearing three ways.

And with this Trinity concept, what are the differences between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost? With the Trinitarian (and, well, non-Mormon) viewpoint of the Godhead, I don't see why the different manifestations were even necessary.

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It because the unity of scripture teaching there is only one God yet seeing the Father, Son and Holy Spirit possessing the attributes of deity, the only logical conclusion is these three make up the one God as seen in the picture I linked to above.

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Where is it then said that the Holy Spirit is God?

And why would God pray to himself? (Abba, abba!)

And where is it made clear that they're referring to there being only one god in existence, and not just that we're to worship one god? And how does this reconcile with older Judaic texts and scriptures that seem to refer to many gods, but God as the head?

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And why would God pray to himself? (Abba, abba!)

Jesus was not praying to himself. Let me see, you know he was praying to the Father. We see that in Jn 17 when He looked up and said, "Father, the hour has come..." We see the seperation however in His will from the Father. Ok, we know Jesus grew is knowledge and stature, etc. showing He was fully man. Jesus possessed the attributes of God and therefore we know he was fully God too. (see Col. 2:9). Yet he was not two people but only one, the hypostatic union. I know it get really complicated and there are volumes written on this (please don't use the "God is not confusing" or tell me "that is only because it's man's version of what God is like") I only used the word complicated there because there is a lot to understanding of the Being, GOD. So anyway, Jesus was not talking to himself or an extension of himself but to the person of the Father. That's all I want to say.

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You've got a seemingly sound standpoint there, but it still doesn't make sense to me. (It's not that I don't get it... It's just that to me, it doesn't make sense.)

Edit: I looked through that link, and a lot of it just seems to be interpretation. While I can see that there may be a scriptural evidence for that concept, it seems to be a bigger stretch than what I know.

I don't mean any offense to your beliefs, and I really appreciate your info. I've been trying to understand this concept for awhile, but nothing ever seems to suffice. (And I can look at it "non-Mormonly." I was agnostic for the majority of my life, and I tend to look at things from that viewpoint, first.)

Edited by VisionOfLehi

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"Our first and foremost article of faith in The Church of Jesus Christ

of Latter-day Saints is 'We believe in God, the Eternal Father,

and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost' (Articles of Faith

1:1). We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead

are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them

to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and

grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say

we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable

except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a

Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not

true."

(Jeffrey R. Holland, "The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent," Ensign, Nov. 2007, 40)

I'm not entirely sure if you realize what you're starting here. :o

The largest thread in the Religion Forum of the Sean Hannity board is titled: "Should you believe in the Trinity". That thread has attracted 12,000 posts and 123,000 views!

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Guest Username-Removed

Just to stir things up a bit .... and add some beef to this thread ...

Do any of you think its possible that Heavenly Father has a host of heavenly spirits that help to answer our prayers? If I enter the spirit paradise, will I be, or can be, one of those spirits?

I'll take my beef steak medium rare from Ruth's Chris or Mortan's ... ^_^

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Well, I'm not trying to cause a stir.

My intentions were and are to post threads that address our beliefs with the hope that LDS members will add their knowledge and "witness" of the beliefs we hold.

I hope that someone visiting this site, can easily find threads that address our beliefs rather than geting lost with threads that are playful (Not a problems with that), argumentative (Back and forth of opposed opinions), or threads that undermine/scorn our faith/beliefs/members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Days Saints.

With this in mind, I posted the First Article of Faith because it is the first.

Dr. T:

For your first question: THey are one substance-God. They make up the only true God. That's what that means. The Father is Spirit. Christ took on humanity in the incarnation where he lived a sinless life, died and was resurrected. There is no conflict there sir.

The Father and the Son possed resurrected, glorified bodies. Please read below from Elder Holland:

The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent - Elder Jeffrey R. Holland

General Conference - Oct. 2007 -

The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent

(Parts of the talk - Emphasis added)

"We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings, noting such unequivocal illustrations as the Savior’s great Intercessory Prayer just mentioned, His baptism at the hands of John, the experience on the Mount of Transfiguration, and the martyrdom of Stephen—to name just four.

With these New Testament sources and more8 ringing in our ears, it may be redundant to ask what Jesus meant when He said, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do.”9 On another occasion He said, “I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”10 Of His antagonists He said, “[They have] . . . seen and hated both me and my Father.”11 And there is, of course, that always deferential subordination to His Father that had Jesus say, “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”12 “My father is greater than I.”

To whom was Jesus pleading so fervently all those years, including in such anguished cries as “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me”14 and “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me”?15 To acknowledge the scriptural evidence that otherwise perfectly united members of the Godhead are nevertheless separate and distinct beings is not to be guilty of polytheism; it is, rather, part of the great revelation Jesus came to deliver concerning the nature of divine beings. Perhaps the Apostle Paul said it best: “Christ Jesus . . . being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”16

A related reason The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is excluded from the Christian category by some is because we believe, as did the ancient prophets and apostles, in an embodied—but certainly glorified—God.17 To those who criticize this scripturally based belief, I ask at least rhetorically: If the idea of an embodied God is repugnant, why are the central doctrines and singularly most distinguishing characteristics of all Christianity the Incarnation, the Atonement, and the physical Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ? If having a body is not only not needed but not desirable by Deity, why did the Redeemer of mankind redeem His body, redeeming it from the grasp of death and the grave, guaranteeing it would never again be separated from His spirit in time or eternity?18 Any who dismiss the concept of an embodied God dismiss both the mortal and the resurrected Christ. No one claiming to be a true Christian will want to do that.

My additional testimony regarding this resplendent doctrine is that in preparation for His millennial latter-day reign, Jesus has already come, more than once, in embodied majestic glory. In the spring of 1820, a 14-year-old boy, confused by many of these very doctrines that still confuse much of Christendom, went into a grove of trees to pray. In answer to that earnest prayer offered at such a tender age, the Father and the Son appeared as embodied, glorified beings to the boy prophet Joseph Smith. That day marked the beginning of the return of the true, New Testament gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and the restoration of other prophetic truths offered from Adam down to the present day.

I testify that my witness of these things is true and that the heavens are open to all who seek the same confirmation. Through the Holy Spirit of Truth, may we all know “the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom [He has] sent.”20 Then may we live Their teachings and be true Christians in deed, as well as in word, I pray in the name of Jesus Christ, amen."

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The Father and the Son possed resurrected, glorified bodies.

I understand that as a LDS belief. It was a claim of Joseph Smith and so I understand why you want to hold onto that belief. I do not believe the Father has a body because I do not believe that He was resurrected. I do not believe the Father has ever lived and died like Jesus did.

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John 17 is the best *written* evidence in the Bible that The Father and The Son are separate personages. It is when Christ offered the great intercessory prayer on behalf of all who believe in Him.

I'm going to post the scripture and offer comment. If you disagree with my comments or my interpretation, let's discuss them.

John 17:

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

First of all, as others pointed out already, it's interesting that Christ would offer vocal prayer to "Himself" in the heavens if He was the same enitity or being as the Father.

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Clearly, this has the sound of plural or multiple, not singular. But, we're not at the good evidence yet.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Scriptures like these could be confusing to some who believe in the Trinity. It makes sense either way.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

More confusing scripture.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Here is where Jesus' purpose for this prayer is made known. Here is where we have to ask ourselves exactly what He's asking for.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy btruth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

We've established who He is praying for, now He will be very specific for what He is praying for.

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Very specific wording and very hard to misunderstand.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Again.

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Again.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Here's the verse I want to concentrate on.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

If Christ was praying for believers to be "one" just as He and the Father are "One," which undeniably He was, and IF Jesus and the Father are the same being or entity, then WHY would He need to ask that the believers ALSO be with Him where He is?

If He is asking for believers to be One in personage, wouldn't that be a redundant question, and be improperly worded as also?

It can only mean that the Father and the Son are One in mind and will and purpose, and He is asking for believers to be One with them.

Edited by Justice

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