The Godhead

[prisonchaplain]

Here's a question.

Does it really matter? Is it really that important?

When we stand before God to be judged (i think thats is something all denominations agree on) will our understanding of this theology be that important?

It seems to me that their is many more important and crucial aspects to the gospel regardless of denomination.

No and yes. No, the person who makes a deathbed conversion, or the one who has not been gifted with literacy, nor the luxury of spending a significant amount of time studying the Good News, would not be judged harshly for holding vague understandings about God's nature.

BUT, Yes, the one who is literate, who takes the worship of God seriously, and who is blessed with time to obey God's command to "study to show thyself a workman that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of God," ought to take great care to understand just who this God is that s/he worships.

Could it be that this seemingly impractical matter of whether God is:

1. a Holy Trinity

2. is God the Father, with Jesus as a lesser being;

3. Jesus is the Godhead, appearing to us in different modalities (Father, Son, Holy Spirit),

4. or finally, whether God is a Godhead--a cooperative of three gods

is vitally important BECAUSE it forces us to think hard, and to extend great spiritual effort in order to better know the one we claim to love and worship? "But this matter doesn't help us feed the poor, provide for our families, or be a better person!" comes the retort. Nope. It's all about God, isn't it? Then again, is that not the heart of worship?

[hordak]

No and yes. No, the person who makes a deathbed conversion, or the one who has not been gifted with literacy, nor the luxury of spending a significant amount of time studying the Good News, would not be judged harshly for holding vague understandings about God's nature.

BUT, Yes, the one who is literate, who takes the worship of God seriously, and who is blessed with time to obey God's command to "study to show thyself a workman that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of God," ought to take great care to understand just who this God is that s/he worships.

Could it be that this seemingly impractical matter of whether God is:

1. a Holy Trinity

2. is God the Father, with Jesus as a lesser being;

3. Jesus is the Godhead, appearing to us in different modalities (Father, Son, Holy Spirit),

4. or finally, whether God is a Godhead--a cooperative of three gods

is vitally important BECAUSE it forces us to think hard, and to extend great spiritual effort in order to better know the one we claim to love and worship? "But this matter doesn't help us feed the poor, provide for our families, or be a better person!" comes the retort. Nope. It's all about God, isn't it? Then again, is that not the heart of worship?

Was I am the trinity the words of God? I know your not LDS and i'll be the first to admit i don't know your dogma(not sure it thats the right term ) but i assume ( I know you shouldn't) that you believe something is required for salvation? Otherwise no one would "waste" their Sundays at church so to speak. Is one of those things to understand the Trinity?

Assuming non LDS My friend is correct.(Not sure what he is.) and the only thing that is nessiary for salvation is to believe Jesus died for you then do you really think God would say. "Believed in Jesus,Check, Followed the commandments Check, Loved they Neighbor, Check. Wait a minute. All the times i prayed to myself and spoke about myself in the 3rd person in the bible lead you to think Jesus was separate. Down you go"?

If your flying to the miserable, humid, over populated,hurricane prone Gods waiting room while your friend is going to the wonderful land of theme parks , and beautiful white sandy beaches your both going to Florida.

Having a different perception of the same thing doesn't make the thing different.

[prisonchaplain]

Was I am the trinity the words of God?

To offer a very oversimplified affirmative: The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God--all this affirmed in Scripture, all agreed to by your church. Further, each of these is a distinct personality. Again, your church agrees. BUT, God is one. (Duet. 6:4). What to do with this apparent contradiction? Trinitarians have said the three persons are the one God, and so they are distinct in personality, but of one essence. As I understand it, your church has interpreted the schema of Deuteronomy as meaning that we only have one God to worship and follow.

I know your not LDS and i'll be the first to admit i don't know your dogma(not sure it thats the right term ) but i assume ( I know you shouldn't) that you believe something is required for salvation? Otherwise no one would "waste" their Sundays at church so to speak. Is one of those things to understand the Trinity?

You ask the exact right question. My answer is that I don't know. Certainly, a full, or even cursory understanding of the Trinity is not a prerequisite of conversion. The standard formula is:

A. ADMIT you are a sinner.

B. BELIEVE Jesus died for your sins.

C. CONFESS your sins to God, and ask for his mercy, on the basis of Christ's shed-blood for those sins.

But then what? We grow in our salvation. Some call this "progressive sanctification." We study the Scripture, we join and participate in the community of faith (church), we obey the commands of Jesus, including the sacraments of water baptism and holy communion.

And so, now that we walk with the Spirit of God, and are to be growing closer to Him, what does it mean if we come across a wrong teaching about something as important as the nature of God? Does it mean that we are not walking with the Holy Spirit? Does it mean that we rejected the voice of God? What would allow us to be carried off by wrong teaching about something as foundational as the nature of God? And, what will God's response be to our error? I'm neither in a position to condemn such a soul to hell, nor to offer false hope that it's ultimately no big deal.

Assuming non LDS My friend is correct.(Not sure what he is.) and the only thing that is nessiary for salvation is to believe Jesus died for you then do you really think God would say. "Believed in Jesus,Check, Followed the commandments Check, Loved they Neighbor, Check. Wait a minute. All the times i prayed to myself and spoke about myself in the 3rd person in the bible lead you to think Jesus was separate. Down you go"?

Maybe and maybe not. What if God urged, compelled, alarmed, and brought true teaching across that one's path repeatedly, and s/he rejected it in favor of "man's wisdom?" I don't have the answer. Even if one was a new believer, and was quickly seduced into a false belief, I'm not sure how serious a matter that would be. I highly doubt that such an error would be trivial, though.

If your flying to the miserable, humid, over populated,hurricane prone Gods waiting room while your friend is going to the wonderful land of theme parks , and beautiful white sandy beaches your both going to Florida. Having a different perception of the same thing doesn't make the thing different.

While I get the point, both things are true about S. Florida (lived there for 4 years). However, we can't all be right about the nature of God. I want to understand God as He really is.

[PapilioMemnon]

To offer a very oversimplified affirmative: The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God--all this affirmed in Scripture, all agreed to by your church. Further, each of these is a distinct personality. Again, your church agrees. BUT, God is one. (Duet. 6:4). What to do with this apparent contradiction? Trinitarians have said the three persons are the one God, and so they are distinct in personality, but of one essence. As I understand it, your church has interpreted the schema of Deuteronomy as meaning that we only have one God to worship and follow.

Hello PC

They are ONE in purpose, mind, ideas, thoughts, goals,... The same way He commanded us to be of ONE MIND. We, billions of people, can't be one physically, but if we came together to see/think/view/concepts, have goals, purposes the same way as Heavenly Father does, then we all are ONE. They are one in unity of mind, concepts, not physically. This way there are no divisions; we all have to come to the same concepts about God & Jesus Christ.

If a president has two counselors, the same are part of the presidency, and can also be called presidents.

Jesus Christ, when He offered the intercessory prayer, He stated it so clearly:

John 17

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

If we are one, in unity, with His teachings, we are one with Them. Jesus Christ became one with the Father because "He didn't come to do His own will, but the Father's, and He always did those things that pleased the Father, not Him."

If we learn to do the same, we will be one with Them, but NOT physically!

We must come to have the same mind, the mind of God, see things as He sees, .... and then we can become and be one with Him just like Jesus Christ became one with the Father in purpose.

2 Cor. 13: 11

11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

[hordak]

While I get the point, both things are true about S. Florida (lived there for 4 years). However, we can't all be right about the nature of God. I want to understand God as He really is.

I agree completely.We can't all be right.I just think if we are wrong on ether side of the fence so to speak(Protestant or LDS) there are differences that are more important and crucial.IMO

(This thread seems to be a long way from the "Bridging the Evangelist LDS gap" i saw a few weeks ago)

[rameumptom]

The reality is, until God fully reveals himself to the entire earth, there will be disagreements as to what God is: Trinity, Godhead, Brahma, Allah, et al.

What we can each do is strive to seek and embrace God as best we can. If we believe we are saved by Christ's grace, but then begin annotating exceptions or place requirements on top of that grace, are we not denying His grace? Or, as the Calvinists, extremely limiting the atonement's power, so that few will be saved?

If God is as loving as we all proclaim him to be, then how can he send to hell those who are honestly trying to find him? Either God uses a different set of ethics than what he imposes upon us, or God is a sadist, if such is the case. I do not, nor cannot, believe as did St Augustine that unbaptized babes that die will burn in hell. Such a God is not the God of the New Testament nor Book of Mormon. Jesus stated that little children should come unto him, "for of such is the kingdom of heaven." That being the case, why should I deny Christ's teachings in order to allow Augustine to have his philosophical belief that all men deserve hell? Christ saves us because through him we all deserve heaven (or a level of it), unless we choose to absolutely rebel against him and the Holy Ghost.

LDS teachings and early Christian writings all support the concept of multiple heavens. Christ taught he was preparing many mansions in his Father's kingdom, and Paul knew a man that went to the third heaven. If these teachings are true (and if not, then the Bible is false), then we should believe that there is room enough for all Christians in heaven, including Mormons.

My concern is someone not just seeking to share the truths they've found with others, to offer them a chance to hear and accept more (as I hope LDS are doing), but some take the Judge's seat from Christ and condemn others to hell, even before Christ has chosen his sheep from the goats!

I appreciate prison chaplain's concern for all that they are not only seeking, but finding the true God. But, with him, I am realistic enough to know that none of us can know just how closely any individual is walking with God. Only God knows that. All any of us can do is offer our learnings in hopes that someone may glean greater truth from it; and in sharing, perhaps I can also learn something greater.

Edited June 24, 2008 by rameumptom

[PapilioMemnon]

Just would like to say that this (Talk below) is the reason I learned this doctrine is essential to our understanding of God, and it is an essential doctrine; it is essential to those who embrace the LDS faith, and those who desire to know what we believe.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Apostasy and Restoration

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has many beliefs in common with other Christian churches. But we have differences, and those differences explain why we send missionaries to other Christians, why we build temples in addition to churches, and why our beliefs bring us such happiness and strength to deal with the challenges of life and death. I wish to speak about some of the important additions our doctrines make to the Christian faith. ...

We would be wiser if we could restore the knowledge of some important things that have been distorted, ignored, or forgotten. This also applies to religious knowledge. It explains the need for the gospel restoration we proclaim.

When Joseph Smith was asked to explain the major tenets of our faith, he wrote what we now call the Articles of Faith. The first article states, “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” The Prophet later declared that “the simple and first principles of the gospel” include knowing “for a certainty the character of God” (“Conference Minutes,” Times and Seasons, 15 Aug. 1844, p. 614). We must begin with the truth about God and our relationship to him. Everything else follows from that.

In common with the rest of Christianity, we believe in a Godhead of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. However, we testify that these three members of the Godhead are three separate and distinct beings. We also testify that God the Father is not just a spirit but is a glorified person with a tangible body, as is his resurrected Son, Jesus Christ.

Then came the First Vision. An unschooled boy, seeking knowledge from the ultimate source, saw two personages of indescribable brightness and glory and heard one of them say, while pointing to the other, “This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!” (JS—H 1:17.) The divine teaching in that vision began the restoration of the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. God the Son told the boy prophet that all the “creeds” of the churches of that day “were an abomination in his sight” (JS—H 1:19). We affirm that this divine declaration was a condemnation of the creeds, not of the faithful seekers who believed in them. Joseph Smith’s first vision showed that the prevailing concepts of the nature of God and the Godhead were untrue and could not lead their adherents to the destiny God desired for them.

After a subsequent outpouring of modern scripture and revelation, this modern prophet declared, “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit” (D&C 130:22).

This belief [I]does not mean that we claim sufficient spiritual maturity to comprehend God. Nor do we equate our imperfect mortal bodies to his immortal, glorified being. But we can comprehend the fundamentals he has revealed about himself and the other members of the Godhead. And that knowledge is essential to our understanding of the purpose of mortal life and of our eternal destiny as resurrected beings after mortal life.

Dallin H. Oaks, “Apostasy and Restoration,” Ensign, May 1995, 84