I'm having some issues with Joseph Smith


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Ok, so I have a testimony that Joseph Smith was a prophet. I thought he had five or six wives, which I felt I could accept. But when I just recently learned that he actually had more than thirty wives, some of them already married to other men and some as young as 14, well......it has raised some doubt and questioning. First of all, I feel upset that I didn't know this before. I'm upset that I had to learn about this from a mormon basher. I feel like I have been kept in the dark, and I can understand now why some people end up leaving the church. I am now beginning to wonder what else I don't know! Everyone talks about milk before meat but.....now that we're in the age of the internet there is meat everywhere in full force. I just really wish there was a way for people to learn the truth uncensored, without having to wade through a bunch of anti sentiment. I was born and raised in the church, have been to the temple, read all the scriptures, etc.....But this part of Joseph's life really bothers me. I can accept that plural marriage was commanded of God. But Joseph's situation seems so extreme. I am just having trouble with this. I feel very strongly about the church and feel a need to be able to defend it and to defend Joseph Smith. I can't help but wonder if he could have abused God's command to have plural wives. Could this be possible? I mean, obviously he was just a human and has made mistakes.....please don't take this as any kind of slander. I am really just trying to get my bearings here and hope that people in this forum can share with me their own defense of Joseph (in addition to any links you may provide)

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Yes, Joeseph Smith had more than one wife. Did he have thirty wives that were already married to other men, no. Did he marry woman who weren't old enough to be woman, no. You have to believe that in those days polygamy wasn't illegal, and it was normal for a man to have more than one wife, but woman couldn't have more than one husband. Joseph was a righteous to his wives and they weren't fourteen years old, they weren't married to other men, and I'm sure he didn't have thirty.

If Joseph Smith had broken the rules that Heavenly Father set, he wouldn't have recieved those wonderful revelations that are the outline of our church. This mormon basher doesn't want you to walk with the light. And the Deciever's fallen angels feel that your confused and disheartened heart and they'll keep whispering in your ears to believe in these things.

There are many people who want to decieve us from our teachings. They want us to let go of the Iron Rod because they already have. I must caution you to stay off those anti-mormon websites, and take comfort in our Heavenly Father, that he'll make these things right in the end. For in the end all things shall be revealed to us.

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To have 5 or 6 wives would be nothing new to them back then, and that wouldn't be a lot. Each of those wives would be cared tentively by the husband. But to exceed past that number is like having servents who are married to you. I agree that men should not have more than one wife, but to have thirty and over is like servents in a home, and woman should not be treated as such.

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I have known about many accusations against Joseph Smith - nothing has persuaded me to believe he was not a prophet. To me, there is a big difference between 5 or 6 wives, and over 30. I always viewed the purpose of plural marriage as being to establish the church by having more children, so the wives could support eachother when their husbands were on missions, basically, it was necessary to get the church firmly established - at least thats how I've always seen it. But when the number starts getting into the 30's I can't help but wonder if he was just really tempted by sex. We know he drank and was by no means perfect. We also know that God does not need a perfect man to work his miracles. And lets talk about the facts - was he or wasn't he married to women who were already married and as young as fourteen? I'm not saying that was the case with all his wives, but what about Fanny Alger? In those days it definitely wasn't typical for a man to have more than one wife. In fact, the majority of the church did not practice plural marriage. I am worried about people like Anas13 who don't know the facts and then try to defend the church. I know this isn't the most pleasant subject for people. But is it better for members to not know the truth when they are put up against people who do and seek to discredit the church? I am waiting to hear some good defending of the prophet - because we as members need to be better at it.

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I second Jenamarie's advice to read "Rough Stone Rolling" if you have a problem with this. It is written by a devout member, Richard L. Bushman, who is also a nationally recognized and highly respected historian from Columbia University. He writes about the life of Joseph Smith in as unbiased a way as a Mormon can. It is a great book and is probably a better resource than anti-Mormons trying to discredit The prophet Joseph.

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I would really like to hear what you would say if someone asked you about it. I feel that sometimes it gets a little old when we refer people to read this or that without being able to defend things in our own words. We need to be better defenders. In honor of Joseph, who died on this day, I would like to hear some people defend him in their own words.

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Hello Ocean,

That's very good that you want to know and ask questions about issues that happened in the history of the Restored Church.

There were some occasions the Lord consented some men to have more than one wife as we have seen in the Old Testament. If you think Joseph might have abused the Lord's consent... I wonder what you think of Solomon! :eek::lol:

Why people always talks about Bro. Joseph, but somehow manage to deal with Abraham's, David's, and Solomon's??? :confused:

Anyways, I am a woman, and have some feelings regarding this particular law, but as I have pondered it much,... the Lord has been teaching me line upon line about it, as I am meek and humble before Him, as I tell Him that I would and will do His will no matter what that is! (This subject wasn't an easy one for me to learn about it, and accept it as a commandment of the Lord when He consents).

I don't feel that Joseph, our Brother Joseph abused Heavenly Father's law... I have the best feelings towards Bro. Joseph, Brigham Young, Abraham, David (Just very sorry for his bad choice and Solomon's :(). Bro. Joseph was a man of God, a true prophet!!! He was not malicious or took advantage of the circumstances!!! I regard him with all respect for all that he committed himself to do, and to go through for my Heavenly Father and my Savior, to establish Their, not his, Church in the midst of great persecution and threats... who suffered much to bring to pass all that we have... I love Bro. Joseph!!! He was not malicious! Malicious are the ones trying to twist & distort things to disrupt peace and truth!

It's interesting how people mention only the number of women or the young woman he might have taken as spouse, but how about the elderly ones? How many of them were elderly and widows, and couldn't take care of themselves? Were they to perish? If they could have benefited of having a righteous husband that could've possibly opened up the way and blessed them with the opportunity to be sealed and receive the blessings of exaltation, do you thing that's a bad thing?

How many men do you know that is a righteous priesthood holder and are married and sealed to a wife? Now, how many do you know who hold the priesthood, but really slack and for one reason or another cannot enter the temple, and some even don't really care?

Now, how many women do you know are waiting for an opportunity to be find one man out there that is righteous and want to be sealed in the temple?

In my ward, there's way more women than men available... and some of them I know (Men), even though they are in their late 30s, early 40s... they are picking and choosing.... are playing around, are takng their time, not really interested, don't want responsibility, etc... I could go on and on and on...

Waht do you think Heavenly Father thinks when He sees this going on with the men in His church who hold or don't want to hold the priesthood, and make commitments? And many, plenty, many of His daughters have not even been able to be sealed in the Temple yet and receive the blessings of the covenants & ordinances we do there; others that are divorced and are waiting for a good chance to make eternal covenants and be sealed to an eternal companion who actually cares and wants to do that, and wants to serve God (I personally know this one pretty well :D)

We do not know all the circumstances surrounding that subject, why it was permitted, and how many was allowed, if there's a certain number established... We just don't really know all things that led to it! (At least I don't know for sure all those things)

Anas13 offered really good advice: "...There are many people who want to decieve us from our teachings. They want us to let go of the Iron Rod because they already have. I must caution you to stay off those anti-mormon websites, and take comfort in our Heavenly Father, that he'll make these things right in the end. For in the end all things shall be revealed to us. "

Knowing if this was right or not, how many, etc. is NOT the main thing we need to focus on because we don't have the whole story, and our salvation DOES NOT depend upon this knowledge.

If I can offer you anything, I'd say for you to think about it as you continue to read other things, as you continue in prayer, asking for understanding. Approach Heavenly Father as you'd a very close friend and pour our those thoughts and feelings to Him... Allow time to receive the answers as you continue doings what you're supposed to do, and reading His words! Yes... hold tight to the iron rod right now!

If you have any church history book, read on the topic; search the topical guide, dictionary of the Bible. Read about Abraham, David, Solomon... let it rest upon your mind, and in time... in time you'll come to understand little by little... Just keeping holding to the iron rod!!!

As you think upon these things, research Celestial Marriage and the talks given by our leaders, and try to understand the conditions and why Heavenly Father would ever give and allow this commandment.

Polygamy, commanded by the Lord, is not sin; it does not matter the number of women either as my understanding (David was allowed and given many, as so was Solomon until he took another route that is not related to the topic); we don't know why some would take so many, and some more, or less... Maybe some were more willing to do than others? Remember, it's a LOT of responsibility to do that! It's not only pleasure!... It's not a sin if the Lord allows and I'm sure the Lord does not allow only for pure physical satisfaction!

I first learned about it before I was baptized; I don't know (can't recall) how the subject arised, but it did, I questioned, and listened to their comments (The sister who introduced me to the Gospel, and the Sisters who taught me). I had already knowledge of such commandment in the Old Testament. I let it rest upon my mind, and let it be... as I focused on the doctrine I KNEW was not wrong, and to drop all of the truth and all the greatness I found because of this issue (And the MMM, and others...)... I wasn't going to let it happen!!! I didn't and don't dwell in things that are not essential. Once I came to understand this principle, I let it be... One day I will understand, and I KNOW Heavenly Father will reveal all things... and I will come to know all things if I just hang in there until it's done!!!

As the years went by and as I have researched and read about it in many different ways (Church books, etc...) I have come to learn and understand more and more about it!

DO NOT let go of all things that you know it's true because of a little thing that will have no impact on your salvation/exaltation; however, letting go of all the other essential things will have a tremendous impact in your life now and in the eternities!!!

I don't know if you know the analogy of the pebble, but if you do, remember it... and hold on tight!!!

Yesterday, as I was driving, I heard a talk from Elder Maxwell whom I love as well, and the topic was "Taking Up the Cross,' and he said at some point:

"WEAK MEN MAKE GREAT DOMINOES." In simple words he said much as he was well known for his ability to do that!!! Think about that!

Have a good evening!

Edited by PapilioMemnon
Typos, added some more thoughts
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I have known about many accusations against Joseph Smith - nothing has persuaded me to believe he was not a prophet. To me, there is a big difference between 5 or 6 wives, and over 30. I always viewed the purpose of plural marriage as being to establish the church by having more children, so the wives could support eachother when their husbands were on missions, basically, it was necessary to get the church firmly established - at least thats how I've always seen it. But when the number starts getting into the 30's I can't help but wonder if he was just really tempted by sex. We know he drank and was by no means perfect. We also know that God does not need a perfect man to work his miracles. And lets talk about the facts - was he or wasn't he married to women who were already married and as young as fourteen? I'm not saying that was the case with all his wives, but what about Fanny Alger? In those days it definitely wasn't typical for a man to have more than one wife. In fact, the majority of the church did not practice plural marriage. I am worried about people like Anas13 who don't know the facts and then try to defend the church. I know this isn't the most pleasant subject for people. But is it better for members to not know the truth when they are put up against people who do and seek to discredit the church? I am waiting to hear some good defending of the prophet - because we as members need to be better at it.

I don't agree......he was a man not a perfect person....I don;t think he needs defended...it all comes down to if he was a prophet and did translate the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God.
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Palerider, I get what you're saying but have to disagree with the part about how he doesn't need defending. He does - the church does - and we as members need to be better at it. There are so many bashers out there, and if we don't defend what we hold to be sacred and true then we are not doing all we should be to build up the kingdom and to help those who are being deceived.

Anas13, thank you for your humility - it is truly beautiful and I hope I didn't say anything to offend you.

Papilio, thank you for your helpful comments

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Yes, it is true. Joseph Smith was sealed to many women, and some were already legally and lawfully married to others. It's just like many things that were restored through Joseph Smith; he did not always fully understand them at first.

The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, is an example of that. It wasn't until later that they assumed their proper place as the second highest governing body in the Church after First Presidency. God teaches us line upon line, and precept upon precept.

That said, there is no credible evidence that Joseph Smith consummated any of the marriages except for his marriage with Emma, and it is a matter of historical fact that he certainly had no children with anyone else. That's not to say that he didn't, and I know allegations have been made, and some are a part of Church History, but it is left very unclear.

It appears that at first these sealings were simply a way to bind families and others together, and that Joseph held them to be in force in the eternities only. Along with plural marriage, celestial marriage was revealed at the same time (See D&C 132). So, there was a lot of new information and a lot of learning going on. Joseph denied practicing polygamy publicly during this time, and I believe he was telling the truth. If he was not consummating the marriages, and only believed them to be in force in the eternities, then it's not really polygamy as his accusers understood it.

As it turns out, the true understanding of this law was achieved, and plural marriage and temple sealings began to be practiced the way they were intended. This meant the following:

And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else. (D&C 132:61)

So, to sum things up. It appears that plural marriage and sealings were not completely understood by Joseph when he first received the revelations, and it is unclear whether he actually consummated any other marriage besides the one with Emma. Further, the evidence suggests more that he did not, than he did.

I know I didn't provide a lot of stuff to back any of this up. So much has been written about this topic that it all wouldn't fit on here. But this represents the is the understanding I have come to.

Regardless, I know by the power of the Holy Ghost that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and a righteous man. I do not understand all things, but I am confident that in the end, when we know these things, we will agree that he acted righteously.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited by Vanhin
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Ocean,

Just wondering....

Do you have the same concerns about Brigham Young? Considering his polygamous relationships are very well known.

And just one thought about the issue of defending.....

Defending in some cases means proving. Proving leads to arguing. Arguing leads to contention. And contention doesn't get anybody anywhere! I think the best way to defend is to have a solid testimony. Then we can answer questions and discuss our beliefs with others thru invitation and testimony. People can take it or leave it. The Spirit is what proves, convinces, lays down doubts, and calms fears. A person with less technical knowledge of the church and its detailed history can bear just as an effective testimony as a BYU/FARMS professional.

On my mission, I talked to a new convert. She spoke of the two Elders who taught her. One knew all the right answers....could discourse intellectually for hours very convincingly. But it was the quieter one from whom she felt the Spirit of God. His simple testimony made all the difference in the development of her testimony.

The real answer you need won't come from more historical documentation or more intelligent conversation from us. God knew and knows the heart of Joseph Smith. He knows precisely what happened back then in the quietness of every moment of Joseph's life. Take your question to Him. He will tell you the truth of Joseph's character.

Edited by Misshalfway
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This is my take on the matter:

As far as I can deduct from personal study he probably did have 30+ wives and even if one was 14 years of age, that was not an uncommon age to be married at the time.

It all boils down to his intentions. Did he do it because he was sex driven? Or, was it because he was following the commandments of God and had a serious concern for the welfare of these women? How can anyone honestly speak for the prophet and claim he meant to do one thing when it could have been another?

I believe he was acting in the interests of the Lord.

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I struggled with this for a little while myself. I asked my Bishop about it and he told me that Joseph married these women so he could care for them. Some the women were widows and needed support so Joseph took them under his care. Most of them did not live with him. After my Bishop told me this I did not worry about it anymore. He was just being a great Prophet and Priesthood holder.

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Let your testimony continue to be your foundation from which to build as you learn line upon line and precept upon precept the doctrine of Christ's church. Many people struggled with Christ being the Son of the living God when He walked among them and performed mighty miracles before their very eyes.

Having multiples wives is a principle that God instituted from the beginning. There were prophets in the Old Testament who were commanded by God to marry more than one wife. As you begin to understand the purposes through scripture study (Old Testament and Doctrine and Covenants), your appreciation and understanding for the prophets, especially for Joseph Smith will deepen.

There is no eternal principle found in our church that wasn't established anciently, from plural marriage to temple ordinances and even basic gospel principles. I don't have any greater answers than what has already been offered, but careful study and research in the scriptures and online sources are wonderful tools to use in furthering your studies. :)

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Ok, so I have a testimony that Joseph Smith was a prophet. I thought he had five or six wives, which I felt I could accept. But when I just recently learned that he actually had more than thirty wives, some of them already married to other men and some as young as 14, well......it has raised some doubt and questioning. First of all, I feel upset that I didn't know this before. I'm upset that I had to learn about this from a mormon basher. I feel like I have been kept in the dark, and I can understand now why some people end up leaving the church. I am now beginning to wonder what else I don't know! Everyone talks about milk before meat but.....now that we're in the age of the internet there is meat everywhere in full force. I just really wish there was a way for people to learn the truth uncensored, without having to wade through a bunch of anti sentiment. I was born and raised in the church, have been to the temple, read all the scriptures, etc.....But this part of Joseph's life really bothers me. I can accept that plural marriage was commanded of God. But Joseph's situation seems so extreme. I am just having trouble with this. I feel very strongly about the church and feel a need to be able to defend it and to defend Joseph Smith. I can't help but wonder if he could have abused God's command to have plural wives. Could this be possible? I mean, obviously he was just a human and has made mistakes.....please don't take this as any kind of slander. I am really just trying to get my bearings here and hope that people in this forum can share with me their own defense of Joseph (in addition to any links you may provide)

With the polyandry FAIR Wiki in the recent changes section has a chapter from a book on it. The book i hope will be released soon, but i have not heard news that it will go to print yet. But it is nice the authors are allowing it to be put online to read. In the LDS Discussion section i give opinion on the polyandry. I see Joseph Smith as only marrying the 11 for eternity, but was not to live with them, or have children. With eternal marriage children of other men were his as a step-dad. And childbearing does not end at death so Joseph Smith could beget such children in the afterlife.

D.&C.132 requires the woman's vow to her husband as ending before any co-habitation with Joseph Smith took place. The women went back after the ceremonies to live with the husbands. A close reading of that section reveals once the woman was appointed to be Joseph's in mortality she could not be with the first husband. Cheating on Joseph Smith with another man was taught by Joseph Smith to be adultury. More likely to me they threw time and for eternity language into the ceremonies with the understanding no co-habitation with Joseph Smith could take place as that would be adultury.

The list of 33 wives comes from Todd Comptons in Sacred Lonliness. With Helen Mar Kimball he concluded she was never involved with Joseph smith. That likely following later practice in Utah any involvement would have happened later. FAIR Wiki on its main page has an article on Joseph smiths marriages to young women. LDS FAIR Apologetics Homepage The link to the Wiki is found on the FAIR main page.

Remember in the 19th century age of consent was 10-13 depending on the state. And the FAIR article showed an 1850 census where it showed i think 41.7% of he female population marrying as teenagers. The husbands tended if my memory is right tended to be ten years older than the teenage brides. Marrying young was not statutory rape as no such laws existed but for those younger than the age of consent.

---------------

I am not LDS, but a member of the Community of Christ (formerly the longer named Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Joseph Smith 3rd prophet/president of my church suggested a possible way of viewing Joseph Smiths plural marriages. I use it to explain marriages i think Todd Compton is deluded into thinking he proved via guesses Joseph Smith was involved with certain women. His suggestion would not work in all the 33 listed wives as some clear claims of sexuality by the women themselves exist. In those examples i am understanding of him accepting their testimony.

He suggested "The statement made in the afidavit of this Melissa Lott willis, published by Joseph F. Smith, to the effect that she had been married to Joseph Smith, was not true, provided the word married be construed as conveying the right of living together as man and wife, a relation she had unequivocally denied in my presence. I was convinced that wherever the word married or sealed occured in such testimonies regarding my father it meant nothing more than possibly those women had gone through some ceremony or covenant which they intended as an arrangement for association in the world to come. and could by no means have any reference whatever to marital rights in the flesh." (The Memoirs of President Joseph Smith (1832-1914) Edited by his daughter Mary Audentia Smith Anderson, pg.246)

Edited by Dale
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Ocean, my initial problems with the church did not begin with Joseph Smith, they began with the temple. It was only when I started to research the history of the temple that I came accross all the other problems with the church, including Joseph Smith.

It is probablky very difficul to gain an unbiased answer-on here members generally wont accept Jospeh was anything other than a wonderful prophet, and any doubts you may have can be solved by prayer. If you pursue it, they are likely to get angry and start accusing you of being anti or causing trouble. Ive seen it many toimes on here *sigh*

However, other non LDS sources are also likely tpo bend the truth and make things up to make the church look worse. So it is a difficult situation. Im sure you'll agre however, praying is really not going to give you the answer you need. What some people on here have essentially said is just ignore it, as long as you have a testimony thats all that matters. I really dont agree. If we believe in a church, do we not have the right to know its history?? I dont think anyone on the planet would disagree apart from the members themselves, desperate to uphold the churches reputation.

I too want to read rough stone rolling although Id have to order it online probably. All I can say to you is from my experience, gaining answers is a difficult and long process and Im still confused now. I frequwnt a really good site similar to this for people who have doubts and questions about the church but dont necessarilly intend to leave. Ive got some great answers there I think it might be better than here. They are always forthcoming with information and facts on topics such as this too. If you're interested, pm me and ill tell u the link. :)

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Ocean, whatever you do, do not allow someone to convince you that you cannot receive answers to your questions through prayer, as Aphrodite has suggested. That is absolutely the wrong answer.

There really is a God, and he is our Father, and he will answer your hearfelt and sincere prayers. The answers come in different ways, so don't cease to seek for them through your own efforts while you pray. When the right answers come, they will be confirmed to you by the power of the Holy Ghost; just as the scriptures teach. That is the way real answers to these questions are obtained.

And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.

But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul. (2 Ne. 32:7-9)

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Edited by Vanhin
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I am sure you have heard the terms "celestial marriage" and "eternal marriage", otherwise known as "sealings". Here is a paper from the FARILDS website that might shed some light:

http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/polyandry.pdf

Essemtially, the women that were married to other men, were only "sealed" to Joseph as wives for eternity, not for time on this earth. While they were still on this earth, they were married to their husbands.

The concept of pluaral marriage was still new at that time and I would venture a guess that they were still fine tuning their understanding about it. Just because Joseph was given the revelation, did not mean he knew everything about it right then.

When Orville and Wilbur Wright flew for the first time, they were not flying aces. They had a good understanding of the basics of flight, but did not know everything about it. The skills of pilots today, by far, surpass the skills that the Wright brothers had.

The Lord gives us knowledge "line upon line" etc...He doesn't do a brain dump. He gives a concept, and then allows us to work with it, experience it, train with it, excersise it, to get a good feel of how it should be applied.

I don't know how all this lines up with the official church stance on this, or if there is even an official church stance on it, but this is how I see it.

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