I'm having some issues with Joseph Smith

[Misshalfway]

Im sure you'll agre however, praying is really not going to give you the answer you need. What some people on here have essentially said is just ignore it, as long as you have a testimony thats all that matters.

As long as you have a testimony that all that matters........... Hm.

Having a testimony IS the thing that matters! I am not sure the person who said this really understands the concept of a testimony. This makes it sound like having a testimony is just walking around with a blindfold on and smiling obliviously saying, "no no no! Don't tell me the real truth. I am too busy feeling warm and fuzzy." :::shaking head::: This isn't even remotely what a testimony is or was or ever will be.

A testimony is pure, absolute, sure knowledge given from God Himself! It incorporates logic, and reason, and feeling and emotion. It can be given thru dreams or voice or impression or thought. There is no research or earthly opinion of evidence that can trump revelation. To say that one cannot pray is a denial of the power of the very creator of you and I. And to suggest that someone shouldn't pray is ignorance to the possibilities of conversing with deity.

Not one person on this thread has ever suggested that this question is not valid and that it should be ignored! Let me make myself very clear on that. We all have questions. We wouldn't be human or children of God if we didn't!! Asking questions is what opens the door to answers! We encourage it! This very church started by the simpleness of one question! Who wouldn't question Joseph Smith? His story seems fantastic and very well could be false! It is absolutely essential to any testimony for the question to be asked!!!

The problem is not inside the question. The problem is when we as humans think we know the answers OR that we can obtain a better answer than from God. When someone suggests that Joseph or any other leader is sinful or devious or lying or evil. They very well could be right, just as easily as they could be wrong. You could slander me in the very same way. Take anyones weaknesses and history and start spinning and it wouldn't take you long to discredit all of us!!! But who is right and who is wrong? We are finite beings. We can only know so much about any subject by ourselves. Moses learned that man was nothing. Something he had not supposed. Perhaps a reminder of such a lesson could apply here. God is the only one who can give the satisfactory answer.

Having said that.....ONE of God's prereq's for giving such spiritual answers is study. He expects us to do our homework. But.....He doesn't just leave us there wallowing in the confusion of incomplete documentation and controversial opinion and spinning. He breaks all the ties. He brings the light! The truth on any matter, and can lay any question to rest!

So, OP, ask away! Study. Look at the documentation of Joseph's life. How many wives did he really have? What was the nature of those relationships and the premise with which they entered into such unions? And then take the matter and any heart felt confusion to God.

Edited June 27, 2008 by Misshalfway

[Guest Seraphim]

Ocean, my initial problems with the church did not begin with Joseph Smith, they began with the temple. It was only when I started to research the history of the temple that I came accross all the other problems with the church, including Joseph Smith.

It is probablky very difficul to gain an unbiased answer-on here members generally wont accept Jospeh was anything other than a wonderful prophet, and any doubts you may have can be solved by prayer. If you pursue it, they are likely to get angry and start accusing you of being anti or causing trouble. Ive seen it many toimes on here *sigh*

However, other non LDS sources are also likely tpo bend the truth and make things up to make the church look worse. So it is a difficult situation. Im sure you'll agre however, praying is really not going to give you the answer you need. What some people on here have essentially said is just ignore it, as long as you have a testimony thats all that matters. I really dont agree. If we believe in a church, do we not have the right to know its history?? I dont think anyone on the planet would disagree apart from the members themselves, desperate to uphold the churches reputation.

I too want to read rough stone rolling although Id have to order it online probably. All I can say to you is from my experience, gaining answers is a difficult and long process and Im still confused now. I frequwnt a really good site similar to this for people who have doubts and questions about the church but dont necessarilly intend to leave. Ive got some great answers there I think it might be better than here. They are always forthcoming with information and facts on topics such as this too. If you're interested, pm me and ill tell u the link. :)

Members of the church believe in the power of prayer and I find it inappropriate to use this board to encourage those with doubts not to pray when seeking answers. It seems your interest is in reinforcing those doubts.

Seraphim

[PapilioMemnon]

Thanks Vanhin for your prompt post regarding prayer!!!

Prayer is an essential tool we need to communicate with the Lord. There's no one here hushing your questions and telling not to find the answers; The opposite is true: we have cited several places, reading materials. When we say to you to pray, we are not hushing questions, rather, we are saying to you to go to the source of all wisdom and truth, to go to the Lord Himself.

If you have ever prayed and received an answer, even an answer to your thoughts... you KNOW the Lord does answers our prayers, and you know how important prayer is!

We have counseled you to pray because most of us know how important this too is; we have said to you to continue doing the things you need to (Especially to qualify to receive answers); we have said that you need to search the scriptures, the church books, and even reading the book written about Joseph Smith "Rough Stone Rolling" (I own that book as well). There are plenty of evidences no one is trying to divert your questions!

Yes, i said once, and will say as many times as needed: ANY PROBLEM CAN BE SOLVED THROUGH HUMBLE/MEEK PRAYER, ANYTHING CAN BE UNDERSTOOD!

As we approach Heavenly Father in meekness & humbleness and continue to act upon those things that we know to do: Read the scriptures, pray for understanding (and much more), keep our covenants,... and a very important thing: WAIT UPON HIM!

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself told us to "Pray always!" Why would He counsel us to do something if He knew it's ineffective and something trivial??? Did He pray? When did He pray? For what things did He pray? What happened the many times He prayed, and people prayed in the scriptures??? Angels have come, spoken,... and then, the most glorious thing happened in our dispensation: In answer to a meek/humble prayer, Heavenly Fahter Himself, and the Lord Jesus Christ answered in person a prayer!!!

Prayers are heard and answered! I'm sorry for anyone who does not know that, who has not yet found out the power of a humble prayer!!! And I'm more sorry they actually counsel other not to pray to receive answers to their questions!!!

Here is an article about prayer; please read carefully Elder Eyring's words; he's an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ and testifies of the power of prayer! (I posted parts of the talk I found most relevant)

(Emphasis added)

Prayer - Elder Henry B. Eyring Prayer

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles October 2001

"With . . . faith, we will be able to pray for what we want and appreciate whatever we get. Only with that faith will we pray with the diligence God requires."

The world seems to be in commotion. There are wars and rumors of wars. The economies of whole continents are faltering. Crops are failing from lack of rain in places all over the earth. And the people in peril have flooded heaven with prayers. In public and in private, they are petitioning God for help, for comfort, and for direction.

You have probably noticed, as I have in recent days, that prayers have not only become more numerous but more heartfelt. I often am seated on the stand in a meeting near the person who has been asked to pray. I have listened recently with wonder. The words spoken are clearly inspired by God, both eloquent and wise. And the tone is that of a loving child seeking help, not as we might from an earthly parent but from an all-powerful Heavenly Father who knows our needs before we ask.

Such a turning to fervent prayer when the world seems out of joint is as old as mankind. In times of tragedy and danger, people turn to God in prayer. Even the ancient King David would recognize what is happening. You remember his words from the book of Psalms:

"The Lord also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble.

"And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, Lord, hast not forsaken them that seek thee."1

The great increase in heartfelt prayer, and the public acceptance of it, has been remarkable to me and to others. More than once in recent days, someone has said to me with great intensity and with a sound of worry in the voice, "I hope that the change lasts."

That worry is justified. Our own personal experience and God's record of His dealing with His children teaches us that. Dependence on God can fade quickly when prayers are answered. And when the trouble lessens, so do the prayers. The Book of Mormon repeats that sad story over and over again.

From the book of Helaman, "O, how could you have forgotten your God in the very day that he has delivered you?"2 And later from the same book, after God had answered prayers with gracious kindness, the awful pattern is described again:

"And thus we can behold how false, and also the unsteadiness of the hearts of the children of men; yea, we can see that the Lord in his great infinite goodness doth bless and prosper those who put their trust in him.

"Yea, and we may see at the very time when he doth prosper his people, yea, in the increase of their fields, their flocks and their herds, and in gold, and in silver, and in all manner of precious things of every kind and art; sparing their lives, and delivering them out of the hands of their enemies; softening the hearts of their enemies that they should not declare wars against them; yea, and in fine, doing all things for the welfare and happiness of his people; yea, then is the time that they do harden their hearts, and do forget the Lord their God, and do trample under their feet the Holy One—yea, and this because of their ease, and their exceedingly great prosperity.

"And thus we see that except the Lord doth chasten his people with many afflictions, yea, except he doth visit them with death and with terror, and with famine and with all manner of pestilence, they will not remember him."3

And now, from the next words of that same scripture, we learn why it is we forget so easily the source of our blessings and cease to feel our need to pray with faith:

"O how foolish, and how vain, and how evil, and devilish, and how quick to do iniquity, and how slow to do good, are the children of men; yea, how quick to hearken unto the words of the evil one, and to set their hearts upon the vain things of the world!

"Yea, how quick to be lifted up in pride; yea, how quick to boast, and do all manner of that which is iniquity; and how slow are they to remember the Lord their God, and to give ear unto his counsels, yea, how slow to walk in wisdom's paths!

"Behold, they do not desire that the Lord their God, who hath created them, should rule and reign over them; notwithstanding his great goodness and his mercy towards them, they do set at naught his counsels, and they will not that he should be their guide."4

From those three short verses of scripture, we see three causes for the sad drift away from humble prayer. First, while God implores us to pray, the enemy of our souls belittles and then derides it. The warning from 2 Nephi is true: "And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray."5

Second, God is forgotten out of vanity. A little prosperity and peace, or even a turn slightly for the better, can bring us feelings of self-sufficiency. We can feel quickly that we are in control of our lives, that the change for the better is our own doing, not that of a God who communicates to us through the still, small voice of the Spirit. Pride creates a noise within us which makes the quiet voice of the Spirit hard to hear. And soon, in our vanity, we no longer even listen for it. We can come quickly to think we don't need it.

The third cause is rooted deeply within us. We are spirit children of a loving Heavenly Father who placed us in mortality to see if we would choose—freely choose—to keep His commandments and come unto His beloved Son. They do not compel us. They cannot, for that would interfere with the plan of happiness. And so there is in us a God-given desire to be responsible for our own choices.

That desire to make our own choices is part of the upward pull toward eternal life. But it can, if we see life only through our mortal eyes, make dependence on God difficult or even impossible when we feel such a powerful desire to be independent. This true doctrine can sound hard:

"For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father."6

Those who submit like a child do it because they know that the Father wants only the happiness of His children and that only He knows the way. That is the testimony we must have to keep praying like a submissive child, in the good times as well as the times of trouble.

With that faith, we will be able to pray for what we want and appreciate whatever we get. Only with that faith will we pray with the diligence God requires. When God has commanded us to pray, He has used words like "pray unceasingly" and "pray always" and "mighty prayer."

Those commands do not require using many words. In fact, the Savior has told us that we need not multiply words when we pray. The diligence in prayer which God requires does not take flowery speech nor long hours of solitude. That is taught clearly in Alma in the Book of Mormon:

"Yea, and when you do not cry unto the Lord, let your hearts be full, drawn out in prayer unto him continually for your welfare, and also for the welfare of those who are around you."7

Our hearts can only be drawn out to God when they are filled with love for Him and trust in His goodness. Joseph Smith, even as a boy, gave us an example of how we can come to pray from a heart filled with the love of God and then pray unceasingly through a life filled with trials and blessings.

Joseph started for the grove to pray with faith that a loving God would answer his prayer and relieve his confusion. He gained that assurance reading the word of God and receiving a witness that it was true. He said that he read in James, "Let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."8 His faith to ask of God in prayer came after pondering a scripture which assured him of God's loving nature. He prayed, as we must, with faith in a loving God.

He prayed with the intent not only to listen but to obey. He did not ask only to know the truth. He was committed to act upon whatever God would communicate to him. His written account makes clear that he prayed with real intent, determined to comply with whatever answer he received. He wrote:

"Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible."9

The Father and His Beloved Son appeared to him in answer to his prayer. And he was told how to act, as he had desired. He obeyed like a child. He was told to join none of the churches. He did as he was told. And because of his faithfulness, in the days and months and years ahead his prayers were answered with a flood of light and truth. The fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the keys of the kingdom of God were restored to the earth. His humble dependence on God led to the Restoration of the gospel, with authority and sacred ordinances. Because of that Restoration, we have the chance to choose the most priceless independence to be free of the bondage of sin through the cleansing power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Joseph Smith's mission was unique, yet his humble prayer can be a helpful model for us. He began, as we must, with faith in a loving God who can and wants to communicate with us and help us. That faith was rooted in impressions which came to him as he pondered the words of God's servants in the scriptures. We can and must go often and carefully to the word of God. If we become casual in our study of the scriptures, we will become casual in our prayers.

We may not cease to pray, but our prayers will become more repetitive, more mechanical, lacking real intent. Our hearts cannot be drawn out to a God we do not know, and the scriptures and the words of living prophets help us know Him. As we know Him better, we love Him more.

We must also serve Him to love Him. Joseph Smith did that, finally surrendering life itself in His service. Joseph prayed with the intent to obey. That obedience always includes service to others. Service in God's work allows us to feel a part of what He feels and come to know Him.

"For how knoweth a man the master whom he has not served, and who is a stranger unto him, and is far from the thoughts and intents of his heart?"10 As our love for Him increases, so will our desire to approach the Father in prayer.

The words and the music of this conference will lead you to do what will strengthen you against the danger of a drift away from heartfelt prayer. From what you hear you will feel promptings to go to the scriptures. Follow the promptings. You will be reminded in this conference of service you committed to give when you entered the waters of baptism. Choose to obey.

If you ponder the scriptures and begin to do what you covenanted with God to do, I can promise you that you will feel more love for God and more of His love for you. And with that, your prayers will come from the heart, full of thanks and of pleading. You will feel a greater dependence on God. You will find the courage and the determination to act in His service, without fear and with peace in your heart. You will pray always. And you will not forget Him, no matter what the future brings.

I bear you my testimony that God the Father lives. He loves us. He hears our prayers, and He answers with what is best for us. As we come to know Him through His words and in His service, we will love Him more. I know that is true.

The fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the true Church of Jesus Christ have been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith. The keys of the priesthood are only in this Church. I know as surely as I live that President Gordon B. Hinckley holds and exercises the keys on the earth. Jesus Christ lives—I know that—and He leads His Church today. He will teach you through His servants in this conference.

In the sacred name of Jesus Christ, amen.

NOTES

1. Ps. 9:9–10.

2. Hel. 7:20.

3. Hel. 12:1–3.

4. Hel. 12:4–6.

5. 2 Ne. 32:8.

6. Mosiah 3:19.

7. Alma 34:27.

8. James 1:5; see JS—H 1:11.

9. JS—H 1:12.

10. Mosiah 5:13.

Edited July 11, 2008 by PapilioMemnon

[Dale]

There are some suggestions of children of Joseph Smith via plural wives. One of these suggested children is Josephine Fisher the daughter of Sylvia Sessions. Sylvia was one of the eleven on the polyandry side of the list of Joseph Smiths plural ives. Sylvia can't be cross-examined about what she said to her daughter about Joseph being her father on her death bed. But i am one who thinks that Sylvia may have told her daughter she was Joseph's child not biologically, but meant in a spiritual. But that the daughter not understanding the two ways Joseph Smith could have children by plural wives misunderstood the mother.

DNA studies have been slow on the case. I am hoping eventually DNA studies will be able to settle this old claim one way or another.

It is true none of the sealings wording said just for eternity. But if the women were taught it was improper to live with him, or have his children the time part doesn't mean much. If he was teaching the women on the polyandry list that cheating with their husbands with him was adultury then this polyandry wa a moral form of it. Then the understanding had to be to let death end the existing vows to the current husband before they could live with their husband Joseph in the eternity.

I have almost ever major book on Joseph Smith and polygamy i could buy. The one is use frequently is In Sacred Lonliness by Todd Compton. And i have formed an impression we don't know much if anything about the private details about what happened after the ceremonies. He tries to make up for it by speculation at times. He had no proof Zina Huntington the wife of Henry Jacobs and Joseph had an affair. His only argument was if sexuality was present in other of the marriages it was present in that one also. I take my Joseph Smith 3rd explanation myself to explain that marriage and reject his speculation.

[bytor2112]

Trying to glean insight and understanding of 19th century church history while peering through 21st century lenses is always going to provide us with a dim lit view of the past. My wife and I have talked a lot about these issues and always come back to the same conclusion. Namely, the Holy Spirit testifies of truth and Joseph was and is the Prophet of the Dispensation of the fullness of times. Brigham Young and many other leaders, Prophets and Apostles alike had multiple wives and had children by these multiple wives. I am absolutely fine with Joseph doing that as well, and even if I weren't, Heavenly Father apparently would have been. Sad really how the first thoughts most will have regarding this principle are to think about sexual gratification. We all know why they wanted more than one wife, don't we??? We are all taught and the scriptures are clear that the Lord delights in Chastity and virtue. I am certain that this church, the Lords church, could not have grew into this worldwide trumpeter of goodness and virtue if Joseph, and we have to include other Prophets as well, had fallen into some dark and immoral practices involving illicit affairs and multiple wives. One day,if we still number time by days or even number time at all, we will understand this principle and understand the Holy and Spiritual nature of it without injecting jealousies and thoughts of worldly passions. One day, when we are prepared........we will understand this and so much more.

Edited June 27, 2008 by bytor2112
spelling

[ocean]

I am so happy to come back and find all of these responses. Thank you so much everyone for taking the time to talk about this. The biggest message I am getting here is the importance of prayer - and reading the scriptures. That of course doesn't mean that I don't need to bother looking for the facts. I will continue to pursue the truth no matter what it is. I fully believe that trying to prove things that can't be proven and arguing will never get anyone anywhere. I also believe that defending the faith is important. My feeling is that the more any of us know, warts and all, the better off we will be - the church will be better for it. We don't need to be major intellectuals, but this day and age many of us who haven't yet had the experience will be faced with questions that are hard to answer, and I feel so strongly that members need to know how to respond. I believe that it's bad for the church when members are approached with a hard question relating to church history and are completely ignorant about it. Of course we can't all be expected to be history buffs, but when someone for example brings up the fact that Joseph had 30+ wives etc and the response from a mormon is that it's lies or just anti-mormon, well, quite frankly it reflects badly on the church. There are too many people who see us as ignorant and brainwashed because of episodes like this. I mean, that ignorant person was me, and is me - Here I am in my 30's, have studied a lot - and yet I am just now finding this out about Joseph Smith. Can I just say again that I'm upset? This is something all members should know! Obviously there are going to be people who are just antagonists, whose minds we wouldn't be able to persuade no matter what. But I also think that if mormons were better at knowing their own history - the good and the bad - we would be so much better at bringing people into the church. The real shame is when a person has to find out something true about the church through an anti-mormon website. We as members need to figure out how to combat this better. We are always instructed to not go looking around where there is anti-mormon material. What I find so unforntuate is that that's what I have had to do in order to get certain answers. What is wrong with this picture? You know what would be really great is if the church just put up a website - an official website - that dealt with difficult aspects of church history as well as common criticisms - using not only official church statements but also responses from members, such as responses given in this thread - some of which are very inspiring. We shouldn't be so 'afraid' of all the anti stuff. More importantly, we shouldn't be afraid of our own history. I think that fear and ignorance does more harm than good. If we faced it all head on, and publicly, it would be like a fortress. I know that all of satan's efforts will ultimately work against him. I have had that experience personally - It was through reading anti-mormon literature for the first time that I gained a desire to go to the temple and received my endowment. Has anyone ever wondered how the war in heaven was fought? Obviously it wasnt a physical war. We are having a similar type of war right now.

I have one comment for Palerider: I started this thread basically for help with an issue I'm struggling with. There are people that lose their testimonies over things like this - people who may be reading this thread. You say that you've been fighting this fight for years and that you don't need to be better at defending Joseph Smith - and yet so far all you have been able to say is that all it comes down to is that he was a prophet and translated the B of M by the power of God. For a lot of people that simply is not enough. Most people need to hear more than that in order to be touched by the spirit. Why did you even bother commenting on this thread. Do you have something to offer?

[Dale]

If the old rumors Joseph Smith had children via plural wives was true i would accept it. But i just have not been very impressed with any of the claims at this point. If i ever get impressed with any of the claims it will be because modern DNA studies have verified the claims.

Joseph Smith and Emma had eight children together. If Joseph Smith had all the wives they said he did why can't any child of them be verified as his? We know Joseph Smiths kids with Emma, but only proposed kids from his plural wives. And i think five via DNA research have been proven not his. And i think they only have maybe six or seven more possibilities before they have to give up.

If his kids were hidden in others households why hide the childrens heritage in Utah? I cannot see unless the mother was ashamed of the father being Joseph Smith any need to keep it a secret. The family for keeping safe a child of Joseph Smith if active LDS would have been honored for doing such. Yet i recall a quote where Mary Lightner was told about three kids, but i can't verify the mythical kids ever existed.

I just say i doubt Joseph Smith had 33 affairs with plural wives. More likely any number of them were marriages in name only. Some may have been involved with Joseph Smith if their testimony was reliable. And if the woman made no such claim for herself why slander her with something that may or may not have happened.

I see a tendency for people to make Joseph Smith more guilty in their mind than he was.

------------

I do not see Joseph Smith as having 33 wives. I do not count as real wives women who were never involved with Joseph Smith in mortality. I do not count being sealed to someone in name only as practicing Old Testament type polygamy. I discount the polyandry cases as that kind of polygamy. But keep in mind i consider the polyandry testimony untrue if read as them claiming to have Emma's marital rights in mortality. So i actually am then working if i discount the 11 polyandry cases with a list of 22 possible earthly wives. And i think i can whittle the list down much further.

The current list is 33, but i think it lumps women and Joseph Smith together in a misleading sense. I would much prefer to see the list of 33 broken down into different categories.

Edited June 27, 2008 by Dale

[ocean]

Dale, I really do get what you are saying. It's a horrible thing to make a person guilty if it hasn't been proven. However, right now I am asking myself this question: If this were a worst cast scenario - for the sake of argument lets just say that Joseph suffered sexual temptation and had affairs - would that nullify his prophetic calling? I believe I can actually say that even if it were the worst case scenario, I would still believe he was the prophet of the restoration. If I can say and believe that, then there is nothing that will stop this work.

[Misshalfway]

I don't know if this helps, but David of the OT is a good example of what happens when prophets break the law of Chastity. In my mind, had Joseph made such mistakes, God would have removed him out of his place and put another prophet in his stead. The D&C makes it pretty clear to me that Joseph was .... how shall I say....monitored very closely!!!

[Jenamarie]

I believe that it's bad for the church when members are approached with a hard question relating to church history and are completely ignorant about it. Of course we can't all be expected to be history buffs, but when someone for example brings up the fact that Joseph had 30+ wives etc and the response from a mormon is that it's lies or just anti-mormon, well, quite frankly it reflects badly on the church. There are too many people who see us as ignorant and brainwashed because of episodes like this. I mean, that ignorant person was me, and is me - Here I am in my 30's, have studied a lot - and yet I am just now finding this out about Joseph Smith. Can I just say again that I'm upset? This is something all members should know! Obviously there are going to be people who are just antagonists, whose minds we wouldn't be able to persuade no matter what. But I also think that if mormons were better at knowing their own history - the good and the bad - we would be so much better at bringing people into the church. The real shame is when a person has to find out something true about the church through an anti-mormon website. We as members need to figure out how to combat this better. We are always instructed to not go looking around where there is anti-mormon material. What I find so unforntuate is that that's what I have had to do in order to get certain answers. What is wrong with this picture? You know what would be really great is if the church just put up a website - an official website - that dealt with difficult aspects of church history as well as common criticisms - using not only official church statements but also responses from members, such as responses given in this thread - some of which are very inspiring. We shouldn't be so 'afraid' of all the anti stuff. More importantly, we shouldn't be afraid of our own history. I think that fear and ignorance does more harm than good. If we faced it all head on, and publicly, it would be like a fortress. I know that all of satan's efforts will ultimately work against him. I have had that experience personally - It was through reading anti-mormon literature for the first time that I gained a desire to go to the temple and received my endowment. Has anyone ever wondered how the war in heaven was fought? Obviously it wasnt a physical war. We are having a similar type of war right now.

Some will say that FARMS and FAIR are already doing this, but I agree with you that an OFFICIAL church entity doing just this would be absolutely wonderful. I especially like the website idea!

[ruthiechan]

Ocean, have you ever gone to institute? These things are usually discussed in Institute classes. On Sundays we are taught Gospel principles, the things that are pertinent to our own personal salvation and exaltation. Unfounded claims or the mistakes of others are not included in that.

First of all, Joseph Smith was learning and probably made some mistakes. If Joseph Smith Jr was acting on sexual desires then God will take care of it. However, even if that is the case it does not change the fact that he was still able to bring about the Restored Gospel and taught righteous truths. I know that Joseph had a bit of a temper (though I gotta wonder how much of his temper was brought about through head injuries) and loved to play games such as stick pull that required physical activity and strength.

So Joseph was sealed to many people, okay. No problem. I'm sealed to my mother, my siblings, and thusly I am sealed to my grandparents etc. That does not mean I am married to them. A sealing is not the same as a marriage. . . Otherwise I'd be married to my father right now and that'd just be ew. *wrinkles nose*

People who followed Joseph LOVED him and wanted to be eternally connected to him. Thus, he was sealed to these people as a way to eternally connected to them and their families. It could also be that he was thought of as the Patriach of these sealings, the head of their combined households, and thus the father to all under him. That could explain the one mother on her deathbed telling her daughter that Joseph was her father.

Edit: I also do not believe that we are afraid of our own history. There are many historical books that are available to members. You can go the your local Institute building and there's a library full of knowledge on these things. It's AWESOME.

[Hemidakota]

I don't know if this helps, but David of the OT is a good example of what happens when prophets break the law of Chastity. In my mind, had Joseph made such mistakes, God would have removed him out of his place and put another prophet in his stead. The D&C makes it pretty clear to me that Joseph was .... how shall I say....monitored very closely!!!

Hmm….noting this man demeanor, I simply cannot agree he would of be removed.

[Steven22]

Here is a website that is put out by the church. It says that Joseph Smith had 24 wives but note at the bottom that the information may not be accurate. This is the website that I first found out that he had this many wives.

FamilySearch.org - Search

[Hemidakota]

Ocean, have you ever gone to institute? These things are usually discussed in Institute classes. On Sundays we are taught Gospel principles, the things that are pertinent to our own personal salvation and exaltation. Unfounded claims or the mistakes of others are not included in that.

First of all, Joseph Smith was learning and probably made some mistakes. If Joseph Smith Jr was acting on sexual desires then God will take care of it. However, even if that is the case it does not change the fact that he was still able to bring about the Restored Gospel and taught righteous truths. I know that Joseph had a bit of a temper (though I gotta wonder how much of his temper was brought about through head injuries) and loved to play games such as stick pull that required physical activity and strength.

So Joseph was sealed to many people, okay. No problem. I'm sealed to my mother, my siblings, and thusly I am sealed to my grandparents etc. That does not mean I am married to them. A sealing is not the same as a marriage. . . Otherwise I'd be married to my father right now and that'd just be ew. *wrinkles nose*

People who followed Joseph LOVED him and wanted to be eternally connected to him. Thus, he was sealed to these people as a way to eternally connected to them and their families. It could also be that he was thought of as the Patriarch of these sealings, the head of their combined households, and thus the father to all under him. That could explain the one mother on her deathbed telling her daughter that Joseph was her father.

Edit: I also do not believe that we are afraid of our own history. There are many historical books that are available to members. You can go the your local Institute building and there's a library full of knowledge on these things. It's AWESOME.

Joseph was human and fallible as a person...as many prophets of the past. Each had weaknesses.

If one met the prophet today - veiled being lifted - I do agree, you would want to be eternally connected to this man as we now do with the Savior via the Temple.

[Dale]

Ocean I am Community of Christ and we do not accept D.&C. 132 as scripture. But we accept earlier revelations of Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith Jr. once suggested his revelations be tested in the leading quorums before going to the people. He knew he could be wrong and get a revelation from man, or the Devil. The D.&C. say's a prophet can be guilty of transgression and that can mean as one possibility adultury.

The idea he was a fallen prophet in Nauvoo has been adopted by some in my church. To me if the Book of Mormon is true then his individual revelations could be wrong without effecting the truth of the book. That is why my testimony is in Jesus and not what Joseph Smith did in Nauvoo.

To me if he had lapses from virture it does not prove he had no truth from God. Old Testament polygamists wrote inspired books of scripture. I do not see i think David, Solomon's scriptural contributions as needing to be rejected for having wives. Moses was a polygamist and he wrote scripture.

[Hemidakota]

Here is a website that is put out by the church. It says that Joseph Smith had 24 wives but note at the bottom that the information may not be accurate. This is the website that I first found out that he had this many wives.

FamilySearch.org - Search

FAIRS already did the research after reviewing a book concerning this subject: The Prophet Joseph Smith and His Plural Wives - FARMS Review

BYU.EDU Maxwell Institute FARMS Review of Books Volume: 10 Issue: 2

View PDF Print This Article

The Prophet Joseph Smith and His Plural Wives

Review of In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith by Todd M. Compton

Reviewed By: Richard Lloyd Anderson, Scott H. Faulring

Provo, Utah: Maxwell Institute, 1998. Pp. 67–104

The views expressed in this article are the views of the author and do not represent the position of the Maxwell Institute, Brigham Young University, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The Prophet Joseph Smith and His Plural Wives

Todd M. Compton. In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith. Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1997. xv + 788 pp., with notes and index. $39.95.

Reviewed by Richard Lloyd Anderson and Scott H. Faulring

This is a landmark recent publication, an ambitious first book by Todd M. Compton.1 This informative work of over eight hundred pages compiles individual biographies of the polygamous wives of Joseph Smith, the founding prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. For the first time, readers intrigued with the personalities involved in this unique socioreligious practice have an in-depth examination of the women who were sealed to the Prophet, many of whom were the first Latter-day Saint plural wives. The sensitive issue of the introduction of plural marriage by Joseph Smith is best addressed by honest inquiry, as far as we have data. Gathering reliable material is actually fifty percent of the problem, since everyone who writes must remark on how little is known behind the scenes. In most cases, the Prophet's marriage sealing dates are known; in many instances the comments of Joseph Smith's wives describe how they accepted this marriage system and what their feelings were at that time and later.

Compton received a research fellowship in 1992 from the prestigious Henry E. Huntington Library in San Marino, California (see p. ix), which gave him the opportunity to study the library's collection of the personal writings of Eliza Roxcy Snow, Joseph Smith's best known plural wife. This research stimulated his interest in the Prophet's other plural wives. Because of a lack of accessible information, Compton expanded his research over the next four and a half years, with a goal of compiling detailed biographies on thirty-three women who he believes married Joseph.

The introduction of polygamy in Ohio and Illinois has been controversial and little understood, both in the Prophet's generation and the current one, even among many of the Mormon faith. A few select Latter-day Saints participated in plural marriage prior to the 1846 exodus from Nauvoo, Illinois, out of religious devotion and open-minded obedience. Compton recognizes that deep spiritual conviction was at the base of reestablishing the marriage system of the ancient patriarchs: "Accepting polygamy was a matter of integrity for both Latter-day Saint men and women, given the restorationist underpinnings of their faith and their acceptance of Smith as a direct conduit of revelation" (p. 312).

As Compton discovered while researching for his book, serious study of Mormon plural marriage has special challenges in the period before its 1852 public announcement. The introduction of latter-day polygamy is obscured by the confidentiality first stressed by the Prophet in teaching polygamy to his most devoted followers. Defensive public statements, in which participants honestly denied that the church believed or practiced an immoral system of spiritual wifery, were made in a serious attempt to avert hostilities generated by misunderstandings fed by apostates and anti-Mormons. Certain Mormon dissidents turned into wolves. They attracted others through local and national newspapers and speeches, which distorted the private teachings of the Prophet as being carnal and unrestrained. Political and religious enemies stalked Joseph Smith—the shepherd—and his dedicated flock living in Nauvoo and the surrounding area. Violence in Missouri and the constant threat of its return largely explain the caution with which the Prophet first introduced the principle to those he trusted. Moreover, the Prophet was legally at risk, since Illinois statutes made bigamy a crime.

General Observations about the Book

Overall, In Sacred Loneliness is extremely informative. The book features a high level of research, generally good judgment in the use of source materials, and a fairly comprehensive collection of known data pertaining to the wives of Joseph Smith. No biographer in Mormon history has ever been ambitious enough to write a group biography as extensive as this. Because of the complexity of the subject and an obvious lack of detailed primary sources, the job of compiling full-chapter biographies of Joseph Smith's plural wives could be insurmountable. In Sacred Loneliness was recently honored with the annual best book award from the Mormon History Association. This recognition is deserved because it is the most detailed study of the lifetime experiences of the women sealed to Joseph Smith.

There are, of course, limitations in such a massive collection. Compton has done everything possible to reconstruct lives, but even then the narrative mainly reports outward events, with regular observations that little is known of private lives and inner feelings. The typical biography in this collection moves through a family conversion to Mormonism, gathering to Nauvoo, gaining a personal witness of plural marriage, the sacrifices of the exodus, and then pioneer life in Utah. The author stresses deprivation and sorrow, but the factual reality is the remarkable power of faith most of the wives displayed. He tells the stories of a group of impressive women who gave their all to establish a latter-day gospel dispensation and expand family kingdoms of the hereafter.

In Sacred Loneliness synthesizes hundreds, possibly thousands, of primary and secondary pieces of an enormously complex historical reconstruction. Unfortunately, many of these documentary pieces do not fit together well. Some are gross contradictions while others were purposely misrepresented by their creators. Compton's biggest challenge, from which arose one of the book's greatest weaknesses, was evaluating and selecting the most reliable pieces of biographical evidence to use in portraying these women accurately. The book employs a confusing, nontraditional method of citing supporting information. The main text of the book is devoid of conventional endnote numbers. Instead, In Sacred Loneliness furnishes explanatory notes at the back of the book. These references are introduced by a short contextual phrase identifying the issue. In reading this important work, we were often frustrated by the inordinate time it took to find a source—and were on occasion unsuccessful. The contextual phrases in the reference section take up far more space than consecutive numerals. In our opinion, the traditional numbering system would have been more efficient, pinpointing the references immediately. In content, the notes maintain good scholarly standards, avoiding long irrelevancies and generally meeting the author's stated goal of giving readers the texts of main sources, many of which are in manuscript form and would be time-consuming to locate.

It is important to know the viewpoint of anyone who interprets the teachings and activities of the Prophet Joseph Smith, especially when addressing a challenging subject like plural marriage. Compton is forthright about his position: "I am a practicing Mormon who considers himself believing but who rejects absolutist elements of the fundamentalist world view, e.g., the view of Joseph Smith as omniscient or morally perfect or receiving revelation unmixed with human and cultural limitations. However, I do accept non-absolutist incursion of the supernatural into human experience" (p. 629).

This position is applied in a consistent campaign against plural marriage, with repeated editorializing on the subject. For example, after acknowledging the religious integrity of men and women in polygamy, the introduction adds: "Nevertheless, my central thesis is that Mormon polygamy was characterized by a tragic ambiguity. . . . It was the new and everlasting covenant, having eternal significance. . . . On the other hand . . . it was a social system that simply did not work in nineteenth-century America" (p. xiii). The preface argues this point with a few non-Joseph Smith examples. Is Compton claiming that his book proves the failure of polygamy—or that he wrote the book because he holds this premise? The author seems to wear twin hats of historian and social theorist. For instance, Agnes Coolbrith Smith became the widow of Don Carlos Smith in 1841 and was afterward sealed to him for eternity and married for time, first to her brother-in-law Joseph Smith and later to his cousin George Albert Smith. However, pressures of the exodus blocked this last relationship, and Agnes married William Pickett and moved to California. Later Pickett deserted her. In Sacred Loneliness opines it was illogical to return to Utah because "polygamy was almost an institutionalized form of marital neglect" (p. 170). In another case, the author says that Orson Whitney followed his grandfather and father "in accepting the onerous burden of polygamy" (p. 531). Actually, Orson married his second wife with the consent of the first and lived in the normative dual-wife pattern in Utah. In fact, Compton describes how well this two-household system worked through the fairness of Horace Whitney, Orson's father, and the considerate sisterhood of his wives (see p. 513).

The author explains and reexplains his title: "Often plural wives who experienced loneliness also reported feelings of depression, despair, anxiety, helplessness, abandonment, anger, psychosomatic symptoms, and low self-esteem" (p. xiv–xv). If plurality was sacred, "its practical result, for the woman, was solitude" (p. xv). The narrative sustains this dramatic, tragic mood. Compton paints his subjects with an assortment of brushes. At times he uses the brightest colors and lineaments of faith in interpreting these women, while in other instances he employs mostly muted hues and shadows to achieve a dark and foreboding biographical landscape. The attempt at psychohistory too often fails for lack of materials, as the author regularly admits. Obviously, taking more wives meant spending less time with any one of them. On the other hand, the above complex of "desertion reactions" is not an inevitable result of the system. Joseph Smith's situation is atypical, with complicating tensions of a new teaching and the necessity for secrecy, not to speak of his murder, which imposed grief and unforeseen adjustments on his wives. Moreover, the number of Joseph Smith's sealings, as well as those of Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball, is not representative of Mormon polygamy in the nineteenth century. These leaders set examples of willingness to obey the principle, but Stanley Ivins found that 66.3 percent of Utah polygamists had two wives, and another 21.2 percent had three wives.2 In Sacred Loneliness goes beyond its narrative and anecdotal scope in making subjective judgments on plural marriage.

The Prologue

In Sacred Loneliness opens with a survey chapter: "A Trajectory of Plurality: An Overview of Joseph Smith's Wives."3 If readers assume that Compton's list of thirty-three "well-documented wives" (p. 1) is grossly exaggerated, they will be surprised to know that his enumeration is actually quite conservative. He singles out the lists of Fawn M. Brodie, D. Michael Quinn, and George D. Smith, which range from forty-three to forty-eight wives in total (see pp. 1, 632). The present reviewers agree with Compton that such numbers are inflated. We know that Joseph Smith had multiple wives. The relevant research questions are: "Precisely how many wives?" and "What was the nature of their marital relationship?" Compton addresses these core issues in his prologue. Historians must weigh what little reliable evidence exists and decide whether sufficient information is available to include a woman as one of the Prophet's wives. Compton's list of thirty-three wives is generally supported by one or two of the following sources: early church journals and records, personal writings or affidavits from the women themselves, and recollections of family or friends. Also, Compton adds a group of "possible wives" (pp. 8–9), who are not included with the thirty-three because solid evidence does not support their marriages to Joseph Smith.

Two decades ago, Danel Bachman was the first to set a higher standard for carefully testing evidence in this matter by producing a historically defensible list of Joseph Smith sealings during his lifetime.4 Though Compton acknowledges Bachman's research in notes, he categorizes it as one of several general studies (see p. 632). Yet Bachman's master's thesis is a book-length, specialized study of the very area Compton is focusing on. That work is underplayed by classifying it with Richard Van Wagoner's Dialogue article as "pioneering treatments" (p. 639). Bachman's thesis remains a necessary reference on the subject of Joseph Smith's wives; he felt reliable evidence existed for thirty-one wives. Our evaluation would reduce the number of proved sealings in Joseph Smith's lifetime to twenty-nine. In our judgment, of the thirty-three wives listed by Compton, the present evidence is not adequate for the following four marriages to the Prophet: Lucinda Morgan Harris, Elizabeth Durfee, Sarah Cleveland, and Nancy Maria Winchester. Since three of these were married at the time of their supposed sealings to Joseph Smith, this more conservative approach modifies Compton's view of "polyandry," which we will address later in this review.

Method of Determining the Number of Wives

As mentioned, scholars disagree on the caliber of evidence required to determine the number of wives sealed to Joseph Smith. On one end of the research spectrum, Fawn Brodie listed forty-eight, while Compton brings the number down to thirty-three by demanding a higher level of verification. Compton points out that since Brodie's investigation in the 1940s, "scholars have faulted her for relying on antagonistic sources that have since proven unreliable" (p. ix). Compton evaluated many of these "antagonistic sources," asserting that "certain lists have proved to be reliable" (p. 1). But this reasoning is the Achilles heel of attempts at objectivity in enumerating the Prophet's wives. A compilation of names does not reveal the source of its information. From the viewpoint of strict history, such lists are secondary, unverified documents, unless the author furnishes detail or annotation. Following are a few of these surveys or inventories of the wives of Joseph Smith, with comments on their use in Todd Compton's work.

1. John C. Bennett left the church in 1842 and soon published his malicious exposé, The History of the Saints, which gives initials of seven women married to Joseph Smith, adding stars equaling the remaining letters in their names.5 In Sacred Loneliness concludes that this list has been "adequately substantiated" (p. 1). No discussion or explanation is given to support how Bennett's grouping was "substantiated" by Compton or anyone else. This is not critical enough. Bennett names the sealers in two out of seven cases, but he may not have had dependable information on the other five women. This literary chameleon used names unreliably in some very tall tales of Nauvoo. T. B. H. Stenhouse, who sought negative but accurate information on the Prophet, gave the following caution: "There is, no doubt, much truth in Bennett's book . . . but no statement that he makes can be received with confidence."6 This means that historians should not depend only on that source. In fact, In Sacred Loneliness does not always take Bennett's list at face value; two women that appear there are named only as Joseph Smith's "possible wives" (p. 8, nos. 3–4).

2. Assistant church historian Andrew Jenson later named twenty-seven women who were sealed to Joseph Smith while the Prophet was alive.7 Yet Jenson's compilation itself is secondary, without information on why he included a given person. In a majority of cases Jenson gave the date of sealing, adding who performed it. But Jenson's naming of a woman without particulars is really a research clue needing verification. His research was imperfect, for he failed to name several women where adequate evidence shows they were sealed to the Prophet.

3. In the case of a temple sealing to Joseph Smith after his death, most researchers would not consider that by itself evidence of a living marriage, in spite of the fact that most of these 1846 ordinances involved the Prophet's living wives. Compton acknowledges the problematic nature of these "early posthumous marriages" (p. 8)—in several instances he does not use later sealings as proof of marriages to Joseph Smith during his lifetime (see p. 2). Other reasons are possible for these postmartyrdom sealings.

[MrNirom]

I went through this whole thing by myself.. But I have come to understand it.

Another good site is: Mormonism 201: Chapter 17

Here is a sample about marrying other mens wives.

Claiming sole responsibility for binding and unbinding marriages on earth and in heaven, he did not consider it necessary to obtain civil marriage licenses or divorce decrees. Whenever he deemed it appropriate he could release a woman from her earthly marriage and seal her to himself or to another with no stigma of adultery." Similarly, Daynes noted that with marital barriers removed, there was no need to commit acts of adultery or fornication, thus, Joseph's plural marriages were "not adultery because a man could not commit adultery with wives who belonged to him." Ultimately, the generalized and speculative characterizations regarding these unique marriages find Joseph labeled by a term (polyandry) that does not apply in the fullest sense of definition and degree of intimate involvement implied by its use.

There is a lot to learn.. but bottom line is this. God chooses the MAN to be his mouth piece, not the other way around.

[MrNirom]

Joseph denied practicing polygamy publicly during this time, and I believe he was telling the truth.

Polygamy and Lying

Critics charge that Joseph Smith and his successors made repeated public statements in which they hid or frankly denied the practice of polygamy, despite knowledge to the contrary. It is argued that this dishonesty is morally dubious and inconsistent with the Church's purported principles.

The concept of "civil disobedience" is essential to understanding those occasions in which Joseph Smith or other Church members were not forthright about the practice of polygamy.

I feel lying to protect one self from danger is acceptable.. especially when you are following commandments of the Lord. If you read the above article.. it really does explain what did happen during that time period.

It put all my fears to rest!

[skalenfehl]

Ocean, there are a lot of well thought out answers. The bottom line is we are all at our own level of light and understanding of truth. Some of us are starting to research these questions and answers for ourselves and while we can bear our testimonies to you, you need to find your own testimony of it yourself so that your foundation is strengthened. It is through dedicated study, praying and fasting that you can gain your answer from the Lord. We don't suggest you accept blindly, because there is no such thing as following blindly. Else we would all be lost. God would not allow such a thing. Hence His promise to directly reveal His truths to you personally.

[tntraveler]

I have the exact same issue but I have taken a completely different approach to it than defending him or it. Joseph was man, he was not a perfect man. I don't care to defend him or his actions. I know the spirit testifies to me the of the Holy Bible and the Book of Mormon are true. I know Joseph Smith restored this full gospel to the earth and re established the true church. For this I am grateful. What he did on the weekend so to speak is not my concern.

[skalenfehl]

...Im sure you'll agre however, praying is really not going to give you the answer you need....All I can say to you is from my experience, gaining answers is a difficult and long process and Im still confused now....

Prayer is exactly what's going to give you the answer that you need. Enos, Alma, Lamanite kings, Cornelius, Peter and many, many others also experienced a difficult and long process of learning truth from the Lord and all gained their answers the same way: prayer and personal revelation (and much fasting and struggling of spirit).

http://www.lds.net/forums/learn-about-mormon-church/12337-ask-receive-not-doubting.html

Edited June 28, 2008 by skalenfehl

[Dale]

The traditional RLDS view has been Joseph Smith was not a polygamist. But the modern Community of Christ has persons today who feel he was a polygamist. I confess i have no problem disputing Joseph Smiths involvement with earthly polygamy when getting witnessed to. I have no objection to Joseph Smith denying he was a polygamist. I have no personal problem in supporting his policy of denial. I use Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy by Richard and Pamela Price which is online at the Restoration Bookstore website.

I had this guy at work try to witness to me using the polygamy trivia at one point. I did not feel he wanted to be educated enough to hear the content of In Sacred Lonliness looked at. So i told him the testimony of some of the wives was rejected in the Temple Lot Case. I could have also told him the judge rejected their legal claims to being wives, but thought they still could have had affairs with Joseph Smith, but chose to not share all i knew.

With the polyandry cases i am leaning towards an answer Emma Smith originated. If someone brings up polyandry i am tempted to say "Joseph Smith never taught any such thing. He was only married to her for eternity. They were not to live together as man and wife in mortality. If she was claiming that she was a liar." And i might ask the critic if they have any proof Joseph Smith and the woman had an affair? This places the burdon of proof on the other person to prove the improper affair happened.

[KayaLove00]

Yes, Joeseph Smith had more than one wife. Did he have thirty wives that were already married to other men, no. Did he marry woman who weren't old enough to be woman, no. You have to believe that in those days polygamy wasn't illegal, and it was normal for a man to have more than one wife, but woman couldn't have more than one husband. Joseph was a righteous to his wives and they weren't fourteen years old, they weren't married to other men, and I'm sure he didn't have thirty.

If Joseph Smith had broken the rules that Heavenly Father set, he wouldn't have recieved those wonderful revelations that are the outline of our church. This mormon basher doesn't want you to walk with the light. And the Deciever's fallen angels feel that your confused and disheartened heart and they'll keep whispering in your ears to believe in these things.

There are many people who want to decieve us from our teachings. They want us to let go of the Iron Rod because they already have. I must caution you to stay off those anti-mormon websites, and take comfort in our Heavenly Father, that he'll make these things right in the end. For in the end all things shall be revealed to us.

-Actually, Joseph Smith WAS married to some women who were already married-though it was not 30+, and some of of them he did keep a secret from Emma, (probably because she never like polygamy from the get-go.) These are facts in church history. It's right there in our church history books-some of which I've read, the problem is about 99% of members don't know this. I agree that some of it seems a little fishy and it is hard to have a solid testimony when we hear about these kinds of things. Sometimes I feel like faith is not enough when it comes to issues like this.

Edited June 28, 2008 by KayaLove00

[KayaLove00]

I am so happy to come back and find all of these responses. Thank you so much everyone for taking the time to talk about this. The biggest message I am getting here is the importance of prayer - and reading the scriptures. That of course doesn't mean that I don't need to bother looking for the facts. I will continue to pursue the truth no matter what it is. I fully believe that trying to prove things that can't be proven and arguing will never get anyone anywhere. I also believe that defending the faith is important. My feeling is that the more any of us know, warts and all, the better off we will be - the church will be better for it. We don't need to be major intellectuals, but this day and age many of us who haven't yet had the experience will be faced with questions that are hard to answer, and I feel so strongly that members need to know how to respond. I believe that it's bad for the church when members are approached with a hard question relating to church history and are completely ignorant about it. Of course we can't all be expected to be history buffs, but when someone for example brings up the fact that Joseph had 30+ wives etc and the response from a mormon is that it's lies or just anti-mormon, well, quite frankly it reflects badly on the church. There are too many people who see us as ignorant and brainwashed because of episodes like this. I mean, that ignorant person was me, and is me - Here I am in my 30's, have studied a lot - and yet I am just now finding this out about Joseph Smith. Can I just say again that I'm upset? This is something all members should know! Obviously there are going to be people who are just antagonists, whose minds we wouldn't be able to persuade no matter what. But I also think that if mormons were better at knowing their own history - the good and the bad - we would be so much better at bringing people into the church. The real shame is when a person has to find out something true about the church through an anti-mormon website. We as members need to figure out how to combat this better. We are always instructed to not go looking around where there is anti-mormon material. What I find so unforntuate is that that's what I have had to do in order to get certain answers. What is wrong with this picture? You know what would be really great is if the church just put up a website - an official website - that dealt with difficult aspects of church history as well as common criticisms - using not only official church statements but also responses from members, such as responses given in this thread - some of which are very inspiring. We shouldn't be so 'afraid' of all the anti stuff. More importantly, we shouldn't be afraid of our own history. I think that fear and ignorance does more harm than good. If we faced it all head on, and publicly, it would be like a fortress. I know that all of satan's efforts will ultimately work against him. I have had that experience personally - It was through reading anti-mormon literature for the first time that I gained a desire to go to the temple and received my endowment. Has anyone ever wondered how the war in heaven was fought? Obviously it wasnt a physical war. We are having a similar type of war right now.

I have one comment for Palerider: I started this thread basically for help with an issue I'm struggling with. There are people that lose their testimonies over things like this - people who may be reading this thread. You say that you've been fighting this fight for years and that you don't need to be better at defending Joseph Smith - and yet so far all you have been able to say is that all it comes down to is that he was a prophet and translated the B of M by the power of God. For a lot of people that simply is not enough. Most people need to hear more than that in order to be touched by the spirit. Why did you even bother commenting on this thread. Do you have something to offer?

AMEN Ocean!!!!!! I couldn't have said it any better than that. It's so true what you said. So many members DON'T know the history of the church and don't ask questions when they don't understand something-they just accept it, which is why people say we are a cult. Questioning is a GOOD THING- even President Hinkley said members need to question in order to believe! I feel the church sometimes skirts away from some of the "fine details" that are uncomfortable to talk about. I just can't believe how much I feel the same as you-wow.

Edited June 28, 2008 by KayaLove00

[VisionOfLehi]

How does it affect your testimony?

I can't understand this.

I know the Book of Mormon is the sacred record of Christ's church in ancient America which contains the Fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I know Heavenly Father and Christ appeared to Joseph Smith. Oh how I know! And I know that he was called by Them to translate the plates which became the Book of Mormon.

I know that Joseph Smith was called as a prophet of the Lord to receive revelation for Christ's Church on Earth.

I know that God would not suffer to let a wicked or incapable man lead His Church.

I absolutely know that Jesus Christ is the Firstborn Son of God, the Holy Messiah of Prophecy, Redeemer of Israel, Savior of Mankind. I know He led the life of perfection that ended with perfect obedience but infinite suffering for my sake.

Our Father lives. Christ lives. They are here, they guide us, and they will not allow the righteous to be led astray.

Whether Joseph Smith had one wife or fifty, mortal or eternal, changes none of this. Simply put: It's between Joseph and the Lord.

Joseph was not perfect! We already know this! Plates of Lehi, anyone? And did not the Lord reprimand him? D&C 3! D&C 10!

Trust in the LORD. Testimony only wavers when you cease to do this.

Trust Him.