I'm having some issues with Joseph Smith


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You know.. it think it all comes down to our idea of perfection.

We know that this is Christ's Chruch.. Christ is perfect.. so we expect the Chruch to be perfect. We expect the people in the Church to be pefect. At least our idea of it.

To find out that the Prophet Joseph was not perfect.. Brigham was not perfect.. Some Apostle was not perfect.. a Stake President was not perfect.. a Bishop was not perfect.... it destroys our "image" of what we think the Church should be. Perfect. The Gospel is Perfect. Jesus Christ was perfect. So why can't everyone who is in his Church be perfect? I mean.. come on.. we need perfection somewhere... right?

Why do we let this lack of perfection bother us? It is so easy to say.. "well I know I am not perfect.. but I expect the leader of a Church to be more perfect than I." Like when a child expects a parent to be more perfect. Does it happen? NO

When we say "The Church is true".. don't we mean it's teachings? Don't we mean the idea for which it stands? The purpose of it's exsistance?

When you or I or anyone.. decides to sin.. leave the Church.. speak out against it.. Does it change the status from being "The true Church" to "The false Church"? for everyone else? NO

I think the only thing that should shake our faith is if you learned something terrible about Christ. To find out he was just a flim flam man... now that would make a difference. It is other people outside of the church who want to label Joseph as a false prophet.. or a fallen prophet.. and we somehow allow their rantings to become important to us. We allow the rantings of people outside the church who want to destroy it.. to do so. Hey.. there are more things out there than just Joseph having 34 wives. And any critic who brings up Joseph.. and you answer them on that one.. has a 1000 more items to throw in your face to try to prove that the Church is false. I mean if you spend any time on the FAIR web site.. you can see how the critics come at you from every angle. I mean really.. I would be more concerned if Joseph really believed and taught and said he received a revelation that there were men on the moon! But because he hid polygamy from the world, or failed at a bank, or got angry and didn't act "Christ" like.. or because Brigham thought Adam was God.. or whatever.. does not make the teachings of Christ false or the Gospel any less true.. or our Salvation any less important.

I am not saying that it is not important to discuss these things.. and know about these things. But it is important to get in your head that there is no such thing as Perfect on this world when it comes to human beings. Bottom line is this.. If you don't think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true Church.. which one is? :)

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I think my big problem with Joseph is the polygamy issue, the fact that he married a 14 year old(Hellen Kimble). I just can't get over that.

He didn't marry her.. He was sealed to her at the request of her father. She still lived at home with her parents after the sealing. Joseph died the next year.

Helen states: My father...taught me the principle of Celestial marrage, & having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet, Joseph, he offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet's own mouth...my father introduced to me this principle & asked me if I would be sealed to Joseph.69

It was after this that Joseph was invited to teach and explain the principles of Celestial marriage. Upon learning of the principle for herself from Joseph, she willingly committed herself to the eternal link. Her marriage to Joseph was to ensure choice personal and family relationships..... A non-sexual aspect to the marriage can be reasonably assumed as Helen continued to live with her parents after the sealing. This is in harmony with historian Stanely B. Kimball's interpretation that the marriage was unconsummated

Edited by MrNirom
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I know Joseph was human and was not perfect. I also believe that there were 2 big mistakes he made while on this earth.(I am sure there others) One was in Kirtland and the other in Nauvoo. I think in Kirtland trying to start the bank was huge and when it failed...wow....and then in Nauvoo it was to destroy the printing press. Now having said all of this I don't lose sleep over it and it does not affect my testimony and the restoration of the Church.

All church leaders make mistakes, we make a mistake and try to learn from it and go on.

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I know Joseph was human and was not perfect. I also believe that there were 2 big mistakes he made while on this earth.(I am sure there others) One was in Kirtland and the other in Nauvoo. I think in Kirtland trying to start the bank was huge and when it failed...wow....and then in Nauvoo it was to destroy the printing press. Now having said all of this I don't lose sleep over it and it does not affect my testimony and the restoration of the Church.

All church leaders make mistakes, we make a mistake and try to learn from it and go on.

It is important to note that Joseph was not the only one during that time who's bank failed.

And destroying the printing press.. well.. that was sort of an eye for an eye kinda thing. The Mormons had their press destroyed in Missouri with no harm or foul to those that did it.. Joseph probably thought the same thing would happen. It didn't.

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It is important to note that Joseph was not the only one during that time who's bank failed.

And destroying the printing press.. well.. that was sort of an eye for an eye kinda thing. The Mormons had their press destroyed in Missouri with no harm or foul to those that did it.. Joseph probably thought the same thing would happen. It didn't.

I know all about the others....and the printing press....i just gave an opinion and thats all it is....it has no bearing on my thoughts of him whatsoever.
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We can also take the same microscope off of Joseph Smith and put it onto other prominent men and prophets of scripture: Moses, Jonah, King David, Solomon, Isaac, etc. Does their humanity take away from the validity of the revelations and great works that they performed on behalf of the Lord?

There are prophets who committed questionable acts. Moses killed a man and was still called of God and led Israel out of Egyptian bondage. He parted the Red Sea! Jonah refused to preach to the extremely wicked people of Nineveh (modern day area of Iraq) and fled the Lord until he agreed to obey Him and the people repented. King David took Bathsheba in and laid with her and had her husband killed. They bore a son, the wise beyond his years servant of the Lord, Solomon, who, when he was old, began to take in many wives of other cultures who worshiped other gods and even built shrines for their sacrifices. The stories go on and on. Does this mean that they weren't men of God? Does God wait for man to be perfect before He calls them to do His work?

Our biblical patriarchs were given more than one wife by God for His purposes. So was Joseph Smith. This is a good subject to discuss, learn about and strengthen our testimony, but we are all at different levels of understanding and thus it is important to ask and research these question, but they don't have to be the foundation of your testimony because there are millions of other questions to be asked and answered that can shake your faith if it isn't grounded. It is the testimony of the truthfulness of God's word and His work (gospel and the restoration) that should ground our faith and not how many wives that Abraham, David, Gideon, Joseph Smith or Brigham Young had. The root of the question should be why polygamy? Why in the Old Testament and why during the restoration? Why did God give unto them more than one wife? Why did God command Isaac to kill his son as a sacrifice? As we begin to learn about the ways of the Lord, our knowledge of the gospel upon which our testimonies are already based can continue to grow and flourish rather than suffer because we are approaching it from the wrong perspective.

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I don't think taking multiple wifes was approved of by God. I think it was commonly done but I think overall it was accepted vs. promoted like an exception. I still need to look into that but that's my thought at the moment. New testament we see that marriage was designed for one man and one woman I think.

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Without going into much dissertation, I'll simply respond with a scripture:

D&C 132: 1, 38-39, 55

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—

• • •

38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

• • •

55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.

Edited by skalenfehl
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The scriptures are there and the history if one carefully studies the Old Testament. Here's one more resource for those of you who really want to expand your search:

LDS.org - Topic Definition - Polygamy (Plural Marriage)

Jacob also taught in the Book of Mormon that men were to only have one wife and abstain from whoredoms. Unless God calls man to raise up seed unto Him, men are to have only one wife. Men and women are to live the laws and covenants of chastity.

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I don't think taking multiple wifes was approved of by God. I think it was commonly done but I think overall it was accepted vs. promoted like an exception. I still need to look into that but that's my thought at the moment. New testament we see that marriage was designed for one man and one woman I think.

But when Nathan (a Prophet) came to chastize King David for having Bathsheba's husband killed, he didn't say "How dare you have so many wives!" he said, in essence: "If you wanted another wife, all you had to do was ask, and the Lord would have given one to you." His having multiple wives wasn't an issue. It was how he obtained that last one. Just like King Solomon having a thousand wives. It wasn't the number, it was the false idols they worshiped, and convinced Solomon to worship, that angered the Lord.

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I'm actually the husband of KayaLove and she shared this with me. I thought I'd add my own thoughts on the issue. First, I was raised by parents who were and still are anti-Mormon. All through growing up I heard anti-Mormon sermons at least twice a year, my mother owned books on the subject, etc, so when I joined the Church, I definately needed some answers. When I first began investigating the Church I decided to try and get the most objective sources I could find. It wasn't all that hard, in fact the Church itself has had some very good historical sources that they have made available to the public in the past. The only thing is, as you mentioned, members of the Church are kept in the dark about these historical accounts and sources and don't know they exist or where to find them. What I found is that many (well, most) members of the Church do not want to know anything unless it is flattering to the Church, and anything contraversial or unpleasant they shut themselves and others off from by either claiming it's anti-Mormon or simply false. You can even see this done visually in paintings of Joseph Smith, paintings from his time show him with a big nose, and in his later years a bit of a belly, but in recent paintings you'd think he was a male model with chiseled features and a great build.

I would not have gained a testimony myself unless I had been able to research the actual truth. If members had stopped me from reading the actual accounts I found in historical books and documents, I would not have gained a testimony. One of my favorite hymns is "Oh Say What Is Truth," and I strongly agree with the lyrics which I advise all to review.

Anyway, to get to my point, there are several great scriptures that I feel should guide members on this subject:

D&C 109:7

"seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith"

To me the best books would not leave out important information in order to persuade others deceitfully, such as teaching that Joseph Smith had no faults or skipping over such important points as the polygamy years and Joseph Smith's practice of it. Also, many claim prayer is all that is needed, however this scripture tells us to seek learning by study and ALSO by faith, it does NOT say to seek learning through faith only or prayer only but specifically says to learn from books and through study. Some would suggest this means study of the scriptures, but Brigham Young once taught that if all we study is the scriptures we are doomed to become sectarians, which God does not desire.

D&C 131:6

"It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance."

To me this means that being kept ignorant of the Church's history will not save us, we must be able to recognize gospel truth and choose it even after we know all the perceived blemishes in the Church and it's history.

1 Peter 3:15

"be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you." Once again, I find this to mean that we must be able to answer even tough questions. Avoiding them or ignoring them will never establish a testimony within ourselves or in others.

The fourth scripture I will have to locate once again, but it tells us that it is man's duty to learn. I hold this to mean that those who choose to ignore anything they do not feel comfortable with are not doing their duty as God has told us, after all, do members not criticize the Catholic Church for ignoring it's negative history? Why would we not hold ourselves to that same standard?

And last of all, here are some books that I found useful in learning the Church's history, remember, it is out there and it isn't even hidden, it's just that many members have ignored their responsibility to know their own history and so very few know where to find it. Rather than read good books with reliable history, many choose to read Mormon historical fiction that puts the Church in a good light without any human faults whatsoever.

"A Comprehensive History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" by B.H. Roberts

"Porter Rockwell" by Richard Lloyd Dewey

"The Missouri Persecutions" by B.H. Roberts

"40 Years Among the Indians" by Dan Jones

"Rough Stone Stone Rolling" by Richard Lyman Bushman

"Discourses of Brigham Young" by John A. Widtsoe

"The Encyclopedia of Mormonism" which can be accessed online as well as at your local library, and has the advantage of being catalogued by subject. Here is the link to the online source:

Encyclopedia of Mormonism

Edited by KayaLove00
Forgot to add something
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Like I said, I don't doubt that it happened. I think it came out of selfishness and lust. Look at how God made the first couple. He did not start with Adam and multiple women from the account read in creation. It did go on in the O.T. a lot. Then we see a change in the N.T. That's all I'm saying. I don't think God blessed men for having more than one wife. I think He put up with it. I don't think that was his plan, for man to take more than one.

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Like I said, I don't doubt that it happened. I think it came out of selfishness and lust. Look at how God made the first couple. He did not start with Adam and multiple women from the account read in creation. It did go on in the O.T. a lot. Then we see a change in the N.T. That's all I'm saying. I don't think God blessed men for having more than one wife. I think He put up with it. I don't think that was his plan, for man to take more than one.

Genesis 16:

2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my amaid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.

3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.

Note: Strong's Concordance gives both mentions of "wife" the same number, 0802. It wasn't a "translation" of something.

And, before you would say it was Sarai who gave this order, the Lord commands Hagar to obey Sarai later in the chapter.

And yes, in this case, Abram was blessed for having multiple wives, and his wives were blessed as well.

Is the change in the NT God's will, or merely the changed culture of the time?

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I was thinking today about this thread and about some of the comments concerning Joseph and his imperfections. Yes, he was imperfect but the question here is about his worthiness. Would any of our current leaders be worthy if they had broken the law of chastity? Would they be blessed to continue on in their sacred capacity? Joseph was ushering in the last dispensation for heaven's sake! The core issue, I think, is not about polygamy at all. It is whether or not Joseph practiced it in righteousness and worthiness.

I think this issue is huge. If he was unworthy, then it does discredit this entire work. Would you listen to Pres Hinkley if such activities were going on in his life??? Would God usher in the last dispensation with a servant he couldn't trust? I think the answer to that is absolutely not!! It is a black and white answer. Either Joseph was worthy or he wasn't. Period.

Official Declaration 1

If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.

Edited by Misshalfway
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Yes, i said once, and will say as many times as needed: ANY PROBLEM CAN BE SOLVED THROUGH HUMBLE/MEEK PRAYER, ANYTHING CAN BE UNDERSTOOD!

Really? So why is there still illness and suffering in the world? Why is my father in law still ill? Prayer may help some people with comfort but it does not solve problems. If that was the case my in laws would have a much happier life to the one they have. And they have probably prayed enough for eveyone in the world twice over!! Im sure some people gain a degree of comfort from prayer but it does not solve problems. If I pray and say, God, why did Joseph Smith have so many wives? What sort of answer can I possibly get thats valid from a 'feeling' as how else is he going to answer me?

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Perhaps the way you approach HIM is the wrong way. Instead of saying "Why did Joseph Smith have so many wives" the best approach would be to research, find an answer and then ask Heavenly Father if your answer is correct. You should then get that feeling of validation.

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If he was unworthy, then it does discredit this entire work.

I wonder who's job it is to determine that he was unworthy?

Does a man become unworthy before he does the unworthy act or after?

When my bishop counseled me on my marriage.. told the ward the things they were to do to keep themselves worthy.. excommunicated those who were unworthy.. and then gets excommunicated himself for adultery.. should we dismiss everything he taught and counseled in the past?

How do we know that the Lord had decided Joseph was unworthy? Would you not think that the Lord would have told somebody? That he would have had Joseph removed?

Or do we really really think that the Lord does not really talk to man and this whole God talking to man thing is a sham?

We can't have it both ways.... What do you think?

Edited by MrNirom
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Really? So why is there still illness and suffering in the world? Why is my father in law still ill? Prayer may help some people with comfort but it does not solve problems. If that was the case my in laws would have a much happier life to the one they have. And they have probably prayed enough for eveyone in the world twice over!! Im sure some people gain a degree of comfort from prayer but it does not solve problems. If I pray and say, God, why did Joseph Smith have so many wives? What sort of answer can I possibly get thats valid from a 'feeling' as how else is he going to answer me?

I have learned with difficult trials in my life, especially with illnesses and death, that some things happen because that is the natural course of things and sometimes, the Lord's will is not our will. Seeking to understand His will is the key to understanding our purpose and how we can comfort each other, strengthen each other and come away stronger for it. A brother in my ward recently passed away from illness. Was he robbed of precious time with his family and many good years of a productive life? It depends who you ask. But he knew that it was the Lord's will and it was his time to move on in his calling on the other side. As he put it just before he died, "I know the plan." The Spirit was so strong at his viewing and I have no doubt that he was reaching out to all those who visited his casket to let us know that he was alive and well and right where he needed to be. He had left his mortal body behind, but he lives on. So shall we.

Regarding the concerns of many about Joseph Smith, plural marriage, or any gospel principle or doctrine, receiving a witness of truth and being converted go hand in hand, but aren't always immediate. Bruce R. McConkie has said that conversion can be a process and this can be likened to the parable of faith being a seed that is planted and nourished until it becomes a tree yielding good fruit. That seed is the witness of truth and we nourish it by learning and studying and seeking to understand God's ways line upon line until our knowledge is perfect. This is the way God intended it to be. The truth is laid before us. We have only to search the scriptures, the history, the doctrine and the ways of the Lord to be fully converted.

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I think my big problem with Joseph is the polygamy issue, the fact that he married a 14 year old(Hellen Kimble). I just can't get over that.

I don't think he married her. I get the impression from he she thought her sealing to Joseph Smith was just a ceremony. That she did not think that any marital rights in the flesh was what she agreed to. With Todd Compton concluding she likely never had a marital relationship with Joseph Smith i see that supportive of that conclusion.

I have proposed her unusual understanding may have made it a pretend marriage ceremony under Illinois law. The only reason for them agreeing to a marriage in the afterlife only was polygamy was contrary to civil law. I have not seen presented any legal proof that such a sealing would violate the law. I compare it to making a legal contract to pay someone some money with an loophole to get you off the hook in mortality. If one put into the contract payment due in the afterlife only you certainly wern't agreeing to a real arrangement in the flesh.

So i have proposed in short because of the unusual idea Helen had it may have legally invalidated her marriage to Joseph smith. If am right in regards to her idea of the sealing she may never have married Joseph Smith.

While doing research on my point i found the story of a guy that was charged in court with polygamy. But because of a technicality the charge was dismissed because it was found he never legally married one of his wives.

In studying this issue i found there were certain criteria that had to be met for a marriage to qualify as a marriage. If that criteria is not met the couple was never married. The couple knowing full well they were agreeing to live together then in life without qualification would be one of the criteria. But if they were making an arrangement in the afterlife when polygamy could be legal how is that criminal activity?

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Really? So why is there still illness and suffering in the world? Why is my father in law still ill? Prayer may help some people with comfort but it does not solve problems. If that was the case my in laws would have a much happier life to the one they have. And they have probably prayed enough for eveyone in the world twice over!! Im sure some people gain a degree of comfort from prayer but it does not solve problems. If I pray and say, God, why did Joseph Smith have so many wives? What sort of answer can I possibly get thats valid from a 'feeling' as how else is he going to answer me?

You can know the truth of all things through sincere prayer, by the power of the Holy Ghost. It's a matter of faith. The answers themselves come in different ways. I think you might be missing the point a little.

I got an answer once to a question like that. I had been praying for weeks, and one Sunday morning while listening to a talk by one of my priesthood leaders, I heard my answer. It seemed like it was custom made for me, though, I'm sure he didn't know it. He was teaching by the power of the Holy Ghost, and I felt the witness of the Spirit right then that made it clear to me that it was in answer to my prayer. It wasn't the answer I had hoped for, but after that I was at ease and I knew the will of the Lord concerning that thing.

Besides, prayer is not some magical genie that grants all of our wishes! Not getting the answer you want, like all your loved ones being healed of their illnesses, does not mean the prayer was not answered. If you truly have faith, and you trust God, he will make the answers known to you by the power of the Holy Ghost.

I say it without any reservations, God has answered my prayers, and the ones he hasn't answered yet, I am confident that He will in his own due time.

Regards,

Vanhin

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I hope I'm not changing the thread titled, I'm having some issues with Joseph Smith. I don't intend for my post to drift but the last posts have lead me to post a response on prayer/revelation.

There's a wonderful book out called "Hearing The Voice of The Lord" by Gerald N. Lund

In this book he states: What Principles Govern The Giving and Receiving of Revelation?

1. God determines all aspects of revelation.

2. We must activively seek revelation.

3. Most revelation come incrementally.

A qoute that was put in this book:

We should recognize that the Lord will speak to us through the Spirit in his own time and in his own way. Many people do not understand this principle. They believe that when they are ready and when it suits their convenience, they can call upon the Lord and he will immediately respond, even in the precise way they have prescribed. Revelation does not come that way. Dallin H. Oaks, Ensign, March 1997, 10.

We are here to learn to walk by faith, and sometimes the only way we learn faith is to have a blessing withheld. Though we may be tempted to view this as a punishment or decide that God doesn't care, it is simply another manifestation of the principle that God, in all His wisdom and knowledge (empasis added) decides when a revelation or answer to prayers should be given.

We are like little children -- impatient and want to know why right now!

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