Separating Wheat from Tares - finding common ground with other Christians.


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I think many Latter-day Saints believe that we are getting close to a time when there will be a separation of the righteous from the wicked, the wheat from the tares. That separation may mark the division between those whose life choices have prepared them to endure a Terrestrial (Millennial) glory, and those who have chosen Telestial and will have their physical bodies destroyed by the glory of our Savior's perhaps imminent "Second Coming."

"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left." Matthew 25: 32-33

Matthew 25

There are many more scriptural references to nations, kindreds, tongues, and people:

Word Search: nations kindreds tongues people

As Latter-day Saints, we are commissioned to help lift God's children from a Terrestrial state to a Celestial state by adding to the truths found in all other churches. We perform authorized priesthood ordinances, and in holy temples apply the apostolic sealing power to bless God's children eternally. That is why LDS missionaries lovingly work even among righteous fellow followers of Jesus Christ, to add to what they already have.

But that work is in preparation for a time beyond the Millennium when this world will leap from a Terrestrial to a Celestial glory. God sows His seeds early...

In addition to that exclusive Celestial work, I believe that Latter-day Saints are also commissioned to help lift people from Telestial wickedness to Terrestrial righteousness. That task I think we share with god-fearing people of all religious denominations. And that task is the one most urgently needed to be carried forth in these days when it may soon be too late for the wicked to repent and qualify for life during the Millennium. The common sexual sins of our time will almost certainly place unrepentent fornicators and adulterers on God's left hand, they may not survive into the Millennium, they must be warned.

Also, the Gospel still needs to be carried to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people.

It is my thinking that much of the work of helping lift people from Telestial to Terrestrial (wickedness to righteousness) including perhaps preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to all nations can be carried out today by Cyber Missionaries of all denominations, not just by the Saints whose focus is on priesthood ordinances and FULNESS. Am I wrong in this? What do you think?

God is no respecter of persons, Latter-day Saints may have many more helpers than we sometimes think we have. Perhaps in these tempestuous last days of preparation for the leap from Telestial to Terrestrial we have more COMMON GROUND with other Christians and god-fearing people everywhere than we tend to think we have!

"That these plates of brass should go forth unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who were of his seed." 1 Nephi 5:18

1 Nephi 5

The above reference is to the brass Plates of Laban, the commandments of the Lord to the descendents of Joseph. This could refer to parts of the Bible and possibly the Torah - which of course could be taught to other nations, kindreds, tongues, and people by god-fearing people who are not necessarily Latter-day Saints.

Do you think we are nearing a separation of the righteous from the wicked, the wheat from the tares?

Do you think that many god-fearing people everywhere are as capable as Latter-day Saints of helping lift God's children on earth from Telestial to Terrestrial so they can survive the end times and live on into the Millennium or qualify for the first resurrection?

How can we best get the common ground message out to Christians of other denominations and effectively join with them as Cyber Missionaries in the task of crying repentance, and teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to every nation? (Granted, baptism by proper authority is essential to continue on the road to Celestial glory, but perhaps only righteous living is required to escape the fire to come??)

Comments anyone?

Edited by justamere10
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I love to share the Gospel.. but I have to admit.. it is harder here. People are more willing to say things they would not normally say in a face to face encounter. Plus there just seems to be more people out there that love to argue and degrade.. no real interest.

It is a goal of some of the non believers to occupy the time of missionarys.. to keep them from their goal of talking to people who might listen to the message. I have seen this practiced and taught on the web.

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I enjoy taking the time to talk about the gospel, and yes I think that other religions have some truth to them and I would like to point out the Joseph Smith once told other that if they had anything good to be bring it with them. (Something to that effect) There are good people in the world who are not of the LDS religion who have something to contribute to the raising of the saints. I hope that we can all be open to others and share the good that each of us have.

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I believe it was Joseph F McConkie who said, if we were sellling vacuum cleaners and told the ladies of the house that their vacuum is just like ours, does the same job, same quality, and same performance, in other words ours is just like theirs and has many things in common what would compel them to change (buy) our message. We will not, in my opinion accomplish the goal to bring others unto the true Christ if we try to align oursleves with their doctrines. Now I know the point was that if was have some common ground it gives us a foundational relationship, but some are too afarid to preach the true doctrines like living prophest, living scriprues and a living church (See D&C 1:30), then we have not done much other than dilute the faith. I think the bold aproach is going to sound the clarion call to those who are prepared.

A

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I believe it was Joseph F McConkie who said, if we were sellling vacuum cleaners and told the ladies of the house that their vacuum is just like ours, does the same job, same quality, and same performance, in other words ours is just like theirs and has many things in common what would compel them to change (buy) our message. We will not, in my opinion accomplish the goal to bring others unto the true Christ if we try to align oursleves with their doctrines. Now I know the point was that if was have some common ground it gives us a foundational relationship, but some are too afarid to preach the true doctrines like living prophest, living scriprues and a living church (See D&C 1:30), then we have not done much other than dilute the faith. I think the bold aproach is going to sound the clarion call to those who are prepared.

A

I am sorry but I could not help laughing at the idea that other religions suck. Please - do not try to take offense with my bad taste in humor.

The Traveler

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I am sorry but I could not help laughing at the idea that other religions suck. Please - do not try to take offense with my bad taste in humor.

LOL...really hard. That was just priceless.

I often times use an analogy with educational levels. k thru 12 is good. It is a critical and necessary baseline but is not the end. Nobody can argue that the more education the better prepared a person would be, greater income, possibilities and choices. also more leisure time for the family. Also better prepared to deal with the challenges of every kind that surely will come our way thru life. The kingdom of God is the same.

I ask people: Are you hungry for more knowledge and insight into the mysteries of God? Do you know and understand the existential truths about the cosmos, God relationship with us and our future potential as His offsprings? Do you feel you have the power and ability to deal with Satan and beat him at his own game, namely overcoming his temptations, which he has perfected over an eternity to try and defeat us? Do you feel you have the power and authority to act in the name of God, to invoke His name and change by faith thru His grace nature itself?

In humility but with certainty, I can declare that we know these things and we teach these things to the whole world if they are humble and willing. It would be difficult for me to say anything else.

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Hi justamere10

I think that you are skipping some steps...we are not commanded to lift anyone from the terrestrial kingdom into the Celestial kingdom. No man can do this. This is totally God's domain...as the man at this stage learns to hear His voice in their hearts...so that they can be taught of By the Father.

Who then comes unto Christ?

John 6:45 - It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

But what we are commanded to do...is to Teach the Gospel of Repentance to the Gentiles [Christians and others]. And there is nothing else we can do for them until they enter into this gospel and live its laws so that the Lord can forgive them of their sins.

D&C 11:9 - Say nothing but repentance unto this generation. Keep my commandments, and assist to bring forth my work, according to my commandments, and you shall be blessed.

If the Christians do not wish to enter into this gospel there is nothing more we can do for them.

It is only after remission of sins...that Any one then become ready for the perfecting of the Saints.

The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.434

We are impressed that the mission of the Church is threefold:

1.... " -- To proclaim the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people;"

2.... "-- To perfect the Saints by preparing them to receive the ordinances of the gospel and by instruction and discipline to gain exaltation;

3.... "-- To redeem the dead by performing vicarious ordinances of the gospel for those who have lived on the earth.

On Item no# 2...there is more than to receive the ordinances and church instruction and discipline. This comment only the beginning.

Peace be unto you

bert10

I think many Latter-day Saints believe that we are getting close to a time when there will be a separation of the righteous from the wicked, the wheat from the tares. That separation may mark the division between those whose life choices have prepared them to endure a Terrestrial (Millennial) glory, and those who have chosen Telestial and will have their physical bodies destroyed by the glory of our Savior's perhaps imminent "Second Coming."

"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left." Matthew 25: 32-33

Matthew 25

There are many more scriptural references to nations, kindreds, tongues, and people:

Word Search: nations kindreds tongues people

As Latter-day Saints, we are commissioned to help lift God's children from a Terrestrial state to a Celestial state by adding to the truths found in all other churches. We perform authorized priesthood ordinances, and in holy temples apply the apostolic sealing power to bless God's children eternally. That is why LDS missionaries lovingly work even among righteous fellow followers of Jesus Christ, to add to what they already have.

But that work is in preparation for a time beyond the Millennium when this world will leap from a Terrestrial to a Celestial glory. God sows His seeds early...

In addition to that exclusive Celestial work, I believe that Latter-day Saints are also commissioned to help lift people from Telestial wickedness to Terrestrial righteousness. That task I think we share with god-fearing people of all religious denominations. And that task is the one most urgently needed to be carried forth in these days when it may soon be too late for the wicked to repent and qualify for life during the Millennium. The common sexual sins of our time will almost certainly place unrepentent fornicators and adulterers on God's left hand, they may not survive into the Millennium, they must be warned.

Also, the Gospel still needs to be carried to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people.

It is my thinking that much of the work of helping lift people from Telestial to Terrestrial (wickedness to righteousness) including perhaps preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to all nations can be carried out today by Cyber Missionaries of all denominations, not just by the Saints whose focus is on priesthood ordinances and FULNESS. Am I wrong in this? What do you think?

God is no respecter of persons, Latter-day Saints may have many more helpers than we sometimes think we have. Perhaps in these tempestuous last days of preparation for the leap from Telestial to Terrestrial we have more COMMON GROUND with other Christians and god-fearing people everywhere than we tend to think we have!

"That these plates of brass should go forth unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who were of his seed." 1 Nephi 5:18

1 Nephi 5

The above reference is to the brass Plates of Laban, the commandments of the Lord to the descendents of Joseph. This could refer to parts of the Bible and possibly the Torah - which of course could be taught to other nations, kindreds, tongues, and people by god-fearing people who are not necessarily Latter-day Saints.

Do you think we are nearing a separation of the righteous from the wicked, the wheat from the tares?

Do you think that many god-fearing people everywhere are as capable as Latter-day Saints of helping lift God's children on earth from Telestial to Terrestrial so they can survive the end times and live on into the Millennium or qualify for the first resurrection?

How can we best get the common ground message out to Christians of other denominations and effectively join with them as Cyber Missionaries in the task of crying repentance, and teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to every nation? (Granted, baptism by proper authority is essential to continue on the road to Celestial glory, but perhaps only righteous living is required to escape the fire to come??)

Comments anyone?

Edited by bert10
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Thank-you for that comprehensive post.

I think you will find that the focus of the new "Sifting Time" discussion board at my site is precisely what you have indicated as the task of the Latter-day Saints. But go there and let me know if you see it differently.

In addition to doing the work needed to help lift people from a Telestial wicked state to a Terrestrial righteous state on this earth, Latter-day Saints also, in their holy temples, do essential work that can help qualify God's children who are living and who are dead to progress towards the Celestial Kingdom. Other denominations can help with the former commission but cannot do the latter work, that is exclusively given to the LDS to perform.

That's how I see it.

Edited by VisionOfLehi
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Hi justamere10

If the Christians do not wish to enter into this gospel there is nothing more we can do for them.

It is only after remission of sins...that Any one then become ready for the perfecting of the Saints.

What is "this gospel?" Is it the LDS restoration? I ask because, as I understand it, there is no such being as one who is a Christian, but does not embrace the gospel. Also, if "this gospel," is different from the Christian gospel, then why are non-LDS berated for suggesting that the LDS gospel is "a different gospel?"

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Gospel, to me, is another word for a message, teaching or testimony. For example, the Gospel of Matthew is the testimony of Matthew for the purpose of persuading the Jews that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. Mark's Gospel, or testimony/message, etc was written to the Gentiles. Luke's Gospel (part one to his part two/Acts of the Apostles) was written to convince Theophilus of Christ's divinity.

The Book of Mormon was written as another testament of Jesus Christ and like the four gospels, to convince "the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the eternal God..."

Jesus Christ himself testified to them saying:

3 Ne. 27: 13-22

13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.

19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day.

The Book of Mormon was not just written for the Mormons, just like the Bible was not just written for any one particular group of people, but together they testify and serve as two witnesses that Jesus is the Christ and it is only through Jesus Christ that we can gain salvation. He has paved the way and has showed us the way. It is up to us to find that narrow gate (baptism), enter therein and follow the straight and narrow path to our salvation. This is Christ's message to all the world, not just Mormons or Jews or Gentiles.

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What is "this gospel?" Is it the LDS restoration? I ask because, as I understand it, there is no such being as one who is a Christian, but does not embrace the gospel. Also, if "this gospel," is different from the Christian gospel, then why are non-LDS berated for suggesting that the LDS gospel is "a different gospel?"

PC - You know he probably "mis-spoke" there. Semantics, perhaps. It is the same Gospel. We speak of the Restoration because of doctrine that was there at the beginning that was slowly taken away and other things not intended that polluted the pristine doctrine of the Savior.

As you know, PC, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Him, we teach His Gospel and doctrine and encourage all men to come onto Him. We hope that all would listen to what has been revealed by Him in the latter days for our benefit that by His grace and thru faith in His name we may be counted with the faithful and worthy of salvation in His kingdom. Everything else is subject to this.

My brother, you have been around here long enough to know when somebody tries a shortcut in the language of Shakespeare. It seldom works.

Cheers:)

Edited by Islander
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I am not an LDS Member. In reading Matthew 25 of the original post-I always thought that passage meant seperating the believers/Christians from the unbelievers/non-Christians.

If we get into heaven-based on our works alone-what good is The Savior? There is no need for the atonement --if it is all about us.

I have read in Sacred Scripture that we may be rewarded for our works of love toward others and our faithfulness to God's commandments but Heaven-at least my version of it-is a ultimately-a free gift. I realize LDS may understand this escatology differently.

-so-I hope there is common ground between myself-a Catholic Christian and my LDS friends as LDS-Christians.

My motivation -in this life-is one of love-giving love to others and reflecting the Love of God to those I meet.

Any rewards -I may get---I would call desert!

I am sometimes not very good at showing Love-but we have the perfect example in action for us in Jesus and the atoning work of our loving Savior.

-Carol

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Matthew 25, particularly the parable of the ten virgins refers to the many faithful who live a "terrestrial law" but still aren't as valiant as those who live a "celestial law" (1 Cor. 15, D&C) and therefore not prepared for the bridegroom. There are still many good people on the earth, who still do not prepare fully for Christ's coming. This is not to say they don't believe in Christ, but some simply aren't as faithful in their works. Notice Christ uses "virgins" as his metaphor, signifying those who are chaste (celestial and terrestrial). But because of their foolishness in not preparing fully as Christ has prescribed (conversation with Nicodemus/baptism, endure to the end etc), will not be ready because they were not valiant. The same principle applies to the man who hid his talents.

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What is "this gospel?" Is it the LDS restoration? I ask because, as I understand it, there is no such being as one who is a Christian, but does not embrace the gospel. Also, if "this gospel," is different from the Christian gospel, then why are non-LDS berated for suggesting that the LDS gospel is "a different gospel?"

I guess we have to define gospel.

1. Have a faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior.

2. By believing on him.. you are willing to have a change of heart.... so you are willing to repent for the sins you committed.. and change your ways. You can't continue to say you are sorry for committing adultery.. and then go do it again and again. By obeying his commandments.. this is the works we are talking about.

3. Be Baptized for the remission of sins.

4. Have the Gift of the Holy Ghost given by the laying on of hands.

That is basically.. the gospel of Jesus Christ.

So for those Christians who believe this.. they have the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is only one thing missing between what they believe.. and what we believe.

The authority. The Lord requires one of Authority to do the baptizing.. and the confirmation of the Gift of the Holy Ghost. And as you know.. the authority is what we call the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood.

My wife.. having lived in California.. searched for a church for 30 years. She has been to many and experienced many. She told me of one Christian church that had mothers baptizing children.. and children baptizing children.. and children baptizing adults. It is quite obvious they have moved the "authority" from the pastor.. to anyone.

So if narrow is the gate.. and straight is the path.. you can see that if God really does require this Authority.. the gate just got a lot narrower for everyone.

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Help me if I am reading you wrong-so--Christians-if not LDS Christians-are not prepared for the Bridgegroom--and we-- are somehow different because we are not "valient" enough?

Again-where is the need for a Savior-if it is all about what we do-rather than what has been done for us by the love, suffering and atonement of Jesus?

I understand the "bride" to be a reference to be understood as The Church Universal.

Celestial and Terrestial terms are not understood by most outside the LDS Church.

Will Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindu's-also be in the same place as Christians-other than LDS Christians-which I assume-from your discussion-will have achieved a Celestial or existence closer to The Heavenly Father? Again-my question-why the need for Jesus?

Matthew 25, particularly the parable of the ten virgins refers to the many faithful who live a "terrestrial law" but still aren't as valiant as those who live a "celestial law" (1 Cor. 15, D&C) and therefore not prepared for the bridegroom. There are still many good people on the earth, who still do not prepare fully for Christ's coming. This is not to say they don't believe in Christ, but some simply aren't as faithful in their works. Notice Christ uses "virgins" as his metaphor, signifying those who are chaste (celestial and terrestrial). But because of their foolishness in not preparing fully as Christ has prescribed (conversation with Nicodemus/baptism, endure to the end etc), will not be ready because they were not valiant. The same principle applies to the man who hid his talents.

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PC - You know he probably "mis-spoke" there. Semantics, perhaps. It is the same Gospel. We speak of the Restoration because of doctrine that was there at the beginning that was slowly taken away and other things not intended that polluted the pristine doctrine of the Savior.

The potential for confusion is huge because there is a sameness, yet a uniqueness to the doctrine of restoration. Jesus is central, still. Yet "precious truths" are said to be restored. So, let me see if I do understand. Is the meaning that "Christians do well to receive "the fulness" of the gospel, such as has been restored?"

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I guess we have to define gospel.

1. Have a faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior.

2. By believing on him.. you are willing to have a change of heart.... so you are willing to repent for the sins you committed.. and change your ways. You can't continue to say you are sorry for committing adultery.. and then go do it again and again. By obeying his commandments.. this is the works we are talking about.

So far almost everyone should be happy. Some people might be nervous about whether obedience is a prerequisite of, or a product of salvation (the gospel), but for active believers the point is moot, cause we do indeed walk in obedience.

3. Be Baptized for the remission of sins.

Here's a conundrum. I don't believe that baptism is a prerequiste of salvation, but rather an early act of the saved soul. And yet, I have been baptized. So, if I'm wrong about the doctrine of baptism, but I've been properly baptized???

4. Have the Gift of the Holy Ghost given by the laying on of hands.

Most Christians would argue that this comes with salvation. Others would say that it is a subsequent grace, or gift, and that the recipient is already saved. But again, irregardless, active Christians have this.

That is basically.. the gospel of Jesus Christ.

So for those Christians who believe this.. they have the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is only one thing missing between what they believe.. and what we believe.

The authority. The Lord requires one of Authority to do the baptizing.. and the confirmation of the Gift of the Holy Ghost. And as you know.. the authority is what we call the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood.

My wife.. having lived in California.. searched for a church for 30 years. She has been to many and experienced many. She told me of one Christian church that had mothers baptizing children.. and children baptizing children.. and children baptizing adults. It is quite obvious they have moved the "authority" from the pastor.. to anyone.

This sounds like an extreme for of "the priesthood of all believers."

So if narrow is the gate.. and straight is the path.. you can see that if God really does require this Authority.. the gate just got a lot narrower for everyone.

IMHO, the gate is Jesus, not Authority, not church hierarchy. Jesus said, "I am THE way." So, the way is narrow, because it's one way. And yet, there's room for "whosoever will, may come."

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If we get into heaven-based on our works alone-what good is The Savior? There is no need for the atonement --if it is all about us.

I agree with you 100%! You can't get to heaven on works alone. But neither can you from grace alone. It takes both.

Let me try to explain.

1: There is the law.

2: The breaking of the law (sin) has a punishment assigned to it.

3: God lives in his kingdom

4: No unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of God.

Can we agree on these 4 points?

Lets say there was no Jesus to atone for our sins. What would happen?

1. You have sinned or broke the law.

2. You must be punished. There is a punishment for every law broken. That is Justice being served.

3. Because you sinned.. you are now "unclean"

4. So lets say, you die and you have been punished for your sins.. you served your time and the punishment you served satisfies the Justice System.. and you are released.

5. You are still "unclean" and therefore can not enter into the kingdom of God.

6. Punishment or serving Justice itself does not remove the "unclean" status from our "record" (Book of Life).

Does this make sense?

So without someone or something to remove the "unclean" status.. we can never enter the Kingdom of God.

So now there is Jesus Christ. He is the Son of God.. born of a virgin.. the only begotten of the Father. He comes to dwell in the form of man.. to be in the world but not of it. He commits no sin.. and is therefore "clean". Had he committed one sin.. just one.. he could not have been the sacrifice nor been able to atone for any sins. The sacrifice had to be pure and without blemish. Does this sound familiar? The animals that were sacrificed on the alter was in similitude of the sacrifice the Lord was going to make had to be Pure and without blemish.

Jesus Christ is the only man that can say he has not sinned. His mother was human, which allowed him to be mortal and die.. and his Father was God, he was given the power to keep from dying.. but if he did allow it.. to take it up again and then become immortal.

When Christ agreed to the sacrifice he would be making.. he was taking upon him the sins of the world (the punishment of each sin... from every person... that had been... or ever will be committed). The Justice System required that for every law broken.. a punishment was to be served. So Christ agreed that he would receive the punishment. And he would receive this punishment for everyone.

So what does he require of us?.. for him doing this part?

1. To believe on him.

2. To Repent, be baptized of water and fire (The Gift of the Holy Ghost).

3. To obey all his commandments. Hey.. if we were not expected to obey the commandments.. why did he give them to us?

So..That is it.

If we do this.. he will take the punishment for the sins we committed. In the Garden of Gethsemane is where he suffered this punishment. Now don't get excited.. we will talk about the cross and his sacrifice there in a minute. But in the Garden is were everything started.

Lets read in Luke 22:42-44

42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

43 And there appeared and angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: band his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

So we see that the process of the Atonement began in the Garden. So what of the Cross?

Well.. remember I said earlier that the serving of the punishment fulfills the Justice System.. but does not make a person "clean" in the sight of God.

Before the Crucifixion Christ fulfilled the punishment part... but what of the "unclean" part? This is what "by the Grace of God" means. When Christ.. who was "clean" was put to death on the cross, the spilling of his blood (clean blood) is what was needed to make the status of "unclean" on our record be made “clean”.

And to be “clean” is making the "unclean" be erased from the book of life as if it did not ever happen and the Lord remembers it no more. To fulfill all righteousness, Christ laid down his life, allowed himself to be sacrificed.. (he had the power to stop it).. he allowed it, and on the 3rd day he took his life back and returned to the Father. The sacrifice on the cross and in the Garden not only did he take on the Punishment that was to be delivered to all who sinned.. it also gave all of us the status of "clean". And being “clean”.. we can enter into the kingdom of God.

This is the saving grace. We have to do nothing for this. It is given to us freely. But the punishment we have to serve is conditional. For us to use the "PUNISHMENT ALREADY SERVED” card.. we must do something for that. It is by works. Again.. we must believe in Christ (being saved is to have a change of heart), Repent, be baptized with water and fire (the Gift of the Holy Ghost), and we must obey all the commandments, enduring to the end.

Well what happens if we don't repent? If you don't repent.. then you will take the punishment of your sins upon yourself. The Lord said:

D&C 19: 15-17

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink.

Understanding the Atonement is the beginning of understanding who Jesus Christ is and why he is the most important person in our lives.

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Here's a conundrum. I don't believe that baptism is a prerequiste of salvation, but rather an early act of the saved soul. And yet, I have been baptized. So, if I'm wrong about the doctrine of baptism, but I've been properly baptized???

Why it is Essential:

Suffer it to be so now to fulfill all righteousness, Matt. 3: 15.

Jesus came and was baptized of John, Mark 1: 9.

The Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God, being not baptized, Luke 7: 30.

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God, John 3: 5.

Repent, and be baptized every one of you, Acts 2: 38.

He commands all men that they must be baptized in his name, 2 Ne. 9: 23-24.

Men must follow Christ, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and endure to the end to be saved, 2 Ne. 31.

Christ’s doctrine is that men should believe and be baptized, 3 Ne. 11: 20-40.

They who believe not on your words and are not baptized in water in my name shall be damned, D&C 84: 74.

God explained to Adam why repentance and baptism are necessary, Moses 6: 52-60.

Proper authority:

If authority was not necessary.. why did Jesus go to John to be baptized? There were many Jewish leaders he passed by on his way to see John. If no authority was needed.. he could have used them. But John the Baptist was called of God. He had the authority. That same authority was passed on to the Apostles.

Remember this story?

Mark 11: 28-33

28 And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things?

29 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things.

30 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.

31 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him?

32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.

33 And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.

Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, Matt. 28: 19 (D&C 68: 8).

Limhi and many of his people were desirous to be baptized, but there was none in the land that had authority from God, Mosiah 21: 33.

I give unto you power that ye shall baptize, 3 Ne. 11: 19-21.

The Aaronic Priesthood holds the keys of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, D&C 13: 1.

They are they who are ordained of me to baptize in my name, D&C 18: 29.

John the Baptist gave Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery the authority to baptize, JS-H 1: 68-69.

IMHO, the gate is Jesus, not Authority, not church hierarchy. Jesus said, "I am THE way." So, the way is narrow, because it's one way. And yet, there's room for "whosoever will, may come."

Jesus is the way..

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the (a)way, the truth, and the life: no man ccometh unto the Father, but by me.

6a Ex. 18: 20.

20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.

Ex. 33: 13.

13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.

1 Sam. 12: 23 (16-23).

23 Moreover as for me, God forbid that I should sin against the Lord in ceasing to pray for you: but I will teach you the good and the right away:

Ps. 25: 4.

4 Shew me thy ways, O Lord; teach me thy paths.

John 10: 7 (1-15).

I think the Lord meant here.. is there is the right way. To follow him.. to do what he did.. To do what he says.. that is his way.

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The potential for confusion is huge because there is a sameness, yet a uniqueness to the doctrine of restoration. Jesus is central, still. Yet "precious truths" are said to be restored. So, let me see if I do understand. Is the meaning that "Christians do well to receive "the fulness" of the gospel, such as has been restored?"

I was reading Anthenasias' debate with a Lutheran brother on a different forum. He gave me a link a day or so ago. I think the issue comes down to whether a person is reading thru the glasses of another (learned) whose position he/she has decided to adopt; or their own view, fresh and unadulterated by tradition or "learning."

In Mat 25 it is clear, at least from my non-theological educated opinion, that although 10 were waiting and hoping to join the bridal processional, five were truly ready and prepared and 5 were not. Their shortcoming is not on account of lack of desire to be included, but rather their poor insight and understanding of what was required in order to achieve their goal. In other words, they found themselves lacking the means to achieve the end therof thru their own negligence and lack of effort since they saw the preparation of the rest nearby.

The second part is a bit more complex but it seems to point to the same concept. The Lord gives you a stewardship and expect you to utilize it, to labor diligently, to multiply the effort and produce as to make ready for his coming. But you must be willing to stretch yourself even risk in order to grow your lot. Then, some will be rejected on account of the fact that they did nothing with that which was given/offered to them, they did not aspire to reach beyond.

It is symbolic but the meaning seems clear, IMO.

Edited by Islander
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Help me if I am reading you wrong-so--Christians-if not LDS Christians-are not prepared for the Bridgegroom--and we-- are somehow different because we are not "valient" enough?

Again-where is the need for a Savior-if it is all about what we do-rather than what has been done for us by the love, suffering and atonement of Jesus?

I understand the "bride" to be a reference to be understood as The Church Universal.

Celestial and Terrestial terms are not understood by most outside the LDS Church.

Will Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindu's-also be in the same place as Christians-other than LDS Christians-which I assume-from your discussion-will have achieved a Celestial or existence closer to The Heavenly Father? Again-my question-why the need for Jesus?

I apologize for my very basic explanation. My wife was rushing me as we were heading out. Yes, Christ's church is the bride and He is the bridegroom. When I say valiant, I mean those Christians who do "everything" that they can do to be obedient to his commandments. We are not perfect. Because of Adam we are a fallen people. Christ's resurrection made possible our victory over physical death. His sacrifice also made it possible for us to overcome "spiritual death" or separation from God as we are now, if we exercise faith in Him, repent of our sins, are baptized (as Christ clearly taught we need to do) by water and by fire (Gift of Holy Ghost). Christ cannot be baptized for us. That is our token of obedience to His Law of Salvation. If we are not baptized then we cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. But who has the authority to baptize? This is the message of our church. Christ did set up a church with the authority to act in God's name, one who receives direct revelation as Isaiah, Peter, Joseph Smith, etc.

Our message is that there is a baptism that was ordained of Christ by his authority where we are buried with Him and risen again when we are immersed in water unto salvation. But we are still human and sin. This is where Christ's grace is sufficient for us where we fall short and where we need Jesus Christ. Because we have done all that he asks of us (filling our oil lamps parable) in preparation for His coming, though still imperfect, His grace through the Atonement makes up the difference. He purchases our sins and becomes our mediator with the Father where Christ's mercy satisfies the demands of justice. I hope this makes more sense.

Muslims, Jews and all of mankind will have the same opportunity. Hence missionary work and the literal gathering of the ten tribes of Israel today. Nobody will be judged before having had a chance to listen to this message. Part of our message is that much that was not included in the Bible has been included in the restoration through modern revelation and is complete. This is our doctrine.

Edited by skalenfehl
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