Separating Wheat from Tares - finding common ground with other Christians.

[skalenfehl]

Do you think we are nearing a separation of the righteous from the wicked, the wheat from the tares?

Do you think that many god-fearing people everywhere are as capable as Latter-day Saints of helping lift God's children on earth from Telestial to Terrestrial so they can survive the end times and live on into the Millennium or qualify for the first resurrection?

I actually read the first post!

The separation of wheat from tares has been happening since the restoration (D&C 4--the field is white already to harvest). It has been happening in stages and is going on today. I should note that just because someone is a Christian or a Muslim or a Buddhist, does not mean they are wheat. Wheat is found throughout the earth with peoples of all faiths and philosophies. Joseph Smith's pastor told him that his brother Alvin would never make it to heaven because Alvin wasn't baptized before he died. Later Joseph Smith had a vision where Alvin was in the Celestial Kingdom. All those who don't have a chance in this life to know and accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, who would have accepted it while in mortality will inherit it in the next life.

Tares are found throughout the world whether in the Mormon community, the Catholic, the Muslim, Jew, wherever. The separation is happening through the missionary work of the Lord's church today going forth preaching and baptizing exactly as Christ instructed his apostles to do in the New Testament. Just because there exists the same organization and authority today that existed when Christ established it in Israel 2,000 years ago, doesn't mean that its members are automatically qualified. They must still be converted, baptized, and endure to the end. But the authority to baptize and the "keys" of the priesthood (passed down from dispensation to dispensation since the time of Adam) to perform such ordinances are found only in Christ's restored church, the same church that He organized while in the flesh.

Edit: By the way, John the baptist did have the authority (after the order of Aaron) to baptize. Christ was baptized, by authorized baptism though He didn't need it, to fulfill all righteousness, hence becoming the "Way" for us to follow.

Edited July 9, 2008 by skalenfehl

[prisonchaplain]

Why it is Essential: Suffer it to be so now to fulfill all righteousness, Matt. 3: 15. Jesus came and was baptized of John, Mark 1: 9. The Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God, being not baptized, Luke 7: 30. Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God, John 3: 5. Repent, and be baptized every one of you, Acts 2: 38. He commands all men that they must be baptized in his name, 2 Ne. 9: 23-24. Men must follow Christ, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and endure to the end to be saved, 2 Ne. 31. Christ’s doctrine is that men should believe and be baptized, 3 Ne. 11: 20-40. They who believe not on your words and are not baptized in water in my name shall be damned, D&C 84: 74. God explained to Adam why repentance and baptism are necessary, Moses 6: 52-60.

Once again, there is no debate about the essential nature of water baptism, as a prerequisite to salvation, in your church. In the Protestant world, it remains a discussion. But again, faithful Christians, irregardless, will be baptized. So, the disagreement is largely moot.

Proper authority: If authority was not necessary.. why did Jesus go to John to be baptized?

Because John was ordained to prepare the way for Jesus, through the gospel of repentence. By submitting to water baptism, Jesus endorsed John's message and his ordination. He also demonstrated for us that baptism is foundational to Christian living.

What's interesting here, is that there were many Jewish leaders he passed by on his way to see John. If no authority was needed.. he could have used them. But John the Baptist was called of God. He had the authority. That same authority was passed on to the Apostles.

The Jewish leaders rejected Jesus' message, whereas John preached repentence and the coming Lamb of God. There is no discussion or description of authority in relation to John's baptism--but rather the meaning. "John's was a baptism of repentence," the Scriptures say.

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the (a)way, the truth, and the life: no man ccometh unto the Father, but by me.

6a Ex. 18: 20. 20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do. Ex. 33: 13. 13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.

1 Sam. 12: 23 (16-23). 23 Moreover as for me, God forbid that I should sin against the Lord in ceasing to pray for you: but I will teach you the good and the right away: Ps. 25: 4. 4 Shew me thy ways, O Lord; teach me thy paths. John 10: 7 (1-15).

I think the Lord meant here.. is there is the right way. To follow him.. to do what he did.. To do what he says.. that is his way.

I do not disagree with the need for followers of Jesus to do/say/be what He showed us. However, our behavior and speach are not the way. Jesus says "I am the way, I am the Truth, I am the life..." It's not us. It is Jesus. And, our speech and works are meaningless and powerless unless are empowered by the Spirit (Acts 1:8), and baptized in the love of the Spirit (1 Cor. 13:1-4)

If I were to summarize my understanding here, it would be:

1. Grace produces works, including water baptism.

2. Authority is in Christ, it is extended to all believers. Churches will recognize God's ordination of certain individuals to exercise specific gifts and offices in the church, and it will reserve the honor of spiritual intercession and discernment for "elders of the church," but all believers are commissioned to win souls and to build one another up in Christ.

[skalenfehl]

If I were to summarize my understanding here, it would be:

1. Grace produces works, including water baptism.

2. Authority is in Christ, it is extended to all believers. Churches will recognize God's ordination of certain individuals to exercise specific gifts and offices in the church, and it will reserve the honor of spiritual intercession and discernment for "elders of the church," but all believers are commissioned to win souls and to build one another up in Christ.

Thank you for sharing this. It helps me clearly understand your point of view. I definitely agree that Christ is the way, the only way.

[prisonchaplain]

In Mat 25 it is clear, at least from my non-theological educated opinion, that although 10 were waiting and hoping to join the bridal processional, five were truly ready and prepared and 5 were not. Their shortcoming is not on account of lack of desire to be included, but rather their poor insight and understanding of what was required in order to achieve their goal. In other words, they found themselves lacking the means to achieve the end therof thru their own negligence and lack of effort since they saw the preparation of the rest nearby.

The second part is a bit more complex but it seems to point to the same concept. The Lord gives you a stewardship and expect you to utilize it, to labor diligently, to multiply the effort and produce as to make ready for his coming. But you must be willing to stretch yourself even risk in order to grow your lot. Then, some will be rejected on account of the fact that they did nothing with that which was given/offered to them, they did not aspire to reach beyond.

It is symbolic but the meaning seems clear, IMO.

Was it lack of effort and labor that failed the five, or a lack of communion with God, and relationship with his Spirit? After all, oil is usually symbolic of the Holy Spirit.

[justamere10]

I actually read the first post!

The separation of wheat from tares has been happening since the restoration (D&C 4--the field is white already to harvest). It has been happening in stages and is going on today. I should note that just because someone is a Christian or a Muslim or a Buddhist, does not mean they are wheat. Wheat is found throughout the earth with peoples of all faiths and philosophies. Joseph Smith's pastor told him that his brother Alvin would never make it to heaven because Alvin wasn't baptized before he died. Later Joseph Smith had a vision where Alvin was in the Celestial Kingdom. All those who don't have a chance in this life to know and accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, who would have accepted it while in mortality will inherit it in the next life.

Tares are found throughout the world whether in the Mormon community, the Catholic, the Muslim, Jew, wherever. The separation is happening through the missionary work of the Lord's church today going forth preaching and baptizing exactly as Christ instructed his apostles to do in the New Testament. Just because there exists the same organization and authority today that existed when Christ established it in Israel 2,000 years ago, doesn't mean that its members are automatically qualified. They must still be converted, baptized, and endure to the end. But the authority to baptize and the "keys" of the priesthood (passed down from dispensation to dispensation since the time of Adam) to perform such ordinances are found only in Christ's restored church, the same church that He organized while in the flesh.

You are correct of course from the LDS point of view, which is always focussed on temple ordinances and the Celestial Kingdom.

But, with respect, I wonder if it is correct that only the Latter-day Saints are doing the harvesting and helping with the preparations and the sifting at this point in time?

What I am referring to is the coming Millennium which as you know is a Terrestrial state, not yet Celestial. The sifting at this time, I think, is to separate the wicked from the righteous, Telestial from Terrestrial. Those who find themselves among the tares (probably including unrepentant fornicators and adulterers) will not survive the fire of the Lord's coming, or likely the tribulations preceding it. Their physical bodies will be destroyed and their spirits will not be resurrected until after the Millennium if I remember correctly the way it goes.

So, I think it is most URGENT today to try to help people keep the basic commandments so they are not among the wicked who will be burned?? (Concurrent of course with what the Saints are doing regarding progress towards the Celestial.)

If so, ALL good-living people everywhere, (at least all righteous Christians), not just the Latter-day Saints, can help with the preparations for the leap to the Terrestrial Millennium i.e. help teach and encourage sinners to repent and keep God's commandments.

Where am I wrong on this?

[skalenfehl]

That definitely makes sense. I don't know of any Christian faiths that do not preach the gospel of Christ according to their understanding to bring as many souls unto Christ as possible. I hope all Christian churches are also as vigilant in their doctrine about being chaste. The parable of the 10 virgins is applicable to all mankind regardless of their religious affiliation.

[Islander]

Was it lack of effort and labor that failed the five, or a lack of communion with God, and relationship with his Spirit? After all, oil is usually symbolic of the Holy Spirit.

Hummm. That is a real tricky interpretation. There is a real art and method to being able to discern where the symbolism ends and the "meat and potatoes" of the allegory and/or parable begins. I think it is clear that the parable itself is allegorical but the situation is meant to teach something and not so deep and figurative that it gets lost.

I suggest that when the Savior says that "They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them" he is driving the reader/listener to actually realize that they "acted" differently. 5 Did something the other 5 did NOT. 5 were ready and vigilant and 5 were not. So when the time came they were left out, unable to be included.

11."Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not."

I think the Savior is using a fairly common practice to illustrate a principle and the Hebrews of the 1st century AD were not reading meaning into the oil but rather the fact that the 5 were negligent, unprepared, not ready. They wanted to be there so there is no lack of desire. They waited overnight, they even went to get the oil after they realized their lacking but much to no avail. Too lated.

[justamere10]

That definitely makes sense. I don't know of any Christian faiths that do not preach the gospel of Christ according to their understanding to bring as many souls unto Christ as possible. I hope all Christian churches are also as vigilant in their doctrine about being chaste. The parable of the 10 virgins is applicable to all mankind regardless of their religious affiliation.

Do you agree then with my thinking that there is a whole lot of common ground among Christians of all denominations (including LDS) for the most urgent work that needs to be done today? i.e. to cry repentance and teach the Lord's basic commandments to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people to help all people on earth survive on the Lord's right hand the possibly imminent days of turmoil and sifting?

That's the focus of my new ecumenical Christian discussion board, to discuss and encourage cyber missionaries from all denominations to teach repentance and truths from Matthew chapter 5, the Beatitudes. I think most Christians would be ok with that even though we all have differing viewpoints on many other aspects of the gospel.

Edited July 13, 2008 by VisionOfLehi
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[skalenfehl]

Absolutely. There is a lot of common ground. All faiths have light (Christ). Put them all together in the same room, I think the truth can easily be discovered as long as there is no contention about who's light bulb is brighter. But with no more darkness in the room, there can be no ignorance.

[abqfriend]

I think we lost the meaning or request of the initial post-finding common ground with each other. Is there any? -if so-what is it?

What common things do we share-and how can we find common ground to move forward in areas upon which we agree?

-Carol

[skalenfehl]

Thank you abq. I believe some of the most important commonalities is scripture study and prayer. Developing a close relationship with our Father in Heaven is key. It opens the door to personal revelation and also instills a deep respect for friends of other faiths and being able to discuss our beliefs and understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[WANDERER]

And then getting your tares back again later...is inevitable...from what I understand. Therefore there isn't really any point to separating them.

[justamere10]

And then getting your tares back again later...is inevitable...from what I understand. Therefore there isn't really any point to separating them.

There will always be sin in a "Telestial" world such as this one where temptations and tempters with objectives abound. The separation is to line up those who are righteous enough to survive the leap to a "Terrestrial" Millennial state where Satan and his dark forces are bound and no longer able to operate.

There will be no tares on the earth during the Millennium, as I understand it.

If you think of Millennial earth as a university, then it's easy to understand Sifting Time as entrance exams. You either pass and get enrolled, or fail and are not allowed on campus...

[WANDERER]

But have to do the rather tough bridging course...if you make that. So I guess any preliminary work with the tares might help out a little.

[justamere10]

It is my opinion that ALL good people everywhere, not just LDS, can help with the work of crying repentance and teaching and encouraging the keeping of the basic commandments that will hopefully sift people to the right hand of the Lord from a state of "Telestial" wickedness to a state of "Terrestrial" righteousness.

I am personally very concerned about the sins of fornication and adultery and things like it that I think may be dragging down a lot of people who would otherwise sift to the Lord's right hand. I think all good people should be strongly warning about that, and doing what they can to protect the traditional family.

But that's just how I'm seeing it, our nation seems to be accepting immorality as the norm.

[prospectmom]

I think you should concentrate on the positive and follow Christ Like actions and not Old Testament fire and brimstone preaching....... Be a positive example............... Do I accept the world as it is no but I do try to be a positive part of it .....

[WANDERER]

Jesus and the woman who was taken in the act of adultery:

10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

12Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

So simple: Neither do I condemn thee. Go and sin no more.

There is the template of what to do about it. Zero accusation, zero judgement and no warning...just a commandment.

Edited July 10, 2008 by WANDERER

[prospectmom]

Thank You Wanderer I was thinking about that