Need for advice/reassurance in dealing with an ex

[candyprpl]

I think you two really do agree with one another you're just getting caught up on phrasing.

I think we'd all agree that judging people is the place of the Lord, not us.

As for their actions, I think we'd also agree that we use discernment to determine whether or not those actions are in keeping with God's Will and whether or not they would be appropriate to emulate. One uses their good judgment as well as promptings from the Spirit to do this.

In the case of my ex and her actions, I need to make clear to my kids what's acceptable and what's not, but I need to do it by walking that fine line between explaining to them that the actions are wrong, and badmouthing their mother. Mostly by emphasizing that their mom isn't being malicious or deliberately selfish, she's just lonely and/or feeling insecure and is trying to cope. A better way to cope would have been to talk to her Ward leadership and pray a LOT but we do have freewill and as humans we don't always use it to the best result. She will have to find her own way and that it's my kids' job, as people who love her, to be there and be supportive of her should she decide to return to the light.

Totally agree with you. It sounds to me like you are doing a great job. I've already said in a previous post -- it is a fine line to walk -- to judge the action and not the person. But it's important for the kids to know that not living gospel standards will not bring happiness only eternal distruction.

I think the saddest thing to deal with is her attitude towards you and how she's trying to make the kids feel about you. What's your relationship with her parents like? Does she have a good relationship with her mother? If yes, maybe you could talk to them about these concerns and they good intervene a little. Just a thought.

[unixknight]

I'd say generally her relationship with the parents is good, although I would assume it's been strained with all the recent goings on. I really don't know. I do know that they seemed very pleased when I called them to ask that they take the kids with them to church.

In any case, I seriously doubt they'd intervene directly beyond whatever things they may have already said or done to try and get her back on the path.

[RadioactiveWolfboy]

Your situation sounds like a slight variation of mine. My wife and I live the Gospel as best we can. My ex does not. It's a constant tug of war or teeter toter. The best advice I have been given is to take custody of the kids, or teach them as best you can while you have them. My ex just told my 17 year old daughter that her boyfriend could move in. I was not happy with that. I ended up telling my daughter that I don't agree or support her doing so, but that I love her and my phone is always on. Being a divorced parent is hard. I don't wish it on anyone. My prayers are with you.

Rich

[unixknight]

I've made arrangements to have each of the kids over for a week for plenty of one on one time with me. I plan to emphasize these things with them heavily.

[ruthiechan]

How are things going?

[unixknight]

Much better... Last weekend I sat down with my sons and explained to them a few things that previously, I felt they were too young to know.

Mind you, my ex had been threatening to tell them all sorts of bad things about me from when we were married, because she feels that our kids put me up on a pedestal and do nothing but criticize her. I tried to explain to her that if she's constantly badmouthing me, then naturally they're going to feel like they're being put in a position where they need to defend me. I told her it's not that the kids think I'm perfect, it's that I acknowledge my flaws and they know I'm working to improve myself. They respect that about me.

Well anyway I decided it was time that I sat the boys down and told them some things about myself that my ex had been threatening to reveal to them. Their reaction? The younger son said "That's it?!?!?" and the older son said "Yeah, mom told me a couple years ago but her version was a lot different."

I didn't know whether to feel relieved or outraged, so I felt both. So she'd broken our agreement, eh? So she decided to try and vilify me long ago and continued to offer me the illusion that she'd been faithful to our agreement?

And yet, it obviously did her no good, and gained her no standing in their eyes. They're eager to go to church with me when they're at my home, and have been doing their best to spend as much time with me as possible. If this must be a confrontation, then I'm winning. I wish it weren't, but I feel a lot better about it now than I did before.

[unixknight]

Well just when it seemed things were settling down I find myself once again coming here for some feedback from the wise minds of lds.net

It's war, apparently.

Outraged that my sons not only know about my faults but STILL continue to think highly of me, my ex is now embellishing the stories more and more, even dragging my current wife into her narrative. A quote, from her to my 13 year old son: "How can you not hate him after knowing all this?"

She WANTS them to hate me.

So a couple of weeks ago I went through my DVD collection and got rid of the ones that contained nudity. I'm trying to make my home a more spiritual place and they were not a part of it. Away went Conan, Excalibur, Starship Troopers, etc.

My kids thought it was a good move. They told their mom about it in conversation. A few nights later I get a phone call from her at 10:30 at night demanding to know why I REALLY got rid of those movies, accusing me now of doing it just to make her look bad... She insists that I'm lying when I give my real reason, and calls me a religious zealot and accuses me of having our boys too uptight. (Buh? She's supposed to be a church member... This is too uptight???)

I'm scared now, guys. This is the most irrational thing I've ever heard form her and I"m beginning to think there are some real emotional issues involved here. That makes her unpredictable and it makes me worried.

I have been praying for her, but I can't help but be afraid of what's next...

[checkerboy]

Have you been documenting these things? Because if so you may have pretty good ground to get a custody change. I would definitely keep track of the things said and keep them all in a journal or notebook. Then just hand it to the judge.

[countrygirl66]

hi unixknight,

Just wanted to say thanks for not making your kids feel like if they love their mom they are betraying you. Sounds like that is where she may be putting them. I was raised in a messy situation to say the least and as an adult I look back and so appreciate those adults who were the adult and didn't leave me in the middle. It sounds like your trying to make your house a home for your kids where they get to be the kids. Being honest with them is great! Don't know how many times I had about 50 percent of the info on a situation but because I was a kid would never ask for the rest. It just left me scared and confused. My hats off to you for being the dad and letting you know that they will be loved by you no matter what happens between you and ex.

[unixknight]

Thanks countrygirl66... I like to think I'm getting at least that part right because my own parents divorced when I was 12-ish and I was made a pawn. In my case, my mom absolutely could not shut up about what a horrible man my father was, and how he had basically done every bad thing a husband can possibly do to a wife short of killing her. She made sure I resented my dad, and got sole custody and it was many months before I saw him again.

But later I began to realize, as I matured, that my dad was not the man mom was making him out to be. He'd made mistakes, sure, but none of that involved me. It was between them and now, as I look back on it, I find myself resenting my mother for basically turning me into a pawn. She wanted to hurt my father, and I was the means by which she did it. She fought for custody of me as if my father were on the brink of hurting me or stealing me away to South America, which is where he's from.

My father is not that kind of man, and never was. Even now I feel guilt that I was so gullible as to listen to my mother's distorted version of things and swallow it all hook, line and sinker. As I look back I seldom heard my dad say bad things about my mom, and I remember my mom saying very little else besides bad things about my dad. At first I thought it was because dad was at fault and mom wasn't, but later I began to realize the truth, which was that my dad simply handled it all with greater strength and character.

And yet my mom isn't a bad person either. She comes form a time and a culture and has the mentality where love is expressed by loyalty. I had learned that the most effective way to tell mom "I love you" was to love ONLY her and not my dad, whom she hated so much for so long. It's like the term "neutral" doesn't exist for her.

So when the time came for my divorce I absolutely refused to use my kids as pawns, even though it cost me having them live with me. Legally, we have joint custody but she has physical custody. I felt by conceding that part it would be easier on the kids, although it hurts me every time our weekend visits are over and they go back home, 100 miles away.

Coincidentally, my dad is coming in to visit from South America tomorrow. I can't wait to see him again and have yet another opportunity to thank him for setting the right example under the most difficult of circumstances.

[melissar]

I just wanted to say that it sounds like you are doing an awesome job with your kids.

[unixknight]

Thanks, melissar... But I think I may have caused more harm than good.

I called a little meeting between myself, my ex, and our 2 sons on Friday night. I wanted to get this stuff out in the open so we could deal with it. I told her if she's still got bad feelings from our divorce that she needed to get out of her system, then fine. We could go talk somewhere and she can scream at me, call me names, hit me, whatever. Just not in front of the kids because this hurts them. The boys, delighted at the opportunity to get all this out in the open, told her the same thing. They love me despite the faults I have, and don't need to hear her complain about me 24/7. I did my best to keep their feelings at the front of this discussion but all she wanted to talk about was how unfair it was that they put me on a pedestal and criticized her.

This isn't about what's fair. And the fact is, they don't put me on a pedestal, anyway. When I would occasionally slip and say something mean about their mother, they'd call me out on it just as fast. The difference is I try not to do it and I apologize to them when I do, so no wonder they're defensive of me when their mom gets off on yet another of her tirades about me. They know my faults and failures, but they respect me for being honest about them and for improving myself. All their mother can do is make excuses for her mistakes or find scapegoats. Our kids aren't stupid. They see it for what it is.

Know what she said? Wanna guess?

She said (and I swear she said this) "What am I supposed to do? Suck it up and be the grownup?"

...

YES! That's what you do! You be an adult and be there for the kids who need you to be there for them because divorce is a traumatic and painful experience and as their parents it's our job to minimize the pain as much as we can.

All she can do is think about herself and how she feels and how she, even after all this time, is hurting.

Mind you, my kids spent a lot of time in this conversation trying to reassure her that they love her and respect her and think well of her, etc. I suspected her problem was that she felt unappreciated and I had suggested they do this.

She blew them off. She wants people to feel sorry for her and play the victim, and the kids, by trying to show her love and kindness, were getting in the way.

Toward the end of the conversation I lost my temper. My older son was trying to express that he's not bothered if she complains when I legitimately screw something up (like being late taking them back to her place and not calling) but when she goes on and on and on and on and on about it, it hurts him. Her response: "Well I guess I'm just not allowed to get mad at anything and your father never does any wrong..." That's when I got mad... Because essentially, she just told him that his feelings don't mean anything to her and that all that's important is how she feels about it. I shouted at her about what I thought of that. Took about 2 minutes. I told her how sick I am of her disregarding their feelings when those feelings are supposed to be priority #1. I was tired of her sending the message that they have to accommodate her instead of her bing a parent to them. I told her she's damaging those boys.

She stormed out.

My younger son went after her to try and calm her down but he was unsuccessful.

So it was a complete disaster and I no longer believe it will be possible to fix it. Apparently she and her boyfriend even joke around about my weight or who would win in a fight between myself and him. That strikes me as pathologically juvenile. I'm completely out of ideas so I've told the kids to just pray about this and hopefully the Lord can reach her.

'cause we can't.

[checkerboy]

My ex is a 30 year old teenager so I know exactly how this scenario played out. I have had similar conversations. You are right in turning it over to the Lord because no one else will be able to reach her. Just be the best person you can be for you kids sake. They already can see through her. Just make sure they know that you still care about your relationship with their mother even if there is nothing you can do about it.

[unixknight]

My ex is a 30 year old teenager so I know exactly how this scenario played out. I have had similar conversations. You are right in turning it over to the Lord because no one else will be able to reach her. Just be the best person you can be for you kids sake. They already can see through her. Just make sure they know that you still care about your relationship with their mother even if there is nothing you can do about it.

I will. and to add insult to injury I realized this afternoon that I've been accidentally underpaying child support by about $80 a month for the last year... and she hasn't noticed, either. I'm trying to figure out the best way to come forward with that without letting her turn it into another excuse to bash me in front of the kids.

[unixknight]

Well I hope I have a resolution in place.

I called her last night and told her what I'd found regarding the error in child support. I told her effective immediately I'll start increasing the amount to where it was supposed to be and that I'd come up with some kind of payment schedule to get caught up for the past.

But I also used this opportunity to impose a condition:

The bashing will end. Now. If my kids report to me that the bashing has resumed, the 'catch up' payments will cease immediately and we can take it to court. Sure, I'll lose (which is the plan anyway) but it will give me and the kids the chance to tell the judge about the bashing, which may be considered child abuse in some jurisdictions.

She agreed to those terms. Now I can only hope she uncharacteristically holds to the agreement.

[Iggy]

unixknight, I have read most of the posts in this thread and I am alarmed at the things your ex has said and done.

In my unprofessional opinion she appears to be quite paranoid. She has quite an inferiority complex and she is quite inventive as to who is at fault. Is she seeing a therapist? Counselor/ shrink??? She really should. Perhaps her parents can encourage her to see one, before she gets dangerous.

Personally I think you are doing a stand up job in raising your children. If it was me, I would get her agreements in writing. Then when she fails to comply, that is more fuel to add to your gaining custody of your children.

Personally - I think you should fight for custody of your children. You have an 8 year old daughter and a teen son, how old is the other boy? Your ex is doing a lot of damage emotionally to your children. Telling an 8 year old that an infant is her competition- that is sick.

unixknight, I will keep you and your loved ones in my prayers- I would add you to my temples prayer roll, buy I don't have names.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Iggy

[unixknight]

Thanks very much!

I did suggest to her at one point that she see a professional but that suggestion was dismissed. In fact, I had even suggested it at one point during our marriage and her refusal to do it was one of the factors in the divorce itself, from my end.

My boys are 13 and 15, and my older daughter is 9. I've made sure to remind her that her new baby sister is not, in any way, shape or form, competition, and I make an extra effort to giver her attention when she's visiting us so that she never feels like she's been replaced. I think it's working because she loves the baby and hangs out with her a lot. If there's any resentment, I can't tell.

Thanks for your prayers... That is always the very best assistance anyone can offer and I appreciate it.

I wonder if there's any restriction on putting a name on the temple prayer roll by username... Heavenly Father knows who it is.... hmmmm....

I'm Chris :)

[unixknight]

I know that it's generally frowned upon to resurrect an old thread, but I felt it was appropriate in this case because this way the backstory is conveniently right here.

Relations between myself and my ex are at an all time low, but now that our oldest (16) is driving I rarely have to interact with her, since the kids transport themselves to and from my home.

The problem is that she is now actively against the church, her new husband is actively against the church, and are now actively discouraging my kids from attending church by scheduling family activities on Sundays whenever possible, and using guilt to make sure all the kids participate.

One morning, after I'd sent my ex an E-mail to invite her to return to church and telling her that our friends and family are saddened to see the changes in her, her husband called me to accuse me of warping the kids' minds by teaching them LDS values, and to threaten to call my job to try and get me fired if I ever sent such an E-mail again. He also attempted to goad me by telling me my children preferred his company to mine.

Meanwhile, my kids tell me their home life is more uncomfortable than ever. The new stepfather seems to go out of his way to initiate confrontations with my kids. In a recent argument with my 14-year-old, my son was called a "F***ing punk kid." (What did my son do to provoke such a statement? he had the audacity to inform this man that the video game machine was causing the circuit breaker to trip, and wanted to shut it off.) Mom refuses to interfere because she "doesn't want to deal with it."

I'm very concerned that things will escalate to the point of physical abuse.

Meanwhile, this man offers Playboy magazines to my sons. (14 and 16 years old.)

Not enough porn exposure? How about the fact that now his mentally handicapped father watches porn in his room with the volume so loud my 14 year old can hear it clearly through the wall. He also leaves his bedroom window open and I've heard of my 10 year old daughter and her stepsister peeking in through it.

I'm literally on the brink of skipping the civil suit and going straight to the police. I promised my sons I would not initiate such an action unless they asked me to (as I don't want to discourage them from telling me what's happening up there) but I also warned them that at some point unilateral action by me could become necessary.

Thoughts?

[allredcon]

As a child of divorce (I was 12 when my parents split up) nothing my parents did seemed to be right in my eyes. I'm jealous that your children can have such trust in you. I wish I could have done the same. What I have learned though is that, even though I hated the things that happened, meaning the lawsuits cases lawyers and bull crap that went along with it, it was for my own good. I'm not a therapist, or a professional. But from my point of view, I hated it while my parent was "making" me do things, like attend church, visits, etc. But I am forever grateful because now I see what that parent was keeping me away from. Now, both of my parents are active in the church as well as their spouses. It's great.

In summary; they may be angry and it may cause them some stress to see you and their mother fight. But I think that one day when they're a little older, they'll understand that you were trying to protect them and that you were doing the best you could at the time with the knowledge that you had. It's the big picture that matters. If you step back, you'll notice that it's not going to blow up as big as you think.

[FairChild]

I would either talk to my lawyer about the porn or the PD. Did your children have a nuetral party during the divorce that worked for their interest? If so, report to them. I worry because if there is porn being played that loudly in the house, while knowing the kids are in the house, he would be grooming the children for his own personal use. Also the department of human services might want to know. If you have to, make a report, don't give your name. Please report this. It's too important not to. There are some very mentally ill people in that house. Keep a detailed journal with time, date and place constantly going. It will help.

[Just_A_Guy]

Three main things here.

1. Start documenting everything.

2. Talk to a lawyer about a) a protective order against the new husband (they're very hard to obtain, but you should at least explore the possibility); and b) ask whether your divorce decree contains anything about the kids' religious instruction and, if it doesn't, ask about getting your decree modified. The key in most states is "the best interests of the children"--you can't make your ex and her husband take the kids to church, but you may be able to get an injunction against their hampering the kids' religious development.

3. Also (and I hate to bring this up), have your sons be very, very careful around the new husband and not be alone with him if they can at all avoid it. When grown men offer porn to boys, often it isn't just a desire to "share the goods".

Good luck.

[unixknight]

I really, really wish I could just talk to my ex about these things. She absolutely will not listen. I suspect it's because she's well aware but copes with it by turning the other way, and will brook no attempt by me to get her to deal with it.

They all live in a house owned and co-occupied by her parents, who are active LDS. Part of me wants to try to talk to them about this but I realize that could cause problems for me later if I wind up taking the legal route.

[FairChild]

Have you talked to your children about a safety plan? It would be good to have a talk about good and bad touching as well as the appropriate things to do in case something bad happens. Do they a way to contact you in case of emergency? Who else could they contact in case of emergency? What is available at school as a means of counseling and adults to talk with? A safety plan would be good, even if there would be no worry about what goes on in Mama's house. FC

[FairChild]

It might be helpful to get as many others as possible to be documenting what they see as well. Good luck. FC

[unixknight]

Have you talked to your children about a safety plan?

Yes. They're to call me and 911.

It would be good to have a talk about good and bad touching as well as the appropriate things to do in case something bad happens. Do they a way to contact you in case of emergency?

Yes, they each have a cell phone of their own, and would support each other were one taken away.

Who else could they contact in case of emergency?

My mother.

What is available at school as a means of counseling and adults to talk with?

Good question.

A safety plan would be good, even if there would be no worry about what goes on in Mama's house. FC

Agreed. Thanks.