A question about disagreeing with upper members of the church.

[Moksha]

When disagreeing with church leaders, I think it's important to humble yourself and pray about it and "lean not unto thine own understanding". :) For instance, a lot of people had a bad reaction to the counsel not to wear more than one pair of earrings, but I wonder if they prayed about it to ask if the Lord had a good reason for this?

I disagree. Sometimes things cross over into areas clearly expressing personal preference. My own understanding suggests that earring fashions in not part of the a Heavenly concern. Of course you are right that such a matter should be pondered to sift for truth. Prayer and meditation can help.

Taking an unquestioning and unreasoned approach to religion is reducing it to superstitious cultism, in which a Divine Being micromanages facial decorations.

Please forgive me if this response sounds harsh. I really want it to be a loving response instead.

:)

[kona0197]

When disagreeing with church leaders, I think it's important to humble yourself and pray about it and "lean not unto thine own understanding". :) For instance, a lot of people had a bad reaction to the counsel not to wear more than one pair of earrings, but I wonder if they prayed about it to ask if the Lord had a good reason for this?

I wonder what they would say to me because I'm a guy and I wear earrings...

[MarginOfError]

i'm A Guy And I Wear Earrings...

Infidel!

[PapilioMemnon]

When disagreeing with church leaders, I think it's important to humble yourself and pray about it and "lean not unto thine own understanding". :) For instance, a lot of people had a bad reaction to the counsel not to wear more than one pair of earrings, but I wonder if they prayed about it to ask if the Lord had a good reason for this?

It reminds me of what Elder Bednar said in one of his talks (If I'm not mistaking, "Quick to Observe"). He gave an example, about the earrings issue between a guy and a girl... and since the girl didn't "heed" the counsel, the guy stopped seeing her. So he, then, continued... "The earrings wasn't the issue..."

I love the teachings of our leaders!!!

[Guest HEthePrimate]

Ultimately, my question is this and I would appreciate an open and honest opinion: Would you say that any disagreement with the prophet is derogatory?

Honestly disagreeing with someone and being derogatory towards them are two different things. It is quite possible to respectfully disagree with a person.

I would say it could be dangerous, as I am certainly not as wise as the likes of President Monson or President Uchtdorf. Is any disagreement necessarily a bad thing?

Why wouldn't you be as wise as President Monson or President Uchtdorf? I'm not saying they aren't wise, but having a position of authority does not automatically make a person wise, nor does it mean that everybody else is less wise.

Would you agree that President Monson is in a position of greater authority than, say, Elder Perry? Yet the Apostles and First Presidency regularly disagree among themselves and will not move forward on an important matter until all are in unanimous agreement. Even if it's the newest apostle with the least seniority who's "holding things up," they won't act until he is persuaded.

If it's good enough for them...

HEP

[california_ave]

I had four mission presidents, in this order: excellent, poor, mediocre, and good. Going from excellent to poor was difficult, but I tried to give the poor guy the same respect as others. I tried to honor his role as mission president and not focus on him. I disagreed with him, but I still followed his council--at least the logical part.

[Fiannan]

It reminds me of what Elder Bednar said in one of his talks (If I'm not mistaking, "Quick to Observe"). He gave an example, about the earrings issue between a guy and a girl... and since the girl didn't "heed" the counsel, the guy stopped seeing her. So he, then, continued... "The earrings wasn't the issue..."

I love the teachings of our leaders!!!

Yeah, just after I read that article I went to the temple and one of the women serving there in an important role had a bunch of earrings in her ears. I doubt if it was the same woman in the talk since she was at least in her early 60s though.

I guess the way I see the earring issue is how I see the white shirt thing. It is advice based on some good reasoning but is certainly not something to get all hung up about. Maybe I am wrong here and it is a huge concern but at this point I have yet to get any inspiration on this except for my wife bugging me to wear a white shirt for Church meetings. Yet I do not bug her for having multiple earrings.

[MorningStar]

I disagree. Sometimes things cross over into areas clearly expressing personal preference. My own understanding suggests that earring fashions in not part of the a Heavenly concern. Of course you are right that such a matter should be pondered to sift for truth. Prayer and meditation can help.

Taking an unquestioning and unreasoned approach to religion is reducing it to superstitious cultism, in which a Divine Being micromanages facial decorations.

Please forgive me if this response sounds harsh. I really want it to be a loving response instead.

:)

I'm not saying not to question it, but not to blow it off either because of personal beliefs you already have about it - to ask Heavenly Father the reason. It could be for missionary reasons, health reasons, respecting one's body as a temple, avoiding wearing costly apparel, or just a plain old test to see how the Saints will react to see if we're prepared for bigger things. Who knows? On the surface, I can see how someone would think, "Oh, it's just earrings!" but there might be something deeper going on there. If we're not willing to do something simple like remove earrings, how could we be expected to handle real challenges thrown our way? If a person is that attached to their earrings, they might want to evaluate their priorities. I bet Abraham would've been thrilled to have a simple request such as "Remove your earrings" rather than "Go get circumcized". :)

[jimuk]

I am not a great one with words but i do know that without our church leaders there would not be a church, these guys are called to guide us by heavenly father, these same guys are capable of mistakes the same as the rest of us.

We should give them the support they give us, have faith in them the same as they have faith in us, they will be answerable for their own mistakes the same way that we will.

[VisionOfLehi]

If you don't see them fit to do their duty as called of God, or don't believe they are, simply don't sustain them.

[Suzie]

I just saw this thread, hope isnt too old to bring it alive again. :)

I am trying to understand is: If we believe the prophets are not infallible then why is it "dangerous" to question their counsel?

[Hemidakota]

Recently, there was a thread that was closed that had a member disagree with one of the presidents. In this thread, he was warned that it was derogatory. In defense of the warning, I would say that derogatory is a very subjective thing:

Derogatory means, 'Detracting from the character or standing of someone' or 'Expressive of a low opinion'. I'm not certain the poster was expressing a low opinion so much as disagreeing with him.

I think it's important to love and respect the leaders, but I can promise that they want to be accountable.

I'm going to quote Elder Erasmus Snow here from the April 1880 General Conference:

And it becomes us to lay to heart the word spoken, and it should begin with the Apostles, Presidents of Stakes, Bishops, the Presidents of Quorums, and heads of families and run through all the organizations of society, and the spirit of repentance, of reformation and of purification should flow in our midst, flow through the people in all our organizations until every man, woman and child shall feel that the Spirit of God rests upon them; we should put away evil, and endeavor to overcome the world, to withstand the influences of the hosts of hell, to resist the example of evil minded persons, to resist temptations of pride and vanity, and cease to be hypocritical; in other words, to be honest before God and one another, for his eye is upon us. Our ways are openly known unto him.

- End quote. He's exhorting everyone - Because everyone needs to be exhorted. If there is only one perfect person, then it means that -everyone(Even Presidents of the church) will make mistakes. I will agree that in doctrine, we will not be led astray, but we must be prepared to question respectfully(Like we would any other) when we feel a mistake has been made.

Ultimately, my question is this and I would appreciate an open and honest opinion: Would you say that any disagreement with the prophet is derogatory? I would say it could be dangerous, as I am certainly not as wise as the likes of President Monson or President Uchtdorf. Is any disagreement necessarily a bad thing?

Even in the Celestial Kingdom, we still can disagree but it is how we approach it and what is kept in the inner vessel [the spirit or heart].

[hordak]

I just saw this thread, hope isnt too old to bring it alive again. :)

I am trying to understand is: If we believe the prophets are not infallible then why is it "dangerous" to question their counsel?

It's not (IMO). I have heard many say, i'm sure it was brought up on this thread, that if the follow everything and it turns out the council was wrong it will be on "their (the Prophet) head" and the member will be a ok. Personally i don't agree with this idea. It is too reminiscent of "just following orders" to me. It also negates one of the members of the Godhead (the Holy Ghost) and one of the most important gospel principles, Personal revelation. I think it all comes down to intent.

Prophet says we should not work on Sunday doesn't mean brother Jones should quit his job, that makes him work on Sunday. It means brother Jones should pray and seek the best thing for his family.That people seeking employment should consider this.

I would say there is nothing wrong with questioning. The danger comes from not seeking confirmation and either not following it out of spite ("it's only council why follow it") or following it blindly (and judging others based on it)("it was said at GC, anyone who doesn't do it is a sinner")

Also many say if you can't give in on the little stuff how can you be ready for the big stuff. I say getting revelation on the little stuff prepares you for revelation on the big stuff.

[MisterT]

I'm pretty.. independant. I don't do anything I don't want to do. Nobody, ever, has made me do something; I always had to want to.

The hardest lesson I've ever learned, and am still learning, is to submit to the opinions and council of others.

I find it particularily hard to take council from someone I've never met, who doesn't know me, and likely never will.

But I'm trying to learn.

[Suzie]

It's not (IMO). I have heard many say, i'm sure it was brought up on this thread, that if the follow everything and it turns out the council was wrong it will be on "their (the Prophet) head" and the member will be a ok. Personally i don't agree with this idea. It is too reminiscent of "just following orders" to me. It also negates one of the members of the Godhead (the Holy Ghost) and one of the most important gospel principles, Personal revelation. I think it all comes down to intent.

I think your opinion pretty much falls in line with what President Joseph F. Smith said:

We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them [even] if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told do by their presidents they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves. (Joseph F. Smith Millennial Star, Vol 14, Number 38, pages 593-595)

I think for every counsel we receive, we should pray about it and receive confirmation IMHO.

[marts1]

I pretty sure God would not hold you accountable for obeying a wrong council from a priesthood leader.

I'm also pretty sure God would be more pleased if you detected an error and corrected it.

[crazypotato]

I am surprised there is even a thread about this and that there are so many people who struggle with this.

Even the elect can be deceived and Pres Monson will not deceive us. If you don't believe this then I hope you have no temple recommend. Not that I am perfect, but I do have a testimony.

[normaje]

I would be too afraid of being struck by lightning if I even thought to disagree.

[Moksha]

I would be too afraid of being struck by lightning if I even thought to disagree.

Especially during a thunderstorm while you are touching a steel flagpole.

[Suzie]

I would be too afraid of being struck by lightning if I even thought to disagree.

lol

Obedience by fear? Yikes.

[marts1]

lol

Obedience by fear? Yikes.

I'll take it any which way but loose. :)

[hordak]

I pretty sure God would not hold you accountable for obeying a wrong council from a priesthood leader.

I'm also pretty sure God would be more pleased if you detected an error and corrected it.

I don't think there is error in council. It isn't right or wrong, it just is. On another thread we have been discussing the council not to date outside your race, culture or religion. Some are successful in marriage following this council and others find success not following it.

One who gets confirmation that it isn't right for them is no more wrong or right then one who receive confirmation that is is right for them.

Them being the important part. Too often i fear we forget that we are known by God as individuals and as such council might be different children. (same way it is with our own children). This is why we are given council and not commandments on many issues.IMO

[marts1]

I'm referring to any priesthood leader, and yes you do get wrong council on occasion.

[marts1]

I'm using the word council as advice, and I'm also speaking of any priesthood leader.

[crazypotato]

Obedience by fear?

I fear God and also I love God. I certainly wouldn't want his wrath.