Why people leave the church

[StallionMcBeastly]

I recently listened to a podcast about why people leave the church and it got me thinking.

In the podcast the man stated that people often leave the church because they come across facts about the church's past and Joseph Smith that they have never heard about, and it disturbs them. They feel lied to, they see a cover up, and it weakens their testimony.

I think it would be very wise for the church to often discuss the controversial issues of the past, and not be so private about them. What happened happened, and we can't change it by ignoring it.

I would like members of this forum to state a controversial topic from the churches past, and then state how you have dealt with it and or explain why it occurred and how it should not weaken our testimony. I think this would greatly help those who are struggling with the church.

I hope you all understand what I mean. I feel a lot of people leave the church because they stumble upon controversial issues from the churches past or mistakes recent prophets had made, and they have never heard of these things before so their whole world gets flipped upside down.

I think if the church was more open to discussing these issues the number of inactive members would decrease.

Thank you

[hordak]

No double standards. I can't figure out why people can be "turned off" by something like polygamy for example while having no issue with the murders in the O.T. And speaking from personal experience i think allot of inactives aren't gone because of an issue with faith.I think a lot go inactive because it is easier. Have nothing to back this up though. Maybe the church should do a survey?

[goofball]

Milk before meat. To every thing there is a season. Line upon line and fill in whatever else fits appropriately here. Following developing a testimony of God the Father and His son Jesus Christ people then need to gain a testimony of the restored gospel and prophets and apostles. Without a testimony that the Prophet is called of God then the Prophet is just a man telling me things I may not want to hear or follow.

I believe if this is gained then it is easier to comprehend what you call controversial issues. You are more likely to listen to the leaders of the LDS church if you know they are called of God.

I believe this system of learning bit by bit has been in place for thousands of years and will continue.

As for discussing controversial issues there will always be people willing to argue for and against. I figure if I spend that time reading the scriptures, the Lord will help me with any issues I may be struggling against

[Stampede]

Everything in this world is corruptable and falliable.

the ONLY source of Truth and Knowlege is the Holy Ghost.

Anything else is merely Theory or hearsay.

[Guest ceeboo]

Everything in this world is corruptable and falliable.

the ONLY source of Truth and Knowlege is the Holy Ghost.

Anything else is merely Theory or hearsay.

Hi Stampede,

Jesus ??

[Vanhin]

Hi Stampede,

Jesus ??

Of course God the Father, is the source of all truth and light, which truth and light proceeds from Him through Christ, and fills the immensity of space (D&C 88:3-13). But the way we gain knowledge is by the power of the Holy Ghost. The Father sends the Holy Ghost, and He speaks Spirit to spirit in such a way that once He has testified of something to us, we know that thing. That's why blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is so serious.

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:26)

A more correct statement, in my humble opinion, would have probably been that the source of truth and light is God, and that through the power of the Holy Ghost, we can know the truth of all things.

Regards,

Vanhin

[StallionMcBeastly]

During the podcast he listed many many things that cause people to doubt.

I'm not going to lie, some of them I found disturbing.

Perhaps maybe you guys could help me with a few questions?

He said when Joseph Smith first wrote down his account of the "first vision" that he only mentioned Christ, not God, and he didn't mention Christ telling him to form a church. Is this true?

Also, he said that in-temple ceremonies have been altered because some people found them to be bothersome. Is this true?

He also said that a pastor that lived near Joseph had written a book about people leaving Jerusalem and coming to a different land (I think he may have said the Americas) and separating into groups and waring with each other, before the Book of Mormon was translated. Is this true?

With these questions I ask, you guys may think that this guy is an anti-mormon, but he's not. He says none of the things have caused him to lose his testimony or doubt the truthfulness of the church. He served a mission and is fully active.

Its funny, these questions bother me intellectually, but not my spirit. My feelings from the spirit about the church has not changed.

[MarginOfError]

He said when Joseph Smith first wrote down his account of the "first vision" that he only mentioned Christ, not God, and he didn't mention Christ telling him to form a church. Is this true?

If memory serves me correctly, the account in the Pearl of Great Price makes no mention of his being told that he would start a Church. He was merely told not to join any of the current churches. But it wouldn't surprise me if he was told a lot more than we know. In fact, we know he was. In the accounts of the Vision that I've read, I've noticed quite a few differences, but the one line that catches my attention is that he saw many angels. The First Vision wasn't a quick and dirty thing. It was a huge event of which we know very little. Undoubtedly, Smith was overwhelmed by everything he was supposed to take in. Add to that the fact that the written accounts of the Vision all were put down years after it took place, and it isn't hard to believe that the accounts aren't exactly the same. To suggest that they should be identical at every telling is just silly.

Also, he said that in-temple ceremonies have been altered because some people found them to be bothersome. Is this true?

The temple ceremonies have been altered by the First Presidency for many reasons. Some relating to time, some relating to physical comfort, and some relating to privacy. I was working in the temple for some of the more recent changes, and nothing essential to the lessons we learn through the ordinances was altered.

He also said that a pastor that lived near Joseph had written a book about people leaving Jerusalem and coming to a different land (I think he may have said the Americas) and separating into groups and waring with each other, before the Book of Mormon was translated. Is this true?

There is a book that was written that many critics of the Church claim is uncannily similar to the Book of Mormon. I've never read it, and haven't done much looking into it. So I can't give much more information about it. Sorry

[gomspal]

There is a book by apologist Mike Ash entitled Shaken Faith Syndrome that discusses your questions. I don't have the book with me right now but when I get it I will share some of his insights about the "faith shaking discoveries" of some members that made them leave the Church and his answer to those discoveries.

[funkymonkey]

My grandparents moved from Sweden when my mom was pretty young (back in the 50s)...for the amazing Wasatch Mountains.

When they got to SLC, they learned about the gospel and were baptized.

BUT soon after, they learned that blacks could not have the preisthood, and immediately removed their membership from the church.

They both died without reinstating their membership with the church, nor did they go to any other church. I often wonder if because of her "progressive thinking" that she will be blessed.

I always had a problem with this too, and trusted my grandma's judgement.

Then I moved and there were a couple of black families in my ward and one of the men got up and told us his conversion story.

He said that Joseph Smith actually did ordain black men to the preisthood.

So it wasn't God or even the church that descriminated by race, but rather it was imperfect men.

He found the truth through his heart, that undeniable feeling. And forgave the forefathers of the church.

So what I got from it was...

I think that Joseph Smith had the complete truth and he truly put the Lord's work before anything else, including any predjudices or preconceived notions he himself might have had.

I think it was too difficult for his "successors" to follow the Lord with that same totally unconditional obedience. ...this it totally just my opinion though, not anything to do with doctrine.

Found this cool story...

" The experience of one convert in Africa illustrates how the hand of the Lord has blessed these people. A college graduate and teacher had a dream in which he saw a large building with spires or towers, into which people dressed in white were entering. Later as he was traveling, he saw a Latter-day Saint chapel and felt impressed that this church was somehow connected with his dream, so he attended a Sunday service there. After the meetings, the mission president’s wife showed him a pamphlet. Opening it, the man saw a picture of the Salt Lake Temple, the building of his dream. Later he said: “Before I became aware I was weeping. … I can’t explain the feeling. I was released of all burdens. … I felt that I had gone to a place where I visited often. And now I was at home.” Article under Kimball

[Traveler]

Hi Stampede,

Jesus ??

Most people that started to follow Jesus and listened to the debates between Jesus and the Pharisees ended up siding with the Pharisees and some even supported the crucifixion of Jesus. Today we may think such is not our lot even though we are only hearing the story from the side offered in scripture.

When Jesus talked to his Apostles at the last supper he said that there was among them someone that would betray him. Today we may like to think we are so close to Jesus that it would not be us but among those that were indeed close to Jesus – they asked, “L-rd is it I”.

The Traveler

Edited July 29, 2008 by Traveler

[nannysherri]

The big question should be is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints the true church of Christ. We are mortals trying to learn what life is and what we are here for and if there is a God. The space we live in is time, and we chose what we will do with it. If you remember in The New Testement when Jesus told the Gentile it was not his time yet. There are so many things we could question, church history, pologmy etc.. but do you want to waste the time you have on these things? What answer do you really want? Satin is in full force trying all means to destry the Church of Christ and is as against the Lord as he has been from the beginning. What can anti-stuff do for you? And my answer to the op question is NO there is nothing about the church I question and it is in no way desturbing.

[Bethie]

I think this is a great thread!

I'm not a member, but I love the Church. I'm not a member because though the Church says "We welcome all.", I don't think I would be welcome due to my situation. I have a housemate, and we have shared a home (not a bedroom), for nearly 15 years. We are both seniors, we are just friends, I am retired, and he pays all the bills, I have no income. I have heard that the Church authorities would frown on my living situation. So I love the Church from afar. Maybe someday this will change and the Church will truly "welcome all". My friend and I both have a lot to give to the Church and would a blessing to many, but we can't change our living situation. In the Bible, when Jesus travelled with his disciples, he travelled with BOTH men and women. So I really don't understand the Church's rigid rules on living situations and Church membership. It's kinda heartbreaking to me.

Also, another friend told me of a truly sad situation. She will soon be attending the wedding reception of a friend's daughter. The bride's mother has been a single mom and raised four children on a minimun wage income. The mom did her best and all the children are well behaved, intelligent and well loved. The mom sewed the daughter's wedding dress and has always made her children's clothes and showered them with love. But this good mom will not be allowed to attend her daughter's wedding in the SLC Temple. Though the mom is LDS, she doesn't have a temple reccommend. I guess she didn't pay the required tithing from her meager income. She raised her children with love and did the best she could, but the Church is now denying her a

place at her daughter's wedding. This feels very wrong to me. I understand that

tithing is really about faith and not money. But this mother used all her money for her children....and Jesus said, "what you do unto the least of these, you do unto me".

So by what right does the Church have in keeping her from her daughter's Temple wedding? I DO love the Church, yet this breaks my heart! How will non-

members feel on hearing this story? Will they be drawn to the Church? Will they

feel the Church's Love, or will they feel the well-intentioned mother's love?

I think the Church needs to become more flexible and forgiving when dealing with some issues. Jesus gave us only two "laws" as far as I can tell, "Love one another,

and Love God."

I guess that is why some people leave the Church. The Laws sometimes seem more overwhelming than the Love!

[Moksha]

I think it would be very wise for the church to often discuss the controversial issues of the past, and not be so private about them. What happened happened, and we can't change it by ignoring it.

This is an ongoing issue discussed on many forums. Being open and transparent with history is a very desirable thing. As Orson Scott Card said, it helps innoculate members when they run across these items in the normal course of living in the Information Age.

Unfortunately, there is a cadre of Church defenders who always dig in their heels and deny that this is an excellent idea. As a result, there is a sizable number of members who face this crisis of faith every year.

Well, its not going away and it needs to be addressed.

[nannysherri]

The laws of the church are of love. Obediance is what will protect you from the craftyness of Satin. Remember the church does not keep people out of the temple, we make that choice. This is a sad story and what happens will be between this mother and the bishop in her ward. Questions are fine but I am not ok with someones saying there is no love in the church. There is not a Sunday that goes by I don't feel the love of the Saviour in those walls.

[bytor2112]

People leave for many reasons, not just because of some perceived quirk with LDS history. Some of the reasons I have thought of include:

1. Never feeling worthy. I have heard this often that some never feel good enough because they are surrounded by so many seemingly "perfect" people.

2. Impossible standards. Some people feel that our standards are just to difficult to live by and they will never measure up and they always feel "guilt" over their past even though they have repented.

3. Ward members are cliquish. Not enough fellowshipping and welcoming of new members.

4. No testimony. They were living off someone else's testimony....like the missionaries.

5.Feeling like the Church consumes their life. Time, etc.

6. Temple. Some have gone to the Temple and been put off....maybe they weren't really ready. They don't understand garments and the other requirements.

7. The Church system of "Judges in Israel". Some members fear their Bishops and don't really get that he is there to help.

8. Not really understanding the doctrine. They find what seems to be an easier path, "saved by grace".

9. Historical issues definitely play a big part...especially with the internet.

10. They just don't like the church and want more "entertainment" for their Sunday worship service.

Just my thoughts......

[Bethie]

I think "The Joseph Smith Papers" project is an attempt to be more transparent with Church history. I look forward to the first volume coming out later this year.

[bytor2112]

A major source of controversy for me was how the Book of Mormon came into being. I had read about View of the Hebrews and the Spaulding Manuscript as well as theories that Sydney Rigdon was involved with the writing process. Also the use of Greek words, anachronisms, Shakespeare, adieu,KJV problems, KJV plagiarisms, Apocrypha plagiarisms, how JS translated the plates, etc. I really struggled when I learned that much of the translation occurred by using a stone he found in a well. When I saw pictures of JS sitting at a table staring at the plates and laboring to translate, I was troubled. I was troubled about the fact that supposedly much of the doctrine found in the BOM was answers to controversies swirling around at the time. I wondered why would God allow so many controversial things to occur with regard to the translation. Why is there any KJV language, much less problems found in the BOM? I still don't have an answer.......

I overcame it when I started reading the BOM and praying and realized that answers to questions might be nice, but still wouldn't prove the divinity of the BOM. Only the Holy Spirit could do that..... and it has. The Book of Mormon is another Testament of Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith did translate it by the power of God.

Edited July 29, 2008 by bytor2112

[mike_uk]

What drives me absolutely insane is that some people are too quick to say that people use the church history as an excuse to get out. So tired of hearing that lame answer. People can be truly offended by what they uncover. I was, although I have not yet left.

Oh and bytor, i like your list.

If I do ever have my name removed it will be mainly because:

The church's history. I cannot ever accept that to be from God.

The burden of being a mormon. Or as bytor said "The impossible standards".

The Temple.

Some Doctrinal issues.

Edited July 29, 2008 by mike_uk

[bytor2112]

I'm not a member, but I love the Church. I'm not a member because though the Church says "We welcome all.", I don't think I would be welcome due to my situation. I have a housemate, and we have shared a home (not a bedroom), for nearly 15 years. We are both seniors, we are just friends, I am retired, and he pays all the bills, I have no income. I have heard that the Church authorities would frown on my living situation. So I love the Church from afar. Maybe someday this will change and the Church will truly "welcome all". My friend and I both have a lot to give to the Church and would a blessing to many, but we can't change our living situation. In the Bible, when Jesus travelled with his disciples, he travelled with BOTH men and women. So I really don't understand the Church's rigid rules on living situations and Church membership. It's kinda heartbreaking to me.

Hi Bethie,

I don't think that is correct. I think you could speak to the Bishop of the local Ward and explain your situation and would be welcomed with open arms. If your arrangement is not involving sexual transgression that that shouldn't prevent you from joining the Church. We have a lady in our Ward that has a male roommate, nothing else just friends and she is a member and he isn't. The Church does welcome all............. don't delay!! :)

[bytor2112]

What drives me absolutely insane is that some people are too quick to say that people use the church history as an excuse to get out. So tired of hearing that lame answer. People can be truly offended by what they uncover. I was, although I have not yet left.

Hey Mike,

I listed at least 10 other reasons why people bale.......I am sure there are other ones. Perhaps you could add to my list.

[bytor2112]

Oh and bytor, i like your list.

Sorry Mike......didn't see this part!!

[bytor2112]

If I do ever have my name removed it will be mainly because:

The church's history. I cannot ever accept that to be from God.

The burden of being a mormon. Or as bytor said "The impossible standards".

The Temple.

Some Doctrinal issues.

Mike I feel your struggle....... I am a bit curious, though. You say because of the History of the church, which much of it is alleged, it cannot be from God? Does that include all of Christianity as well. Because there are a great deal of historical issues that make my head swirl at times.

Standards are tough...no doubt. But we all have our personal struggles...even those who appear perfect.

The Temple...ok...... I love the Temple... I don't understand it all or even why some of it is necessary. But I have faith that as I grow the Lord will reveal sacred truths to me. We don't have to be a Prophet or Apostle to see Jesus Christ or hear his voice... we just have to be worthy and listen.

Doctrinal issues are usually just misunderstandings. Maybe throwing them on the table for discussion would be a great way to sort things out.

[mike_uk]

During the podcast he listed many many things that cause people to doubt.

I'm not going to lie, some of them I found disturbing.

Perhaps maybe you guys could help me with a few questions?

He said when Joseph Smith first wrote down his account of the "first vision" that he only mentioned Christ, not God, and he didn't mention Christ telling him to form a church. Is this true?

Also, he said that in-temple ceremonies have been altered because some people found them to be bothersome. Is this true?

He also said that a pastor that lived near Joseph had written a book about people leaving Jerusalem and coming to a different land (I think he may have said the Americas) and separating into groups and waring with each other, before the Book of Mormon was translated. Is this true?

With these questions I ask, you guys may think that this guy is an anti-mormon, but he's not. He says none of the things have caused him to lose his testimony or doubt the truthfulness of the church. He served a mission and is fully active.

Its funny, these questions bother me intellectually, but not my spirit. My feelings from the spirit about the church has not changed.

That book you refer to is View of the Hebrews is an 1823 book written by Ethan Smith. There are parallels between the Book of Mormon and View of the Hewbrews.

* extensive quotation from the prophecies of Isaiah in the Old Testament

* the Israelite origin of the American Indian

* the future gathering of Israel and restoration of the Ten Lost Tribes

* the peopling of the New World from the Old via a long journey northward which encountered "seas" of "many waters"

* a religious motive for the migration

* the division of the migrants into civilized and uncivilized groups with long wars between them and the eventual destruction of the civilized by the uncivilized

* the assumption that all native peoples were descended from Israelites and their languages from Hebrew

* the burial of a "lost book" with "yellow leaves"

* the description of extensive military fortifications with military observatories or "watch towers" overlooking them

* a change from monarchy to republican forms of government

* the preaching of the gospel in ancient America.[12]

[StallionMcBeastly]

There is a book by apologist Mike Ash entitled Shaken Faith Syndrome that discusses your questions. I don't have the book with me right now but when I get it I will share some of his insights about the "faith shaking discoveries" of some members that made them leave the Church and his answer to those discoveries.

Thank you! I would very much appreciate that.

Thank you MOE, and too all, for your responses.

A question to MOE, I understand that all the accounts of the first vision wouldn't be the same, but it seems like a big part of the vision (Seeing God) to leave out. Unless the podcast dude is wrong, and Joseph's first account did include God and Jesus. Who Knows?

Thanks all for your responses, I will be back later :)