My Testimony About the Controversial Stuff

[NormalMormon]

Many of you know there are a few things about this church that bugs me. I just got endowed and am getting sealed on Friday. I am a convert of three years.

I have voiced my opinion on women, the priesthood, polygamy, our history, etc... and have begun to realized a few things about each topic that has strengthened my testimony. Here's a brief synopsis for anyone who is struggling.

Women/Priesthood: It has always bothered me that men can have the priesthood and women cannot. My arguments have been extensive on this, but there's one thing I recently realized. Men need to be held accountable more so than women. I am not just saying this to make myself feels better. Men on this Earth, as we all know, commit more sin than women (it's just statistics.) They are more prone to committing sin, and have little duties other than to work and provide for the family. Women rear children, work, clean, etc... and still manage to stay away from porn and other sins. Therefore, I assume it's only obvious that men need another way to be accountable.

Joseph's Sketchy History: Sorry, he was the prophet, but he wasn't perfect. Just like our prophet today isn't perfect. Niether is the church. Many things have yet to be revealed to us.

Polygamy: It was allowed before, it's not now. We need to follow the laws of the land and not sit on the fence about it. Just because it was okay in the past, doesn't mean it's okay now. And if we are to defend polygamy, the only option is to also defend gay rights. The only reason to defend polygamy in this day and age is for human rights reasons, not for the sake of women or bearing children. We are past those issues, therefore it is no longer needed. But if the land allows polygamy between consenting adults, by gosh they should allow gay marriage between consenting adults. If they don't allow one, they shouldn't allow they other.

My husband must have gotten this whole "polygamy is biblical and good and just not needed right now but is our ultimate destiny" thing beaten into him as a child. Yeah, sometimes it will be needed or allowed - but don't defend one sinner and chastise the next.

[BenRaines]

Not sure why if polygamy were legal the gays should have the right to marry. ????? Prophets of old had multiple wives. Abraham, Solomon, David. The later two did before the sinned and fell from leadership.

Polygamy would and could serve a purpose. Gay marriage only serves a purpose in our modern corrupt world, equal benefits for same sex couples. How about the two of them procreating, without the benefit of proxy donation for women or a surrogate for men. One, if approved by God is acceptable, the other serves no purpose.

Ben Raines

[Vort]

Men need to be held accountable more so than women. I am not just saying this to make myself feels better. Men on this Earth, as we all know, commit more sin than women (it's just statistics.) They are more prone to committing sin, and have little duties other than to work and provide for the family. Women rear children, work, clean, etc... and still manage to stay away from porn and other sins. Therefore, I assume it's only obvious that men need another way to be accountable.

Clearly, Jesus Christ was much more prone to error than his mother Mary, and thus needed to be held more accountable by holding the Priesthood.

Not.

I sincerely hope that you will learn to recognize the beauty and dignity of men as a sex, despite the failings of individuals. Your husband deserves this, as will your sons, should you ever be blessed to have any.

Also, I apologize for my previous unkindness. I hope you reread this since my edit.

Edited August 7, 2008 by Vort
Unfriendly post -- FunkyMonkey was right

[Mykdiver]

Wow, those are strong words, and opinions. Can't we all just love one another? lol

[bytor2112]

Many of you know there are a few things about this church that bugs me. I just got endowed and am getting sealed on Friday. I am a convert of three years.

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!

I have voiced my opinion on women, the priesthood, polygamy, our history, etc... and have begun to realized a few things about each topic that has strengthened my testimony. Here's a brief synopsis for anyone who is struggling.

Women/Priesthood: It has always bothered me that men can have the priesthood and women cannot. My arguments have been extensive on this, but there's one thing I recently realized. Men need to be held accountable more so than women. I am not just saying this to make myself feels better. Men on this Earth, as we all know, commit more sin than women (it's just statistics.) They are more prone to committing sin, and have little duties other than to work and provide for the family. Women rear children, work, clean, etc... and still manage to stay away from porn and other sins. Therefore, I assume it's only obvious that men need another way to be accountable.

Could you please post the statistics???!! Um, women still manage to stay away from porn? I am not a porn expert, but I imagine men look at porn to see the women who are in the porn?? Pheww.... I am with Vort on this one!!

Joseph's Sketchy History: Sorry, he was the prophet, but he wasn't perfect. Just like our prophet today isn't perfect. Niether is the church. Many things have yet to be revealed to us.

I don't think his history was sketchy at all and the church IMO is perfect. The people aren't. And yes many things have yet to be revealed to us..... but I think you had better come to grips with what has thus far been revealed to us.

Polygamy: It was allowed before, it's not now. We need to follow the laws of the land and

not sit on the fence about it. Just because it was okay in the past, doesn't mean it's okay now. And if we are to defend polygamy, the only option is to also defend gay rights. The only reason to defend polygamy in this day and age is for human rights reasons, not for the sake of women or bearing children. We are past those issues, therefore it is no longer needed. But if the land allows polygamy between consenting adults, by gosh they should allow gay marriage between consenting adults. If they don't allow one, they shouldn't allow they other.

My husband must have gotten this whole "polygamy is biblical and good and just not needed right now but is our ultimate destiny" thing beaten into him as a child. Yeah, sometimes it will be needed or allowed - but don't defend one sinner and chastise the next.

Um, your logic is badly skewed. A man may be sealed to more than one woman in this life, if his wife predeceases him. Polygamy or plural marriage was revealed by Heavenly Father to Joseph Smith...it is of God and not a sin. Homosexuality is a sin. "By gosh, they should allow gay marriage between consenting adults????!!!!!

Edited August 7, 2008 by bytor2112

[TEANCUM89]

Women/Priesthood: It has always bothered me that men can have the priesthood and women cannot. My arguments have been extensive on this, but there's one thing I recently realized. Men need to be held accountable more so than women. I am not just saying this to make myself feels better. Men on this Earth, as we all know, commit more sin than women (it's just statistics.) They are more prone to committing sin, and have little duties other than to work and provide for the family. Women rear children, work, clean, etc... and still manage to stay away from porn and other sins. Therefore, I assume it's only obvious that men need another way to be accountable.

Joseph's Sketchy History: Sorry, he was the prophet, but he wasn't perfect. Just like our prophet today isn't perfect. Niether is the church. Many things have yet to be revealed to us.

First congrats on becoming endowed and sealed, it's a wonderful blessing!

I never can understand why Women get so worked up about the Priesthood. I have always had a testimony to the fact that women don't need the Priesthood. 95% of LDS women are far more righteous then their husbands. My wife is leaps and bounds ahead of me in about every aspect of the gospel. I think men are called to serve missions just so they might someday be more equal with their wife. My wife is more loving, more understanding, more Christlike then I will ever be. I'm 44 and i'm still struggling to get to were she was at when she was 10years old.

Joseph was was very special, but he never reached the age of maturity that other latterday saint prophets have. One of the things I love about Joseph was that he was a regular guy. Had problems just like all of us.

Plural marriage?? Wow, hope I never have to particapate. However it is one of the reason am taking in breath today. So I'm glad my ancestors followed the prophet 130 years ago:D

[Connie]

It has never bothered me that women do not have the priesthood. The priesthood is a heavy responsibility. What with motherhood and womanhood, i have enough responsibility without adding more. I am thankful the men are the ones to take that responsibility so i don't have to carry it, and i still get the full blessings of it by being a member of the church! I respect and love true manhood and the men who righteously hold the priesthood. I do not think men are more prone to sin than women. The "natural woman" is sometimes much more scary than the "natural man." Look at some of the women in politics. Truly scary!

No, Joseph was not perfect, nor am i, nor is anyone. The gospel, however, is perfect, as was Jesus Christ who taught it.

Polygamy, when sanctioned by God, is not a sin. There are many instances of polygamy in the scriptures as well as church history. Are there any instances of God-sanctioned homosexual marriage? No, of course not. Homosexuality is a sin.

Sorry, couldn't keep quiet on this one. Your logic is very, very skewed. You clearly have much to learn. Perhaps reading Numbers 12 might help?

[Vort]

I have always had a testimony to the fact that women don't need the Priesthood.

Your testimony is false. Women need the Priesthood every bit as much as men.

95% of LDS women are far more righteous then their husbands. My wife is leaps and bounds ahead of me in about every aspect of the gospel.

Perhaps you should avoid generalizing your own failures onto everyone else. The fact that you are so spiritually inferior to your wife does not therefore imply that other men are spiritually inferior to their wives.

I think men are called to serve missions just so they might someday be more equal with their wife.

Again, you are mistaken. Men are called to serve missions because they hold the Priesthood, and full-time missionary work is a duty of Priesthood holders.

My wife is more loving, more understanding, more Christlike then I will ever be. I'm 44 and i'm still struggling to get to were she was at when she was 10years old.

Shameful, indeed. But again, you would do well to avoid generalizing your own shortcomings onto everyone else.

[Heather]

Women/Priesthood: It has always bothered me that men can have the priesthood and women cannot. My arguments have been extensive on this, but there's one thing I recently realized. Men need to be held accountable more so than women. I am not just saying this to make myself feels better. Men on this Earth, as we all know, commit more sin than women (it's just statistics.) They are more prone to committing sin, and have little duties other than to work and provide for the family. Women rear children, work, clean, etc... and still manage to stay away from porn and other sins. Therefore, I assume it's only obvious that men need another way to be accountable.

I've heard a lot of theories in my day, but I must admit, this is the first time I've heard this one. I don't agree with it, but always interesting to hear new takes.

I do think a lot of women have had issues with not having the priesthood at one point or another. I remember I didn't think it was fair that I didn't get to pass the sacrament when I was 12. Beyond that, it never was that big of an issue to me. When I got married, I found comfort in knowing that there were certain roles that I took on and certain roles my husband took on. I could never trade the experience of pregnancy, of carrying a life inside me, for anything. Why would we need a husband or a wife if we could do it all ourselves? I love being a mother. That's something I wouldn't trade for anything. There are certain things that I am far better at than my husband is and vice versa. That's why we're so great together.

I for one would never want to hear my husband say I'm more spiritual than him because I'm a woman. That just sounds like a cop-out for him not to put in the effort. I think there have been many points in our marriage when one of us has been more spiritual than the other.

[Truegrits]

~~~Heather~~~

I remember I didn't think it was fair that I didn't get to pass the sacrament when I was 12

The only thing I railed against, that I thought was not fair, was having to wear a dress!!! Now I love dressing up, wearing heels, hats...

I think men and women, each with their own responsibilities, talents, characteristics, are meant to be a team; to compliment each other. It is not a competition...not who is "better"...or who has the most "power"...or who is the "weakest." It is a collaboration. The strength of the family depends on the team work of all its members.

[Palerider]

If you don't have good Sisters as Presidents in Relief Society,Primary or Young Women....you will have alot of problems.....I always used my Relief Society President as a 3rd Councilor

[Mykdiver]

Very well said. If we both do the same thing then the other areas suffer. We have equal but different jobs for a reason, effectiveness.

[funkymonkey]

normal mormon.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I really did appreciate reading them. You are exactly where I was about 3 years ago.

Unlike the "spiritual giants" or whatever you would like to call them... I too had a big problem with the women and the priesthood. ...and the polygamy thing.... and Joseph Smith.

I also came to the same conclusions you have.

I was comfortable with those ideas and I wasn't "struck down" by lightening and the Lord honestly continued to love me and guide me.

So over time, as my testimony grew and I gained more and more understanding through the spirit...one by one, I have grown in understanding regarding these issues.

Just continue to trust in the Lord and in time and one by one, you too will be "refined" in understanding the ways of the Lord. You are not expected to understand everything at once...don't be afraid to ask questions either. That's part of growing and learning.

Hang in there, don't let these offensive comments hurt your testimony or your individual relationship with the Lord...and don't let these comments make you think that you are wrong...you are just in a different place spiritually than they are. All understanding can come in due time...and it sounds like to me that you are well on your way!

Many people do not understand just how different we all can come to have a testimony, how it grows, and understanding of the Lord's ways.

God Bless.

-B

[Vort]

I agree with you about one thing, funkymonkey: My response was unkind. I have edited it to be, hopefully, more positive and less cutting, and will endeavor to be more careful in the future about writing such a response.

[BenRaines]

NormalMormon,

If my response was unkind I am sorry for that. It is never my intention to offend another person. That would be un-Christlike.

As has been mentioned we are all at different levels of understanding there are, I am sure, things that you are recently learning that I in all my years have forgotten.

One thing is true. The Holy Ghost can only bear witness to truth. It can not bear witness to falsehoods. That is why our testimonies given in church should be of some of the basics. To learn and testify that one knows or believes that God live, that Jesus Christ is his Only Begotten Son, that we have received testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and things like that.

Congrats on attending the temple.

Ben Raines

[Connie]

I, too, am sorry for my harsh words. I did not say them in the spirit of charity as i ought. It's obvious that I have a lot to learn, too.

Congratulations on going to the temple! I hope your experience is as wonderful as mine was and that you go back often and keep learning and growing in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[WANDERER]

Ummm...I'm not going to hold up by beliefs as anyone else's standard...but they are currently:

Joseph Smith: definitely inspired...and not perfect. But to accept that he was inspired on many things is different to knowing the truth if you understand what I am saying.

Polygamy: I hope I don't get put in the position where it becomes something I have to deal with..but in terms of testimony... because it's not an issue I have to face..it's not a stumbling block. I have to prioritise what is important and what I will sidestep because I have so many other things to deal with.

Priesthood for women: I can't deal with it...sorry...I can't explain or answer or rationalise what I feel because discussing it doesn't make the feeling go away..it's a heart thing.

Thankyou for sharing...it's difficult isn't it?

[bytor2112]

I guess I was a bit "snipity" as well.......sorry:) Perhaps my opinion should have been more like this:

NormalMormon,

Congratulations!! The Sealing is a very spiritual experience...at least it was for me. I do, however, disagree with your premise that men are more prone to commiting sins like pornography, etc. The Atonement was wrought for all humankind, male and female alike. We all sin and as such cannot return to the presence of our Father without the Savior's atonement and repentance. My wife had issues with polygamy as well. That being said, it is my personal belief polygamy was for a righteous purpose then and at some point in time in the eternities, if we still measure time, I believe we will all understand the righteous purpose behind it and all of our Father's designs and plans. As for the issue of equating legalizing "gay" marriage with polygamy, I can only ay that one is an immoral act, a sin, and the other is not. Polygamy is however illegal and not practiced in the church today, other than in the eternal sense as I posted earlier.

I wouldn't get hung up on these kind of issues. The Gospel is a beautiful thing and as we grow spiritually, like Funkey monkey said, the Spirit teaches us sacred truths about things like polygamy, Joseph Smith, etc. .......as we are prepared to recieve it.

[breeb]

I did a google search. I dont know if there is a statistic for SIN but there are statistics on crime.

National Statistics Online

I dont know what the deal is with this link. I hope it works.

[PapilioMemnon]

Many of you know there are a few things about this church that bugs me. I just got endowed and am getting sealed on Friday. I am a convert of three years. .

Hi NM,

Yes, I think I've read some of your posts about some issues that you don't understand.

I hope you keep nourishing your testimony with basic doctrines of the gospel as you go to make, learn & understand more sacred & higher teachings & covenants with the Lord.

I have voiced my opinion on women, the priesthood, polygamy, our history, etc... and have begun to realized a few things about each topic that has strengthened my testimony. Here's a brief synopsis for anyone who is struggling..

I'm glad that you seem to be working on understanding as you study your scriptures, pray, and ponder, and ask of the Lord to enlighten your mind (Basic doctrine). Remember that your testimony should rest upon a solid foundation which is Jesus Christ, His teachings, and the testimony of the Holy Ghost of the truth, not your idea of understanding things.

Women/Priesthood: It has always bothered me that men can have the priesthood and women cannot. My arguments have been extensive on this, but there's one thing I recently realized. Men need to be held accountable more so than women. I am not just saying this to make myself feels better. Men on this Earth, as we all know, commit more sin than women (it's just statistics.) They are more prone to committing sin, and have little duties other than to work and provide for the family. Women rear children, work, clean, etc... and still manage to stay away from porn and other sins. Therefore, I assume it's only obvious that men need another way to be accountable. .

I disagree with you about the accountability of men & women. You seem to be overlooking the sacred and extremely high responsibility that was placed upon us (women) of bringing His children into the world the right way, and raising them unto the Lord!

Men need women & women need men: to have a helpmeet & not be alone, share the different and similar responsibilites, grow/develop together, procreate & raise (have children), achieve the highest degree of the priesthood (Maybe I didn't word this right, but I'm hoping you'll understand).

Our Heavenly Father was the one who divided the responsibilities betweem men & women, not men. Priesthood & motherhood goes hand in hand; just different assignments; they would become literally overwhelming tasks for both genders if we were to do all the other does!!!!! Yikes... almost impossible to accomplish! How were women and men to complete each other if they both had the same exact tasks?

I'm glad that in His wisdom, He gave us different tasks! Differences do not necessarily mean bad; our gender is different and so are our resposiblities! One does not demean or is superior to the other in any way!

The Priesthood allows men to conduct the affairs of Heavenly Father here on earth; motherhood allows women to conduct the affairs of Heavenly Father's spirit children on earth. Is this a "small, insignificant" thing?

If you are not yet a parent, you surely does not comprehend the overwhelming task He gave us; and if you are already, I feel that you have fallen victim of comparing tasks as the world does, and raking them as significant &/or not, and you DO NOT understand the sacred calling of motherhood!

Now, as far as commiting sin is concerned, BOTH are prone to commit sin and we all do in many different ways. Adam didn't fall more than Eve. Since men have been more in the control of things since the beginning and subjected women, remember that's not the Lord's plan, and they indeed have entered in many battles, secret combinations, it is unclear the number of women who joined them, not really in battles, but in assisting them in many other ways.

Some women who have been in power have been worse than many men; why was John the Baptist killed? Who asked for his head in a plate? Please read: Mark 6

Another instance: When Nephi were in the ship with all his family, he spoke about his fear of the Lord's judgments upon them because his brothers, sons of Ishamel & their wives "began to make themselves merry, ... to dance and to sing, and to speak with much rudeness." Please read: 1 Nephi 18

This brought me to reflect the many ways we express ourselves, and in the way we dance, sing, and speak, we can sin a lot!!!! It's not hard to imagine in what ways the dancing/singing/speaking might have been, how sensual/sexual in nature, for Nephi to classify as "exceeding rudeness.''

If men, unless attraced to same-gender, are looking at pornography... guess who they are looking at? The women are are there! If the women are there for them to look at it, they are involved in pornography then. (Just trying to reason here something quite logical)

Actually, there has been a growing number of women, mentioned at my ward, at a RS's meeting, that are involved in pornography, in viewing it, and we were warned against it.

Because women have children, clean, and work,... does not mean they don't sin or they are immune to pornography or to sin as you have seemed to imply.

Sister, unfortunately, the sins men commit of sexual nature, again, if not attracted to same-gender, are because of the women who provide them what to look at it (Anywhere), to think about, to lust after...)

In many ways, the Prophets have warned us, women, to be chaste and modest in our appearance, speech, and expressions, talks so not to distract men... We have great responsibility in leading them to sin!!!

In simple words: Men would not look/react to other women to think/lust after them, most of time, if they would not wear mini-skirts, beach wear that is almost not there, low-cut shirts, very tight clothing, etc... The same with dancing... singing (can a someone sing/speak in a very sensual way or say words that leads to those thoughts???)

I will defend the men in this thing because it's true!

I surely hope that you come to a much better understanding of the differences in responsibilities for men & women than the ones you came up. Trying to understand the Lord's ways with the mentality of the world is NOT helpful at all! We are in the world, but should not to be part of it (Thinking, behaving,...) I also hope that you become more compassionate about finding ways and coming to realizations as to "hold someone accountable." I'm sure that was not the intention of Heavenly Father when He gave us different assignments.

Joseph's Sketchy History: Sorry, he was the prophet, but he wasn't perfect. Just like our prophet today isn't perfect. Niether is the church. Many things have yet to be revealed to us..

Prophets are humans, ad humans are fallible beings like us. Nonetheless, they are called to do the work of God upon this earth like us (Do you hold a calling?); they do though sometimes, in imperfect ways. Doing it, persevering, seeking the Lord as we do all we can, help us get better at it, at doing the Lord's way.

The Church is perfect because it's of Jesus Christ Church that has been restored; the ones who lead it are not, since it's lead on earth by humans like us. The Lord gives us assignments, but He will NOT tell us every little thing of how it should be done except for very particular things. We learn as we go along... in faith and obedience to the simple, basic and "small" things!

When Lehi left Jerusalem in obedience to the commandment of the Lord, The Lord did not tell Him to get the plates from Laban, and Ishmael's family so his sons could marry them, etc... He instructed Lehi on what was necessary for him to know and do at each moment, little by little, as he had faith & obeyed the Lord.

And so was with the Prophet Joseph Smith; he was instructed little by little, as He translated the BOM, and things came up, circumstances that arose at that moment and as Joseph studied and pondered doctrines and practices; the Lord then revealed more and more to him. The same is done to us as we are ready to receive!

The Lord will NOT give us all instructions at once, tell us the WHYs of all things at once,... Faith is a basic principle and is required to follow Him; perseverance is another; patience is another (waiting upon the Lord); studying the scriptures to learn of Him, that He may enlighten our understanding is another; and so on...

You're quite right about that there are many things yet to be revealed... so, continue in faith, scripture study, prayer, and fasting... seeking God in all things, and not leaning to your own understanding of things...

"We can't bear all things now and at once... we must grow in [faith], grace, and knowledge of the truth" (D&C 50:40)

Polygamy: It was allowed before, it's not now. We need to follow the laws of the land and not sit on the fence about it. Just because it was okay in the past, doesn't mean it's okay now.

It is allowed and done by the will and sanction of the Lord only! If you sustain the prophets, and believe, really know & have a testimony by the Holy Ghost, that Joseph Smith was indeed a prophet of God, you know he didn't do that out of his own ideas and desires!

Were you a Christian before you converted? If so, how did you manage Abraham (the wife and concubines), Jacob, David & Solomon? Were they prophets? Have you read the Lord "gave to them..."? Were & are their teachings true?

In the case of David & Solomon who actually commited adultery by taking what the Lord did not give unto them, the questions are: Were they prophets of God? Did they teach the things of God? Are the teachings still valid? Did they do things perfectly? Did God asked them to do things perfectly? Did their behavior annull God's teachings, the veracity of God, and all the revelations & prophecies?

How did you make past those things and got stuck on Joseph Smith?

It all comes down to receiving a testimony of God, through the Holy Ghost, that Joseph Smith was indeed His prophet, that the First Vision is true, and many other basic beliefs.

And if we are to defend polygamy, the only option is to also defend gay rights. The only reason to defend polygamy in this day and age is for human rights reasons, not for the sake of women or bearing children. We are past those issues, therefore it is no longer needed. But if the land allows polygamy between consenting adults, by gosh they should allow gay marriage between consenting adults. If they don't allow one, they shouldn't allow they other.

WHAT???

:eek:How in the world did you get to this conclusion? Something is off with the reasoning there...

As far as I know, there's nowhere in the scriptures, one single passage that shows that the Lord taught, allowed, sanctioned, not even one person to practice or be involved with same-gender relationships.

Polygamy and same-gender relationships are not interrelated in any way!

I believe you need to seriously prayerfully rethink this reasoning and conclusion that you explained.

My husband must have gotten this whole "polygamy is biblical and good and just not needed right now but is our ultimate destiny" thing beaten into him as a child. Yeah, sometimes it will be needed or allowed - but don't defend one sinner and chastise the next.

I don't know of anyone who "beats into" others the doctrine of polygamy! Maybe your husband simply understands it as it is....

Are you suggesting that Abraham, and others who did have other wives and concubines (by the way) sin? Again, have you read the scriptures carefully? If so, have you read that The Lord "gave unto" them? Are you suggesting the Lord made them sin? If God allowed, sanctioned, and gave unto them, is it a sin? What is a sin? Is it doing what the Lord commanded or partaking of what He liberally allowed???

If your hubby had those things "beaten into" him, you surely have the world's teaching/view/understanding "beaten into" you.

Sister, I highly suggest that you keep on working on basic beliefs and teachings, and practices until you grown into more understanding... understanding the way God sees it, His ways,... not trying to have a mortal, worldly, carnal men understanding of the thing of God... it's impossible to understand God's way with this approach!

Please read 1 Corinthians 2; I'll paste a portion of it:

9 But as it is written, aEye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath bprepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath arevealed them unto us by his bSpirit: for the cSpirit dsearcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man aknoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God bknoweth no man, cbut the dSpirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the aspirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s awisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost bteacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the anatural man breceiveth not the things of the cSpirit of God: for they are dfoolishness unto him: neither can he eknow them, because they are fspiritually gdiscerned.

15 But he that is spiritual ajudgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may ainstruct him? But we have the bmind of Christ.

A carnal/worldly mind cannot understand spiritual things, things of God because comparing carnal/worldly view with spiritual view is not profitable, not compatible.

Prov. 4: 1, 5, 7 1 Hear, ye children, the ainstruction of a father, and attend to know understanding.

• • •

5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.

• • •

7 aWisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get bunderstanding.

May we continue to accept and exercise faith with patience, persevere, study the scriptures, ponder, and do the will of the Lord, obey His commandments so that He may, in His mercy, wisdom, and time, brings us to the knowledge of truth and give us much understanding of all things we NEED to know and understand.

Peace!

Edited August 7, 2008 by PapilioMemnon

[TEANCUM89]

Vort,

Thanks for the Christ like response! My testimony stands, Women do not need to bare the priesthood. if you are married it is shared between husband and wife, kind of like a team. 19 year old Boys are called to preach the gospel and learn to be more Christ like (better husbands,brothers, sons). If you're as rightous as you're wife I'm proud of you! Most men are not, as SHAMEFUL as that maybe. Ether taught us to learn about our own weakness so they can become strengths. Not sure what world your living in. Look around you, women by nature are more Christlike. For most men in takes more work. Hopefully thats were baring the priesthood can really help us as men.Hope you have a great day! You may want to try a little honey life!

[OtterPop]

I've often heard this idea that motherhood is women's complementary responsibility to men's priesthood responsibility, but there are two things that really bother me about this:

1. It seems to minimize or marginalize a father's role. Men are parents, too. From what I've seen, even when they are not the primary caretaker, men are deeply committed to their children and their role as fathers. They love their children deeply. It is not all the women's responsibility to parent.

2. It leaves no primary responsibility for childless women. What about women who never marry or are infertile? Men still get the priesthood, but these women get . . . what?

I'd really appreciate any thoughts or opinions.

[Vort]

Vort,

Thanks for the Christ like response!

You betcha! Just doing my best! If that falls short -- well, hey, I'm a man. It's to be expected.

My testimony stands, Women do not need to bare the priesthood.

Since women do not, in fact, bear the Priesthood, it is obvious that they do not need to do so. But they still need the Priesthood every bit as much as men, even though you claimed they did not. Men do bear the Priesthood; it is the duty given them. Both sexes need the Priesthood.

I assume that you believe that Jesus Christ was too carnal and devilish without the Priesthood, so that is why he held it, but not (for example) the woman taken in adultery. Or the Samaritan woman with five previous husbands who was living with a man she was not married to. These women were simply too virtuous, too righteous, too pure to need the Priesthood, unlike that filthy male, Jesus Christ, or his apostles.

I don't buy it.

if you are married it is shared between husband and wife, kind of like a team.

This is new doctrine. I have never heard of Priesthood authority being "shared" between a husband and wife. Do you have a reference for this unorthodox idea?

If you're as rightous as you're wife I'm proud of you! Most men are not, as SHAMEFUL as that maybe.

Another shameful thing is to make a broad judgment against an entire group of people that you have no authority nor ability to make.

Ether taught us to learn about our own weakness so they can become strengths. Not sure what world your living in.

A world that doesn't devalue men for being male.

Look around you, women by nature are more Christlike.

Not from where I stand.

You may want to try a little honey life!

Nor sure what honey life is. Does it have to do with telling my sons that they are by their very natures less Godly than their sisters?

[breeb]

I dont think any one is saying ALL men are this way or ALL women are that way. Especially Christ. We need to remember who Christ is and leave him out of this discussion if its not going in a very Christ like direction. Lets be civilized here. Christ is perfect. We all agree with that.

Edited August 7, 2008 by breeb

[bytor2112]

I've often heard this idea that motherhood is women's complementary responsibility to men's priesthood responsibility, but there are two things that really bother me about this:

1. It seems to minimize or marginalize a father's role. Men are parents, too. From what I've seen, even when they are not the primary caretaker, men are deeply committed to their children and their role as fathers. They love their children deeply. It is not all the women's responsibility to parent.

2. It leaves no primary responsibility for childless women. What about women who never marry or are infertile? Men still get the priesthood, but these women get . . . what?

I'd really appreciate any thoughts or opinions.

1st Corinthians Ch. 11 verses 7-12

7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.

9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

From D&C Section 131, verses 1-4

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this border of the priesthood [meaning the new and deverlasting covenant of marriage];

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

From D&C Section 132, verses 19-20

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent iblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

Edited August 7, 2008 by bytor2112