8th Article of Faith

[pam]

There have been many investigators using this website to get some basic doctrinal information about the Church. Each week I will post an Article of Faith so that the discussion of each can be done. Keep in mind..this is based on LDS doctrine and debating of that will not be tolerated. Let's try and make this more personal. Copy and paste is wonderful but reading personal testimony and understanding of this doctrinal subject is far more meaningful.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

[JonboySquarepants]

this article of faith sometimes makes me wonder if the book of mormon is without error. i remember reading quotes about people saying it is the 'most correct book' on the earth, but is that the same as it being without error? can the Word of God be full of errors?

[Misshalfway]

this article of faith sometimes makes me wonder if the book of mormon is without error. i remember reading quotes about people saying it is the 'most correct book' on the earth, but is that the same as it being without error? can the Word of God be full of errors?

As you read the Bofm, the authors themselves acknowledge the weakness in the record or their weakness it writing it. I think there is difference between having an error and being "full" of errors though.

[JonboySquarepants]

As you read the Bofm, the authors themselves acknowledge the weakness in the record or their weakness it writing it. I think there is difference between having an error and being "full" of errors though.

i see what you mean, and i made a poor choice of words. but it was by the power of God that j smith translated the plates through the methods i already stated. speculative question though, do you think God would maked words appear in the hat to j smith that were not true or were in error?

[Guest ceeboo]

As you read the Bofm, the authors themselves acknowledge the weakness in the record or their weakness it writing it. I think there is difference between having an error and being "full" of errors though.

Hi Misshalfway,

As always, I am confused :) ( surprising ?? )

Can you explain this more ??

Thanks,

God bless,

Carl

[pam]

i see what you mean, and i made a poor choice of words. but it was by the power of God that j smith translated the plates through the methods i already stated. speculative question though, do you think God would maked words appear in the hat to j smith that were not true or were in error?

Let me see if I understand your question correctly. Are you asking if God would have given words to Joseph Smith that were untrue or were in error?

[john doe]

I think the main difficulty is that anytime a book is translated to another language, something is lost in the meaning. Also, sometimes people, even prophets, write things down that mean different things to different people. Heck, sometimes I read scriptures and they touch me in a certain way, and then later I'll go back and the same passage will touch me in another way, or mean something different to me the second time around.

Sometimes there are not words to express the ways of God. God is perfect, but sometimes we, in our lesser state, don't understand Him completely. I think He then gives us smaller things to do first, in preparation, before He asks us to do the things He really wanted us to do.

[JonboySquarepants]

yes, that is what i'm asking. being more specific though, i'm asking if God gave j smith the words exactly as the authors wrote them, even if the authors were in error. so, not exactly God making the error, just passing it along to j smith.

[pam]

I'm speaking generally here. God does not error nor would he pass on things in error.

[JonboySquarepants]

ok. thanks.

another side note about this AoF, i giggle when i think to myself as to how i've always thought of it;

"we believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the book of mormon to be the word of God as far as it is printed correctly."

[Still_Small_Voice]

This article of faith sometimes makes me wonder if the Book of Mormon is without error. I remember reading quotes about people saying it is the 'most correct book' on the earth, but is that the same as it being without error? Can the Word of God be full of errors?

No book is without error on the earth. The Book of Mormon is not a perfect book. But I know

No man could have wrote that book without the hand of God guiding him. No man could have wrote the truths in the Bible either without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

The Book of Mormon is not full of errors. The Bible has some errors in the text. What happened to the Bible is some truths have been removed. Read I Nephi chapter 13:

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles . . .

[JonboySquarepants]

What happened to the Bible is some truths have been removed.

what truths were taken out?

[Misshalfway]

what truths were taken out?

I am not exactly sure how to answer this question because I am not a bible scholar and haven't the resources available. But I think when I read the JS translation and compare, I start to get an idea of what may have happened over time. I truly believe that some truths were lost because of well-meaning human error. Others because of political gain and even some because of deliberate motives to deceive.

[JonboySquarepants]

you said the book of mormon is not full or errors. do you think it has any? if so, what are they?

[pam]

Here is an exerpt from an article from President Faust in the Ensign. I found these two paragraphs extremely important in understanding some things about the translation of the Book of Mormon.

The process of translating the Book of Mormon was an education for Joseph Smith. When the Lord called him, he was a young man, unlearned, simple, and very ordinary in the eyes of the world. This, of course, was in the scriptural pattern described by Paul: “God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty” (1 Cor. 1:27). President Brigham Young identified the qualities that are vital for the servants of the Lord: “If a man … of good natural judgement [possessed] no higher qualifications than faithfulness and humility enough to seek … the Lord for all his knowledge and … trust in him for his strength I would prefer him … to the learned” (General Church Minutes, 1839–1877, 23 Oct. 1859, p. 2).

But those who are humble, unlearned, and teachable still need a teacher as well as a means by which they can learn what God intends for them. This was true in the case of Joseph Smith. For him the Spirit had to be the teacher, and translating the Book of Mormon provided the schooling. The translation process taught the unlearned young man from New York essential lessons which were vital for his call as the prophet of the Restoration. As the Book of Mormon operates as the “keystone of our religion” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 194), so the process of translation was the keystone of the Prophet’s education (Ron Esplin, private memo to author, 2 June 1987).

[Still_Small_Voice]

What truths were taken out?

Many prophecies of Jesus Christ were removed from the Old Testament books. Read the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price and compare that to the Book of Genesis.

Other truths were also removed that I cannot name at this time.

[JonboySquarepants]

thanks pam!

[JonboySquarepants]

Other truths were also removed that I cannot name at this time.

because you don't know or because you don't want to share them?

[Misshalfway]

Hi Misshalfway,

As always, I am confused :) ( surprising ?? )

Can you explain this more ??

Thanks,

God bless,

Carl

Ceeboo,

Sorry to confuse you. I made my above comments with the assumption that the OP was familiar with the text of the Bofm. Let me give you a couple of examples of what I mean. I will quote directly from the Bofm and hopefully that will help to make my point that the many authors of the BofM wrote according to the best of their ability but acknowledged that they were indeed imperfect in the effort.

1 Nephi 19:3-6 (Background= Nephi was a prophet and lived in Jerusalem before migrating to the America's. He was commanded to keep records. It is clear from his writings that he made a historical record AND a spiritual record. The Spiritual record is what we know, as the BofM)

3 And after I had made these plates by way of commandment, I, Nephi, received a commandment that the ministry and the prophecies, the more plain and precious parts of them, should be written upon these plates; and that the things which were written should be kept for the instruction of my people, who should possess the land, and also for other wise purposes, which purposes are known unto the Lord.

4 Wherefore, I, Nephi, did make a record upon the aother plates, which gives an account, or which gives a greater account of the wars and contentions and destructions of my people. And this have I done, and commanded my people what they should do after I was gone; and that these plates should be handed down from one generation to another, or from one prophet to another, until further commandments of the Lord.

5 And an account of my making these plates shall be given hereafter; and then, behold, I proceed according to that which I have spoken; and this I do that the more sacred things may be kept for the knowledge of my people.

6 Nevertheless, I do not write anything upon plates save it be that I think it be sacred. And now, if I do err, even did they err of old; not that I would excuse myself because of other men, but because of the weakness which is in me, according to the flesh, I would excuse myself.[

2 Nephi 33:4

4And I know that the Lord God will consecrate my prayers for the gain of my people. And the words which I have written in weakness will be made strong unto them; for it persuadeth them to do good; it maketh known unto them of their fathers; and it speaketh of Jesus, and persuadeth them to believe in him, and to endure to the end, which is life eternal.

Ether 12:23 (A prophet named Moroni writes about faith and adds this aside about his writing)

23 And I said unto him: Lord, the Gentiles will mock at these things, because of our weakness in writing; for Lord thou hast made us mighty in word by faith, but thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them;

Mormon 9:30-34

30 Behold, I speak unto you as though I spake from the dead; for I know that ye shall have my words.

31 Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.

32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the areformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.

33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.

34 But the Lord knoweth the things which we have written, and also that none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof.

Edited August 10, 2008 by Misshalfway

[Misshalfway]

you said the book of mormon is not full or errors. do you think it has any? if so, what are they?

I think that it is safe to assume that God gave his stamp of approval on all of Mormon's and Moroni's work. I think that Joseph Smith received the record the exact way Father wanted it given to the world.

I personally don't feel much in the way of errors in the text in doctrinal terms. I wonder if perhaps we miss the meaning of the author of a certain passage because he wasn't writing in his own tongue.

[Guest ceeboo]

Ceeboo,

Sorry to confuse you. I made my above comments with the assumption that the OP was familiar with the text of the Bofm. Let me give you a couple of examples of what I mean. I will quote directly from the Bofm and hopefully that will help to make my point that the many authors of the BofM wrote according to the best of their ability but acknowledged that they were indeed imperfect in the effort.

1 Nephi 19:3-6 (Background= Nephi was a prophet and lived in Jerusalem before migrating to the America's. He was commanded to keep records. It is clear from his writings that he made a historical record AND a spiritual record. The Spiritual record is what we know, as the BofM)

3 And after I had made these plates by way of commandment, I, Nephi, received a commandment that the ministry and the prophecies, the more plain and precious parts of them, should be written upon these plates; and that the things which were written should be kept for the instruction of my people, who should possess the land, and also for other wise purposes, which purposes are known unto the Lord.

4 Wherefore, I, Nephi, did make a record upon the aother plates, which gives an account, or which gives a greater account of the wars and contentions and destructions of my people. And this have I done, and commanded my people what they should do after I was gone; and that these plates should be handed down from one generation to another, or from one prophet to another, until further commandments of the Lord.

5 And an account of my making these plates shall be given hereafter; and then, behold, I proceed according to that which I have spoken; and this I do that the more sacred things may be kept for the knowledge of my people.

6 Nevertheless, I do not write anything upon plates save it be that I think it be sacred. And now, if I do err, even did they err of old; not that I would excuse myself because of other men, but because of the weakness which is in me, according to the flesh, I would excuse myself.[

2 Nephi 33:4

4And I know that the Lord God will consecrate my prayers for the gain of my people. And the words which I have written in weakness will be made strong unto them; for it persuadeth them to do good; it maketh known unto them of their fathers; and it speaketh of Jesus, and persuadeth them to believe in him, and to endure to the end, which is life eternal.

Ether 12:23 (A prophet named Moroni writes about faith and adds this aside about his writing)

23 And I said unto him: Lord, the Gentiles will mock at these things, because of our weakness in writing; for Lord thou hast made us mighty in word by faith, but thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them;

Mormon 9:30-34

30 Behold, I speak unto you as though I spake from the dead; for I know that ye shall have my words.

31 Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.

32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the areformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.

33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.

34 But the Lord knoweth the things which we have written, and also that none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof.

Happy Sunday Misshalfway,

( Go USA, 20 minutes till swimming )

Thank you for the perspective as well as the generous effort put forth on my behalf :)

The ( BOM ) refs was not really what confused me.

A few of the things that do are:

My understanding of " translation account " Regardless of what method JS was translating the ancient gold tablets ( seer stone, hat, therum and tillium ( Forgot words sorry ), or simply looking at gold tabs. JS translated each word to scribe then scribe read it back to JS for absolute accuracy. This makes me confused as to the amount of " error " or corrections or changes from the original BOM to the now BOM.

In addition, another post made reference to " people have said that the BOM is the most correct book ever " It is not that people may or may not have said this, it is my understanding that JS said this.

Thanks in advance for your consideration,

God bless,

Carl

[Misshalfway]

Whoops Carl. Sorry if I misunderstood your question.

Joseph translated the record in approx. 63 days. (Not consecutively). He did make some changes with the help of one of his scribes. Most of the corrections were punctuation and other such human errors. The Book was later edited to add verses and footnotes and an index was added.

If you would like to see an example of the kinds of corrections that were made you can go to LDS.org and search under "most correct book" or "Book of Mormon, changes to" and you can see a little more information on that.

You are right that Joseph said it was the most correct book. Here is the exact quote.

I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” (History of the Church, 4:461.)

Be sure that the "correct book" idea doesn't mean that the book is absolutely without flaw. As I tried to point out, its limitations are a result of language/translating limitations. It is clear, at least to me, that the Lord allows for some of those limitations with all scriptural written records. Even with its flaws, the BofM has the power to help a man come to Christ. At least, that has been true for me.

Am I any closer to helping you with your question?

[Misshalfway]

Can I just ask, Carl, where you are getting your information about the translation of the BofM?

[Guest ceeboo]

Can I just ask, Carl, where you are getting your information about the translation of the BofM?

Absolutly ( seems the very least I can do is to be transparent with you in light of your willingness to take my hand and warmly share your beliefs with me ):)

I have tried ( it is hard ) to consider many different sources on this and other topics.

I have used CAF ( Catholic answers forum ), Catholic apologetics, LDS.org, Fairlds, Jeff Lindsay, this forum and others. I will freely admit that these various sites paint a VERY different painting regarding these topics ( to put it mildly ).

I am almost certain that this topic " translation account of BofM " was NOT disputed on any side, that ( out of respect ) was why I chose to ask you of it. Pleas forgive me if I am misunderstanding this.

God bless,

Carl

[Guest ceeboo]

Whoops Carl. Sorry if I misunderstood your question.

Be sure that the "correct book" idea doesn't mean that the book is absolutely without flaw. As I tried to point out, its limitations are a result of language/translating limitations. It is clear, at least to me, that the Lord allows for some of those limitations with all scriptural written records. Even with its flaws, the BofM has the power to help a man come to Christ. At least, that has been true for me.

Am I any closer to helping you with your question?

Misshalfway,

" The Lord allows for some limitations with all scriptural written records "

I could not AGREE more ( well said )

" The BofM has the power to help a man come to Christ "

Whatever it is that helps any of us come to christ ( AMEN )

God bless,

Carl