What was the promlems with Mormons&Blacks in the 1800's?

[markwinfield1]

Another question,i want to get out the way!

Don't take this question.In a Negative way!Thankyou...

I meant *Problem*

Edited August 18, 2008 by markwinfield1

[markwinfield1]

This for example...I just wanna get get it.Out of my head...

Mormons and Black Skin

[Moksha]

A good question to ask also, is what the religious forebearers of that Christian attack website were up to 165 years ago. My guess is that they may have been slave owners. Also, I wonder how many black people were in their congregation in 1960?

[bytor2112]

Mark,

You should check our fairlds.org...their is a really good section on race issues as well as many other topics.

[NeuroTypical]

It's important to have a sense of cultural context of the time. Our church was restored right before the US split in half and started killing each other to figure out if blacks should be slaves or not. Christianity had, for a millenia, used scripture to justify slavery, and there were plenty of Christians that continued to do so into the 1800's. America's battle for civil rights continued from the conclusion of the Civil War through the '50's and '60's. You can make a good case that the battle continues today.

Here are some quotes from a church leader of the time:

...he is not denied entrance into the Church. He may be baptized for the remission of his sins and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and if true and faithful to the end, he may enter the celestial kingdom. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds out more for the Negro than any other religious denomination. Salvation in the Kingdom of God is open to him, with the promise that in the due time of the Lord, if he receives the gospel, all restrictions will be removed.

No church or other organization is more insistent than The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, that the Negroes should receive all the rights and privileges that can possibly be given to any other in the true sense of equality as declared in the Declaration of Independence. They should be equal to ""life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."" They should be equal in the matter of education. They should not be barred from obtaining knowledge and becoming proficient in any field of science, art or mechanical occupation. They should be free to choose any kind of employment, to go into business in any field they may choose and to make their lives as happy as it is possible without interference from white men, labor unions or from any other source. In their defense of these privileges the members of the Church will stand.

- Joseph Fielding Smith, 1957, Answers to Gospel Questions

From the Book of Mormon:

For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile. - 2 Nephi 26:32-33

LM

[funkymonkey]

This article at Fairlds.org sites three interesting points...

"a) there is no contemporary account of a revelation underlying the ban; but

b) many early members nevertheless believed that there had been such a revelation; and

c) priesthood ordination of African blacks was a rare event, which became even more rare with time. "

The last part is the most interesting to me...because Joseph Smith did ordain black men into the priesthood. They made the amazing pioneer trek to Salt Lake city with everyone else.

The article also says...

"Members have generally taken one of three perspectives:

1 -the ban was based on revelation to Joseph Smith, and was continued by his successors until President Kimball

2 -the ban did not originate with Joseph Smith, but was implemented by Brigham Young by revelation

3 -the ban began as a series of administrative policy decisions, rather than a revealed doctrine, and drew partly upon ideas regarding race common in mid-19th century America. The passage of time gave greater authority to this policy than intended. "

Personally, I agree with #3. Joseph Smith was inspired enough to see through the racial confusion of the time and did the Lord's will. After his death this truth had been lost due to the preconceived notions of man. And I think that Kimball was the first guy to truly open enough to ask for the Lord's direction in this. The faith is perfect, man is not.

[Doctor Steuss]

Unfortunately, your question can't be answered with a small soundbite. In fact, your question (in my opinion) can only be answered by you through research. Anyone's answer will most likely be that which they came to on their own, and unfortunately, this is a subject that I believe one must come to their own answers on...

Why This Web Site :: Blacklds.org

Dispelling the Black Myth | Blacklds.org

The LDS Church and the Race Issue | Blacklds.org

Blacks and the Priesthood (Perkins) | Blacklds.org

Lamanites, the Seed of Cain, and Polygamy | Blacklds.org

The Charge of ‘Racism’ in the Book of Mormon | Blacklds.org

Civil Turmoil -- Mormon Scholars Confront the Race Issue (This book is now available for free online -- I highly recommend it).

Amazon.com: One More River to Cross (Standing on the Promises, Book 1): Margaret Blair Young, Darius Aidan Gray: Books

Amazon.com: Bound for Canaan (Standing on the Promises, Book 2): Margaret Blair Young, Darius Aidan Gray: Books

Amazon.com: The Last Mile of the Way (Standing on the Promises, Book 3): Margaret Blair Young, Darius Aidan Gray: Books

The above three volumes are historical fiction. Although written with a fictional narrative, they contain footnotes, etc. for historical facts.

Amazon.com: All Abraham's Children: Changing Mormon Conceptions of Race and Lineage: Armand L. Mauss: Books (Highly recommend this one)

Amazon.com: Abraham in Egypt (Nibley, Hugh, Works. V. 14.): Hugh Nibley, Gary P. Gillum, Michael P. Lyon: Books

Amazon.com: The Dawning of a Brighter Day: Alexander B. Morrison: Books

Genesis Group

Happy reading and discovering.

Edited August 18, 2008 by Doctor Steuss

[Traveler]

Another question,i want to get out the way!

Don't take this question.In a Negative way!Thankyou...

I meant *Problem*

The problem concerned the Blacks and the priesthood. Anciently only those of the house of Aaron were given the priesthood. From bible scriptures man was divided into three types of peoples or nations. This is given following the flood and comes from the sons of Noah. There was an established order where some were first then some second and others last. As we understand the methods of G-d the orders will be reversed so that the last will become the first and the first will become last.

The covenant of the priesthood will come first to some, second to others and last to some. But it is important to understand that in the full order of things the order will play again in reverse. I am sorry that some things are not politically correct and that because of some things some feel they are better than others and others think they are less than others. I do not think that was the intent of the orders.

The Traveler

[Palerider]

I would check out BlackLDS.org...its an awesome site...

[Mahonri1]

The problem was racism, pure and simple. No Revelation as we believe it was ever stated. Brigham Young made slavery legal in Utah Territory. Brigham Young taught "one drop of negro blood" disqualified one from ever holding the Priesthood. Brigham Young taught Negroes would never have the opportunity to hold the Priesthood until after all other inhabitants of the earth had been offered it first.

Brigham Young taught that intermarriage with anyone with negro blood was punishable by death on the spot.

Nothing in the teachings of Jesus says anything like this.

Kimball merely looked at is rationally and changed the policy. All the lies and excuses don't stand up in the light of day as anything other than blatant racism. Nothing excuses this practice.

"Leadership" did not lead anything but taught prejudice, fear and racism. A sad commentary on those who would be 'inspired leaders'.

The big push for changing the policy was BYU football and basketball having games cancelled by schools that refused to play against a racist institution. This cost money and that is the one thing the Brethren understand above all else. Lose money, lose power. So, the policy was changed.

Joseph Smith ordained at least one black man. If it was a commandment he would not have done so.

[BenRaines]

Wow it is good to know that it was for BYU football and basketball that the policy was changed. Not for moral reasons or revelation. That sure is a revelation to me.

Ben Raines

[Brenton]

I seem to remember reading that sometimes blacks were ordained to the priesthood before the revelation that all races should recieve the priesthood.

Is this correct? Or was it flat out no, with white people only?

[bytor2112]

The problem was racism, pure and simple. No Revelation as we believe it was ever stated. Brigham Young made slavery legal in Utah Territory. Brigham Young taught "one drop of negro blood" disqualified one from ever holding the Priesthood. Brigham Young taught Negroes would never have the opportunity to hold the Priesthood until after all other inhabitants of the earth had been offered it first.

Brigham Young taught that intermarriage with anyone with negro blood was punishable by death on the spot.

Nothing in the teachings of Jesus says anything like this.

Kimball merely looked at is rationally and changed the policy. All the lies and excuses don't stand up in the light of day as anything other than blatant racism. Nothing excuses this practice.

"Leadership" did not lead anything but taught prejudice, fear and racism. A sad commentary on those who would be 'inspired leaders'.

The big push for changing the policy was BYU football and basketball having games cancelled by schools that refused to play against a racist institution. This cost money and that is the one thing the Brethren understand above all else. Lose money, lose power. So, the policy was changed.

Joseph Smith ordained at least one black man. If it was a commandment he would not have done so.

Why don't you just announce that you are an ANTI instead of pretending to be a Saint. I bought your question about the JS manual as sincere....I should have known with the sharp tone of the commentary. Oh and by the way, you misrepresented what the manual said.....I am guessing that was intentional.

Edited August 19, 2008 by bytor2112

[Moksha]

I seem to remember reading that sometimes blacks were ordained to the priesthood before the revelation that all races should recieve the priesthood.

Is this correct? Or was it flat out no, with white people only?

Breton, listen to this podcast Mormon Stories Podcast Mormon Stories # 026: Blacks and the LDS Priesthood–An Interview with Darius Gray and Margaret Young and you will become the expert. Quick summary to your question: Yes, blacks were ordained to the Priesthood before, through a comedy of errors, it was withheld for 150 years.

[rameumptom]

My view on it is that Brigham Young, a convert to the LDS Church, brought with him some of the views his previous Christian faith had. It was a very common belief in the 19th century among most Christians that blacks were descended from Cain and Canaan (son of Ham). Brigham Young interpreted certain passages in the Bible and Book of Abraham to mean this, and so believed that a ban on blacks holding the priesthood ought to be in place.

There were several LDS prophets that reviewed this belief, including David O. McKay, and found there was no revelatory basis for this decision. However, the Lord allowed the ban to continue, probably because the Church did not need another reason for people to destroy them. After the world and the Church were ready for Civil Rights, and as the Church and temples began spreading into areas with large black communities (the South and Brazil), the Lord saw fit to lift the ban. The Church was strong enough to bring in blacks, now that racism was muted by Civil Rights, and the Church was beginning to go global.

Given that the ban was lifted 30 years ago, it is our hope to get beyond that period and move forward. I was blessed with being able to help change the missionary work in Alabama in the 1980s, in a stake mission presidency that decided to actively seek black proselytes, even though many members were still caught up in racist attitudes. Today, you will see black leaders throughout the South, where wards and branches are mixed whites and blacks. Meanwhile, most other Christian churches are still segregated socially by blacks and whites. We have advanced much further along this path than most of our Christian brothers.

Even with this background, it does not compare to the racist backgrounds of some other Christian churches. The Southern Baptist church broke away from the American Baptist church specifically over the issue of slavery and "states' rights." There were definitely more traditional Christians in the KKK than there were LDS. But while we should never forget the past, we need to have some closure on all sides. We need to move forward, rejoicing in the knowledge that men can change for the better as the blinders fall from their eyes.

I recommend you learn more about this at the following: Why This Web Site :: Blacklds.org

[rameumptom]

I would note that Joseph Smith ordained Elijah Abel and a few others to the priesthood. Elijah was a Seventy, went on a few missions, and continued serving in the priesthood even in Salt Lake. However, as Brigham Young developed his policy, he denied Abel the opportunity to enter the temple.

I do not think the ban being lifted had anything to do with BYU sports. It had everything to do with temples being built in Brazil and Atlanta. In the Southeast, the population is almost half black in many areas, affecting missionary work, etc. In Brazil, where many people are mixed race, it was difficult to determine just who was able to be ordained to the priesthood or enter the temple, or not. It became the perfect time, as Pres Kimball realized the Church was going global and would have more issues like this, to pray about the Lord lifting the ban.

I have heard Elders Bruce R. McConkie and David B Haight speak on this subject. Eleven of the Twelve Apostles were present when the revelation was given in 1978. Elder McConkie expressed it as "greater than the witness of the Son." Elder Haight confirmed that witness, and continued to do so often in General Conferences, up until his death just a few years ago.

For those who claim it was a business decision and not a revelation: such a shame that some people are so calloused and bitter against the Church and its leaders - even when they do what is right. I would hope that they have never sinned or been mistaken in their own lives, as otherwise such a harsh conjecture would potentially bounce back at them as insincerity.

We do not claim our prophets to be perfect nor infallible. But we do believe them to be good and called of God. Hopefully a decent dialogue can occur here, rather than more embittered attacks. Many have gotten past the past, and move forward in faith. Just try reading Darius Gray's testimony sometime - who joined the Church long before the ban was lifted! Or how about Gladys Knight's testimony of the Church? They know the Church's past, yet still believe in modern prophets. Is that irony or a strong witness that God works through imperfect people? While they seek to deal with racism and such issues constructively, it is sad that some can only accuse and belittle.

[breeb]

I think it really helps to know Brigham Young as well. And I agree with most everyone. I have looked at Blacklds.org and I think it is an awesome site. Go to it. It will really help to hear it straight from them.

[Mahonri1]

"Not for moral reasons or revelation. That sure is a revelation to me."

Glad it isn't a revelation to you. It was not a revelation to the brethren either. NO "Thus says the Lord" anywhere around the statement of Spencer W. Kimball.

Nothing about this at all until BYU started having trouble scheduling the games and protests were held at many they played.

If God wanted blacks to hold the Priesthood {rememb er, Joseph Smith ordained at least one without heavenly punishment or penalties) he would have made it clear at the time. He did not. Even the brethren surrounding Pres Kimball said it was 'a policy', with none other like McConkie, Jos Fielding and a few others keeping up the facade that it was 'the Lords will'.

It was a financial decision. How could "one drop of negro blood" be sold to intermixed populations the world over? How could nice 'white and delightsome' LDS temple recommend holders in the US who got into genealogy and found a black ancestor 6 generations ago suddenly be denied their recommends? It is about the money just like any other corporation.

Edited August 19, 2008 by Maya
I dont think wewant anyone to call even popes nutt chells please mind your wording and respect your neighbour!

[Jenamarie]

You know, for someone who claims to be LDS, your comments about the church thus far on these boards have been remarkably derogatory.

Might I ask why?

[rameumptom]

Mahonri,

You are welcome to your opinion. Could you turn down the acidic attacks somewhat, please? They do not help in having a discussion, which we are having here.

You will note that on blacklds, org, no one claims it was about BYU sports. In fact, this is the very first time I've heard this claim. While I know they were limited on who would play them, can you back up your statement that this was a "financial" decision? The Church brings in billions every year in tithing and investments. If they were a bunch of racists, as you suggest, then why allow the change for just a few million dollars a year? It doesn't make sense.

If the Church wanted lots of money, why doesn't it open BYUs doors to more government money by agreeing with Title 9 and other rules? Why not allow homosexuals and free love onto campus, and bring in more money? In fact, why not lift all sexual bans in the Church, and encourage more baptisms so there's more tithing coming in from people of all persuasions? Why is the Church being dumb enough to finance the anti-gay marriage laws in California, when that could be a lucrative source of income?

Clearly, your claim to BYU sports falls very short, given the Church's strong stances now and in the past that have shown that money doesn't matter.

[Guest Seraphim]

"Not for moral reasons or revelation. That sure is a revelation to me."

Glad it isn't a revelation to you. It was not a revelation to the brethren either. NO "Thus says the Lord" anywhere around the statement of Spencer W. Kimball.

Nothing about this at all until BYU started having trouble scheduling the games and protests were held at many they played.

If God wanted blacks to hold the Priesthood {rememb er, Joseph Smith ordained at least one without heavenly punishment or penalties) he would have made it clear at the time. He did not. Even the brethren surrounding Pres Kimball said it was 'a policy', with none other than nutcases like McConkie, Jos Fielding and a few others keeping up the facade that it was 'the Lords will'.

It was a financial decision. How could "one drop of negro blood" be sold to intermixed populations the world over? How could nice 'white and delightsome' LDS temple recommend holders in the US who got into genealogy and found a black ancestor 6 generations ago suddenly be denied their recommends? It is about the money just like any other corporation.

1. Do not post, upload, or otherwise submit anything to the site that is derogatory towards The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its teachers, or its leaders. Anti-LDS Propaganda will not be tolerated anywhere.

Seraphim

[rameumptom]

From the talks I've heard from Elders McConkie and Haight, it was a revelation. And it was a big one that moved them extremely.

Elder Haight said at the April 1996 General Conference:

I would hope someday that our great-grandson Mark and others of our posterity would have similar spiritual experiences and that they would feel the spiritual power and influence of this gospel. I hope that Mark and others will have opportunities such as I had when I was in the temple when President Spencer W. Kimball received the revelation regarding the priesthood. I was the junior member of the Quorum of the Twelve. I was there. I was there with the outpouring of the Spirit in that room so strong that none of us could speak afterwards. We just left quietly to go back to the office. No one could say anything because of the powerful outpouring of the heavenly spiritual experience.

But just a few hours after the announcement was made to the press, I was assigned to attend a stake conference in Detroit, Michigan. When my plane landed in Chicago, I noticed an edition of the Chicago Tribune on the newsstand. The headline in the paper said, “Mormons Give Blacks Priesthood.” And the subheading said, “President Kimball Claims to Have Received a Revelation.” I bought a copy of the newspaper. I stared at one word in that subheading—claims. It stood out to me just like it was in red neon. As I walked along the hallway to make my plane connection, I thought, Here I am now in Chicago walking through this busy airport, yet I was a witness to this revelation. I was there. I witnessed it. I felt that heavenly influence. I was part of it. Little did the editor of that newspaper realize the truth of that revelation when he wrote, “… Claims to Have Received a Revelation.” Little did he know, or the printer, or the man who put the ink on the press, or the one who delivered the newspaper—little did any of them know that it was truly a revelation from God. Little did they know what I knew because I was a witness to it.

I hope that clears up any presumptuous claims.

[a-train]

The problems were only slight in the 1800's, things got bad in the 1900's.

-a-train

[Maya]

Anyone remember Josep Smith was making a party, a political party that would make balcks free and give them all... also all WOMEN the right to VOTE! That was bad...right?? Maybe Martin Luther King was not the only one killed for liberance of blacks... it wouldnot suprise me a bit!

[Moksha]

How could "one drop of Negro blood" be sold to intermixed populations the world over?

This did present an insurmountable barrier in proclaiming the Gospel to the world, did it not? Especially in a world that had grown more tolerant of human diversity. We had to first rid ourselves of past prejudices.