Pride

[Tamrajh]

This is a discussion we had once in chat, quite a while ago, but I want to open it up on the board. We know that having pride in our hearts is something we've been warned against; that it's not a good thing to have and being prideful is mentioned many times in the scriptures as being a fault. We should be humble. However, when it comes to my kids doing something that I feel is spectacular, I can't help but fill up with pride.

For instance, tonight my 15 year old son will be honored at his Eagle Scout Court of Honor. He has earned 34 badges, in comparison to the 21 that are required for the Eagle, and he has pushed himself to do this. Well, all except for his project; I did have to push him for that because he got hooked on an Internet game. Nonetheless, he decided he wanted to become an Eagle Scout by the time he was 15 so he pushed himself to earn all the badges and do everything he needed to. He was missing one badge by his 15th birthday due to scheduling conflicts, but I think he's done really well for himself.

And yes, I'm proud of him!

But then I feel guilty because I know I'm not supposed to be prideful. So obviously I'm missing something. Help me understand this concept and conflict please so I can overcome it and be done with it.

Thanks in advance!

Oh, did I tell you my son is getting his Eagle tonight? LOL

[Gwen]

i see a very fine line in the use of the words "proud", and "prideful"...................... kinda like the difference in being "in control" and "controlling".........though they are very similar in nature, they are not interchangeable, they do have different definitions/applications.....however, i'm not sure that actually explains anything outside of my own head..........lol

congrats to your son and his eagle.

[Connie]

I don't see anything prideful in being proud of your son, as long as it's not a "my son is better than yours" or "look at what a great parent i am" kind of attitude. Pride is competitive and hateful in nature, and i don't see those attitudes in your description.

Here is a great talk from Pres. Ezra Taft Benson on pride, quite famous actually (at least in the church):

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Beware of Pride

[PapilioMemnon]

Tamrajh,

I think people use "proud" to express the satisfaction and great joy we feel and take in our children when they choose to do something good and right.

Connerific, this is indeed a GREAT talk! Pride is much more than what we think of it to be, the common elements we normally think it is. And we must be very careful with it because it is spiritually deteriorating... it does kill the spirit!

Edited August 22, 2008 by PapilioMemnon

[Mykdiver]

i see a very fine line in the use of the words "proud", and "prideful"...................... kinda like the difference in being "in control" and "controlling".........though they are very similar in nature, they are not interchangeable, they do have different definitions/applications.....however, i'm not sure that actually explains anything outside of my own head..........lol

congrats to your son and his eagle.

Exactly! I agree 100%! You took the words right out of my mouth.

[Tamrajh]

Thanks all!

[dazed-and-confused]

hi tam....i agree with so much here.....so ...whats the difference between pride and arrogance....be proud of you son...but not arrogant about it.....be proud of yourself (to an extent...lol)...but not arrogant about it....is just feeling good knowing you've done a good job prideful?....hope not....but dont feel arrogant about it.....my 2cents.

[Guest tomk]

This is a discussion we had once in chat, quite a while ago, but I want to open it up on the board. We know that having pride in our hearts is something we've been warned against; that it's not a good thing to have and being prideful is mentioned many times in the scriptures as being a fault. We should be humble. However, when it comes to my kids doing something that I feel is spectacular, I can't help but fill up with pride.

For instance, tonight my 15 year old son will be honored at his Eagle Scout Court of Honor. He has earned 34 badges, in comparison to the 21 that are required for the Eagle, and he has pushed himself to do this. Well, all except for his project; I did have to push him for that because he got hooked on an Internet game. Nonetheless, he decided he wanted to become an Eagle Scout by the time he was 15 so he pushed himself to earn all the badges and do everything he needed to. He was missing one badge by his 15th birthday due to scheduling conflicts, but I think he's done really well for himself.

And yes, I'm proud of him!

But then I feel guilty because I know I'm not supposed to be prideful. So obviously I'm missing something. Help me understand this concept and conflict please so I can overcome it and be done with it.

Thanks in advance!

Oh, did I tell you my son is getting his Eagle tonight? LOL

There is nothing wrong with being happy for your children's accomplishments. Our Father in Heaven gives us the example:

• <LI class=searchitem>Matt. 3: 17

  17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

  <LI class=searchitem>Matt. 17: 5

  5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

  <LI class=searchitem>Mark 1: 11

  11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

  <LI class=searchitem>Philip. 4: 18

  18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.

  <LI class=searchitem>Heb. 13: 21

  21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

  <LI class=searchitem>2 Pet. 1: 17

  17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

• 3 Ne. 11: 7

  7 Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him.

Pride is not expressed in the accomplishments of others, but in the accomplishment of self without the involvement of God.

Alma 26: 10, 35

10 And it came to pass that when Ammon had said these words, his brother Aaron rebuked him, saying: Ammon, I fear that thy joy doth carry thee away unto boasting.

• • •

35 Now have we not reason to rejoice? Yea, I say unto you, there never were men that had so great reason to rejoice as we, since the world began; yea, and my joy is carried away, even unto boasting in my God; for he has all power, all wisdom, and all understanding; he comprehendeth all things, and he is a merciful Being, even unto salvation, to those who will repent and believe on his name.

[Hemidakota]

This is a discussion we had once in chat, quite a while ago, but I want to open it up on the board. We know that having pride in our hearts is something we've been warned against; that it's not a good thing to have and being prideful is mentioned many times in the scriptures as being a fault. We should be humble. However, when it comes to my kids doing something that I feel is spectacular, I can't help but fill up with pride.

For instance, tonight my 15 year old son will be honored at his Eagle Scout Court of Honor. He has earned 34 badges, in comparison to the 21 that are required for the Eagle, and he has pushed himself to do this. Well, all except for his project; I did have to push him for that because he got hooked on an Internet game. Nonetheless, he decided he wanted to become an Eagle Scout by the time he was 15 so he pushed himself to earn all the badges and do everything he needed to. He was missing one badge by his 15th birthday due to scheduling conflicts, but I think he's done really well for himself.

And yes, I'm proud of him!

But then I feel guilty because I know I'm not supposed to be prideful. So obviously I'm missing something. Help me understand this concept and conflict please so I can overcome it and be done with it.

Thanks in advance!

Oh, did I tell you my son is getting his Eagle tonight? LOL

Imagine the parent who will have a prophet son that will usher in the Second Coming or parent having a babe that was part of the Godhead - namely the Holy Ghost? These two of which will happen unexpectedly in their lives. Should they proud of them? Perhaps...

Yes! Pride can be a ‘canker to the soul’ if it is not in check. If it does become a 'canker to the soul', Elder Neal A. Maxwell ['Deadly Sin of Pride'] once wrote;

"Therefore pride compasseth them about as a chain." (Psalm 73:6)

Just as meekness is in all our virtues, so pride is in all our sins. Whatever its momentary and alluring guise, pride is the enemy, "the first of the sins."

According to The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, "at least six Hebrew roots contain the idea of pride, and almost all of them mean 'to lift up,' 'to be high.'" These are translated into English as arrogance, loftiness, presumption, boasting. A number of Old Testament passages "point toward pride as the virtual ground of sin."

Not only must Latter-day Saints be concerned about pride in all its usual manifestations, but we need also to be particularly on guard against that pride which arises out of our sought-for spiritual status or our achievements, such as they are, having come thus far. Thus it is always important for us to remember Paul's counsel: "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." (1 Corinthians 10:12.)

Pride should be a real concern for those already converted since, unless one is meek, "by and by he is offended" because of the word. (Matthew 13:21.) The concern over what has been called spiritual pride was a concern of Jesus, who addressed a parable "unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others." (Luke 18:9.)

The pervasiveness of pride and the degree to which it is persistent in our lives must ever put us on guard, reminding us, as did Paul, not to be "highminded," for we "stand by faith." (Romans 11:20.) Faith dissolves very quickly when meekness disappears and pride takes over. Thus, if pride is "the first of the sins," then meekness is a premiere virtue.

Henry Fairlie, in writing of the pervasiveness of pride, observed that it is "an assertion of self-sufficiency—a denial of one's need for community with others, which is in fact a form of selfishness, since it is always accompanied by a refusal of one's obligation of community with others." Fairlie also observed that pride "is a sin of neglect: It causes us to ignore others. It is a sin of aggression: It provokes us to hurt others. It is a sin of condescension: It makes us patronize others." This correlates with a prophetic condemnation of a proud, insensitive, and unnoticing people: "Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?" (Mormon 8:39.)

The gospel seeks to make us a community of saints, a city on a hill, but pride and selfishness produce just the opposite result. As Fairlie pointed out, "If all the sins are causes of solitariness, Pride is the first begetter of it. . . . There is today evidence of this all around us, in the vacancy of lives that are lived only for themselves."

One reason to be particularly on guard against pride is that "the devilish strategy of Pride is that it attacks us, not in our weakest points, but in our strongest. It is preeminently the sin of the noble mind." Not only of the noble mind, but also of the semi-righteous.

Those of us who are too comfortable with our marketplace economy, with all of its efficiencies and advantages, need to beware of what can happen when the marketplace mentality colludes and conspires to produce an even more proud, sensual, and selfish people. In such circumstances, Fairlie warned, "when people begin to look for exotic and terrible forms of self-pleasing, our commercial societies are at once in the marketplace to supply them."

Pride is decried in its early stages by the Lord and His prophets. Given the gravity of pride, prophets are quick to notice even its first protrusions, because such warning signs foretell of dissensions that can grow quickly and steadily like a fungus. We read of such problems among the Nephites: "Now it came to pass in the forty and third year of the reign of the judges, there was no contention among the people of Nephi save it were a little pride which was in the church, which did cause some little dissensions among the people, which affairs were settled in the ending of the forty and third year. . . . And it came to pass that the fifty and second year ended in peace also, save it were the exceedingly great pride which had gotten into the hearts of the people; and it was because of their exceedingly great riches and their prosperity in the land; and it did grow upon them from day to day." (Helaman 3:1, 36.)

In view of later events, one wonders about the warning given to Oliver Cowdery about his need to "beware of pride." (D&C 23:1.) Oliver had contributed so very much, yet his later loss of place in the kingdom, according to Brigham Young, occurred because he was proud. "I have seen men who belonged to this kingdom," President Young said, "and who really thought that if they were not associated with it, it could not progress. One man especially, whom I now think of, who was peculiarly gifted in self-reliance and general ability. He said as much to the Prophet Joseph a number of times as to say that if he left this kingdom, it could not progress any further. I speak of Oliver Cowdery. He forsook it, and it still rolled on, and still triumphed over every opposing foe, and bore all safely all those who clung to it." Yet, happily, Oliver was meek enough both to humbly rejoin the Church and to testify, just before his death, of its truthfulness.

Scriptural warnings often couple pride and selfishness. (See, for example, D&C 56:8.) Pride can be characteristic of a whole race and will cause one of the hingepoint happenings in human history. As far as the spread of the gospel is concerned, the time will come when the Lord will take His gospel elsewhere from the proud and resistant Gentiles. He told the Nephites: "At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them." (3 Nephi 16:10.)

Before the millennial time when the arrogancy of the proud will cease, the Gentiles will be in a circumstance of "great pride, unto boasting, and unto great swelling, envyings, strifes, malice, persecutions, and murders, and all manner of iniquities." (Helaman 13:22.)

The gigantic, global collapse that is yet to come will not be that of a failing stock market, but the fall of hardened mind-sets and collective pride when it all finally tumbles. Nephi testified: "It came to pass that I saw and bear record, that the great and spacious building was the pride of the world; and it fell, and the fall thereof was exceedingly great. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (1 Nephi 11:36.)

However "large and spacious" that building may be, it is a third-rate hotel whose occupants are all dressed up but have no place to go. (1 Nephi 8:27.) Thus, one day He who was raised on the third day will raze this third-rate hotel! Furthermore, the time will come when "the Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity." (Matthew 13:41.) Thus, rather than being offended, we should take care not to offend.

Happily, there are some on-the-record and heartening moments when a whole people have been checked as to their pride. For example, "after Alma . . . established the church at Sidom, . . . the people were checked as to the pride of their hearts, and began to humble themselves before God, and began to assemble themselves together at their sanctuaries to worship God before the altar, watching and praying continually, that they might be delivered from Satan, and from death, and from destruction." (Alma 15:17.)

Dissenters and defectors even have a special form of pride, losing so quickly their appreciation for what they already have. In Alma we read: "And thus we can plainly discern, that after a people have been once enlightened by the Spirit of God, and have had great knowledge of things pertaining to righteousness, and then have fallen away into sin and transgression, they become more hardened, and thus their state becomes worse than though they had never known these things." (Alma 24:30.)

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: "Strange as it may appear at first thought, yet it is no less strange than true, that notwithstanding all the professed determination to live godly, apostates after turning from the faith of Christ, unless they have speedily repented, have sooner or later fallen into the snares of the wicked one, and have been left destitute of the Spirit of God, to manifest their wickedness in the eyes of multitudes. From apostates the faithful have received the severest persecutions."

Pride can begin incipiently and gradually, but with frightening prospects, as Joseph Smith pointed out: "The moment we revolt at anything which comes from God, the devil takes power."

The case of James Covill illustrates the importance of meekness with regard to submissiveness. (See D&C 39-40.) Covill offered himself to the Lord, promising to do whatever he was asked to do. Though he was called to work in Ohio, he apparently had other ideas; it was just a short time until he had broken his promise to the Lord. Covill's anticipatory fear of persecution—before any persecution even commenced—may have dissolved such meekness as he had. Besides, the meek can see persecution with wider eyes. Brigham Young recalled: "I told the people that if they [those who opposed the Church] would let us alone, and not raise any persecutions, we would go peaceably along among the people and preach to them; but that just as sure as they fought us and opposed this work we would actually revolutionize the world a great deal quicker than if they let us alone. I have stuck to that faith ever since; for every time that there has been an opposition raised against this work, God has caused it to swell like seed in the ground."

Jonah sought to avoid going to Nineveh where he was called, seeking instead to go to Tarshish. Yet it was in Nineveh that he received one of the great lessons of his life that provided such an insight for us all. The meek will go where they are called; their obedience will see them through when reason and past experiences, by themselves, are not enough to sustain them. There are on record more examples of individuals who have meekly turned around in response to a call to serve or to repent or to follow divine instruction than examples of groups doing such. Nineveh, however, is a dramatic exception to the pattern, as are some brief turnarounds in the Book of Mormon. It is a heroic thing for individuals to reverse themselves, their attitudes, and their patterns of behavior in order to pursue discipleship; it is truly remarkable for a whole people to do so.

Self-control depends upon meekness. Otherwise, "an angry man stirreth up strife, and a furious man aboundeth in transgression." (Proverbs 29:22.) A furious man is out of control. Individuals who are meek may not always decipher what is happening to them or around them; however, even though they do not "know the meaning of all things," they know that the Lord loves them. (1 Nephi 11:17.) They may feel overwhelmed, but they are not out of control. In those moments, it is important for us to remember His counsel: "Be still, and know that I am God." (Psalm 46:10.) Articulate discipleship has a dimension of silent certitude!

The rest promised by Jesus, though not including an absence of adversity or tutoring, does give us that peace which flows from humbleness of mind. The meek management of power and responsibility relieves us of the heavy chains of pride and protects us from the fatigue of being offended—to note but a few benefits. There are many persons just waiting to be offended: certain they will not be treated fairly, they almost invite the verification of their expectation.

President Harold B. Lee, in describing a meek person, observed that such an individual "is not easily provoked or irritated, and is forbearing under injury or annoyance." The meek man, he added, is "the man of complete self-mastery."

In the topsy-turvy last days, it is important to realize that as "the eternal purposes of the Lord shall roll on," His disciples will surely know what it is to be tumbled. (Mormon 8:22.) It will be no time to be proud, especially when the tumblings may not at the moment seem purposeful. Yet the Lord's work will roll on; His meek disciples will understand.

Rocks of offense or stones of stumbling keep the proud from making spiritual progress. No less destructive is what might be called the gravel of grumpiness, which keeps us off balance and annoyingly turns ankles. Even though we do not fully fall or stumble, we progress more slowly, painfully, and fitfully. The meek, however, make stepping-stones of stumbling blocks.

In moments of truth, when meekness matters, other forces, including pride, flow into the chemistry of that moment. Take, for instance, the matter of receiving correct counsel, whether given by a spouse, a family member, a friend, or a Church leader. Often the counsel, even when spoken in love, is resisted by the recipient who—chained by pride—focuses instead upon the imperfections of the person giving the counsel.

In another situation, the recipient may have much pride in the position he or she has already taken and refuse to deny himself or herself the continuation of that conduct, lifestyle, or attitude, which denial is at the heart of the solution. However, those who fear losing face cannot have His image in their countenances. (Alma 5:14.)

In yet another circumstance, the recipient may, instead of listening to the counsel given, be nursing some past grievance upon which he or she would prefer to focus rather than the real issue at hand.

Whatever the case, experience suggests that recipients of counsel may at the moment of truth feel one or more of these and other restraining forces at work. One force would, by itself, be enough in the absence of meekness, but several combined make meekness crucial. No wonder pride is such a chain! It can be a spreading and encircling chain, "a root of bitterness springing up [to] trouble you, and thereby many be defiled." (Hebrews 12:15.)

In such settings, experience also suggests the importance not only of meekness but also of the presence of the Spirit. Neither advice-giver nor circumstances can be perfect. Only the Spirit can leap across such deficiencies and convey the message lovingly and yet forcefully. The Lord told the elders of the Church in 1831, "Why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth? Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together." (D&C 50:21-22.)

Absent mutual meekness, the counsel given may not only go unheeded, but, in fact, may even be resented.

Not only are there individual moments of truth, but there are also collective. As we are meek, we will have a perspective about that moment yet to come when the "whole human family of Adam" will stand before the judgment seat of Christ. (Mormon 3:20.) But with meekness also comes sober realization that we are our "own judges, whether to do good or evil." (Alma 41:7.) If we are meek, our minds will not be darkened, and we can judge rightly because it is "given unto [us] to judge, that [we] may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain . . . as the daylight from the dark night." (Moroni 7:15.) At that remarkable, sobering, and exhilarating moment, yet future, there will be no proud grievances with the justice of God. "The time shall come when all shall see the salvation of the Lord; when every nation, kindred, tongue, and people shall see eye to eye and shall confess before God that his judgments are just." (Mosiah 16:1.) Meanwhile, so far as this life is concerned, as the Prophet Joseph Smith said, "A man is his own tormentor." Likewise, "all will suffer until they obey Christ himself." Pride merely defers the pain, like a debt that must be paid—now or later.

[mightynancy]

Warmest congratulations to your son, Tamra!

Good works are cause for rejoicing, IMO.

[Tamrajh]

Warmest congratulations to your son, Tamra!

Good works are cause for rejoicing, IMO.

TeeHee THANKS!!! :)

[KrazyKay]

I also want to say congratulations to your son Tamra.

I agree with what others have said, there is a difference between being proud of an accomplishment - especially an accomplishment that is hard to attain (such as Eagle Scout or a college degree), and being prideful (the "I'm better than you" type of attitude).

When my daughter turned 8 and decided to be baptized, I was very proud of her - but I did not have a "I'm the best parent because my daughter decided to be baptized" attitude. It was her day and I let her have the glory of that day with me on the side showing that I was happy for her decision. Yes we let our daughter decide for herself if she wanted to be baptized or not and did not push it on her. It was her decision.

I guess the point I was making, being proud of our children in their accomplishments is ok as long as we don't try to put ourselves into the spotlight by being prideful with a "Look how great of a parent I am" attitude.